2014 QB Draft

Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by WVDolphan, Oct 28, 2013.

  1. WVDolphan

    WVDolphan A True Fan

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    Its almost November which of course is the annual signal for draft talk time for phins fans.

    Id love to hear from Dr. Slimm on this one as the phins of course need to be carefully looking at this years crop of QBs. We all shouldve listened to him when he had reservations about reaching for Tannehill at pick 8 in 2012. Im sorry I didnt, and Dr. Slimm........ Im listening. Where do we go here? Im not familiar with all of these QBs and honestly of the ones Ive seen, Aaron Murray is the only one I think could play in the NFL, Im just not sure if he is a top notch player.

    I know there is Bridgewater, but it seems he will go early. Personally, I dont want him anyway. I thought Bridgewater was a good player back when he was a freshman. I remember getting crucified in these parts when I told mountaineer fans he was better than Geno's Myth. I dont see Bridgewater as an elite NFL QB though. I personally wouldnt take him in round 1 but, it appears we are safe from him because he will likely go early.

    Then there is Murray. Im not sure where he is projecting right now. When I saw this kid years ago I thought he was an NFL QB. The only hesitation I had with him is he had a tendency to throw INTs at the worst possible times. He seems to have broken that habit lately, but Im still not 100% on him. If I had to say right now, he would be the guy I would take though if he falls to us. I know he has the arm and he seems like a smart kid.

    I saw a post by Slimm about Manziel earlier and I think he is right. Manziel is a special player, Im just not sure he can play in the NFL with that size. Im not sure he is 1st round material either. Great competitor, but he needs to curb the attitude a bit. A lot of maturing still to do with this kid.

    Slimm, can you give us the run down on this years QB class. Break it down A-Z if you would please. Where will these guys fall in draft position and who would you see as a good pick for the phins?
     
  2. MadDog 88

    MadDog 88 TANNERECTION!!!! Donator

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    If Tannehill is not the answer and he was drafted by Ireland, then the first course of action is firing Ireland. If he missed once on the most important position you don't give him a second chance. Obviously you then install a coaching system and evaluate the requirement you need at QB.

    As for drafting a QB I am all for drafting one each year until they get it right. Curious to see how the 2014 class lines up because as of right now, there doesn't appear to be a can't miss guy. Manziel is a nice idea and I am starting to dismiss the notion that you need great size in todays NFL. I echo the concern with his lack of maturity.
     
  3. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Watch David Fales, Keith Wenning, or Jimmy Garappolo if you get a chance.
     
  4. Kdawg954

    Kdawg954 The D will RushYa, Like Moscow Donator

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    You could argue Ireland had Henne and Tannehill . . . a 3rd QB is out of the question. If Ross were even to entertain the thought of giving him a 3rd choice we then would know who the real problem is.
     
  5. Mudder1310

    Mudder1310 A True Fan

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    Derek Carr is another cat getting a lot of run. Manziel, Mariota, Hundley if they come out. Logan Thomas has talent. Lots of interesting QBs in the next couple drafts.
     
  6. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I don't think Mariota has the mental makeup of an NFL QB. Seems like a really nice guy, does well academically, and he has great physical traits. To me, he looks shaky when things break down. That offense is such a machine that you rarely see things break down, but when they do, he doesn't handle those situations with grace. I think that Oregon offense would struggle against Alabama. I doubt they'd score over 30. I can see a plight similar to RG3's for Mariota. Looks great for a few games running a read-option offense. Gets hurt. Coaches try to protect him, and everyone sees the flaws the unsustainable system was masking.

    His antithesis (in that regard) would be Johnny Manziel, and that's the only reason he's able to light up Alabama. He can consistently make the play outside the play - though he's done a much better job this year of getting the ball out of his hands quickly, when it's the best play. Nick Saban is too great to beaten by a system and some fast players. He's going to take away options, make adjustments, and make you feel uncomfortable. You need a great effort by a QB to beat that with any type of consistency. Newton did it a few years ago, because he's a physical freak with great running instincts. I actually think the traits that allow Manziel to be so competitive with that Alabama D are more translatable to the NFL than Newton's. Instincts, vision, feet, ball placement, and veins that pump ice water. After Slimm wrote that really terrific response on Manziel, I mentioned that Manziel pretty well fits the description of Bill Walsh's ideal QB. In fact, when reading through the list of tangible and intangible attributes that Walsh looks for in a QB, the two QB's who immediately came to mind were Joe Montana and Johnny Manziel. He's definitely walking a fine line with his ego. As it stands, I think it's one of the key things that fuels his competitive drive, but if his ego gets any bigger, I'd start to worry a bit. To me, the upside is Joe Montana. He's definitely not as clean as you'd like for a #1 overall pick, but if I were the Jaguars, I'd be happy to take him #1.

    I don't think Hundley should enter the 2014 draft. Think his mechanics started breaking down these last two weeks (when I started noticing, anyway). Against Nebraska, he looked really clean. Not a lot of wasted motion in his delivery, used his feet well, played on balance. I understand struggling against better competition, but if you're losing your mechanics and playing off balance against PAC 12 D's, I think that's a serious problem when looking forward to the NFL.
     
  7. Mudder1310

    Mudder1310 A True Fan

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    Hundley, Mariota, and Manziel are all sophs which makes me think they all go back to school, though Manziel probably is done with school as a whole. I think Mariota gives you everything Manziel does except that killer instinct. He makes less mistakes but doesn't do the truly incredible.
     
  8. WVDolphan

    WVDolphan A True Fan

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    Im not familiar with these players. Could you expand on this topic a bit?
     
  9. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    I'll say this in order to add to my take on Manziel.... he is still developing as a passer. He's just breaking SEC records while he's doing it.

    Do not lose sight of the fact that this is still a kid who's only a redshirt sophomore with 20 collegiate football starts under his belt. It would be 21 if he hadn't been suspended by Kevin Sumlin for the first half of the season opener against Rice.

    The difference with Manziel as opposed to a quarterback like Mariota, is that Manziel is having to lay it all on the line every week in the SEC to make up for his team's putrid defense. Mariota is typically sitting on the sidelines in the 4th quarter of Oregon's blowouts. The thing that has really come to the surface this season for Johnny Manziel, perhaps above all else, is what a fierce competitor he is. I've watched Alabama's defense make more quarterbacks literally wilt and quit in the past 5-6 years than I can ever remember. Most quarterbacks would never have made it out of that 35-14 lead Bama had on aTm.... Manziel had just thrown a pick 6 to Vinny Sunseri to make it so.

    However, it was Manziel's response from that point on that counted. He displayed incredible leadership and competitive spirit when a lot people, including myself... didn't even know if he had it. Johnny Football nearly brought his team back for the win against impossible odds. He piled up nearly 500 yards passing and almost another 100 yards on the ground in a situation where a lot of great college quarterbacks have melted against Alabama and Coach Saban's relentless onslaught. Of all the many amazing things that I've seen Manziel do on a football field, this response was easily the most impressive on me.

    He's continued to play with that edge. Watch the Ole Miss game... aTm was in big trouble, and Manziel was hurting... beat to hell and back. He kept sacrificing his body in full speed train wrecks with SEC linebackers just to achieve another critical first down when plays broke down. One of them so violent in fact, that Ole Miss's leading tackler, Serderius Bryant, didn't get up from one of 'em. Everyone in the stadium thought he broke his neck tackling Manziel.

    He gave it all against Auburn with bad shoulder. Here's my point... whether Manziel "translates" to the NFL or not is a little irrelevant to me. I'm an extremely luke warm fan of the NFL in general as it is. I like to watch Peyton Manning and Drew Brees play the quarterback position. I like to watch Calvin Johnson. I like to watch Adrian Peterson run the football. That's about it.

    However, I think everyone should just enjoy having a player like this while he's around....at least if you're a fan of college football. Because they don't come around often. It doesn't matter whether he becomes a franchise NFL quarterback or not to me. I know enough to realize how special of a talent he is.

    As for his draft stock, I only know of two quarterbacks under 6'1" that have ever been drafted in the 1st round. Rex Grossman and Michael Vick. I won't have a top 10 grade on Manziel simply based on the risk factor, both in terms of height and immaturity. He can grow mentally into a man... he's not growing any taller.

    Lastly, and I'll depart on this note.... I see at minimum 20 teams in the NFL trotting quarterbacks out every Sunday that aren't as good as Johnny Manziel. He's worth the risk in that sense alone.
     
  10. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    David Fales is a JUCO transfer that pulls the trigger for San Jose St.'s offense out on the west coast. He reminds me a lot of Aaron Rodgers during his Cal days in terms of accuracy, quick release, and mobility. He's a JUCO transfer that will have 2 years of D-1 football under his belt when he enters the draft.... just like Aaron Rodgers. He led a talentless San Jose St. team to an 11-2 record last year and a top 25 ranking. He come within 3 points of upsetting a top-10 Stanford team despite how overmatched they were from a personnel and coaching standpoint. This season, he's only played 2 games with his top receiver, Noel Grigsby. He got hurt in the 2nd game of the season and hasn't been able to make it back. Either way, he's passed for over 900 yards and 8 TD's the last 2 weeks throwing to scrubs, and no running game to speak of. What's impressive about Fales is that he's making throws downfield and into tight coverage. He's not throwing a series of bubble screens.

    Keith Wenning is Ball St.'s triggerman... and that's exactly what he does. You'll like him because he's a carbon copy of Chad Pennington. Throws that accurate, soft, catchable ball with tremendous arc. Makes brilliant decisions with the football. Big, prototype pocket passer.

    Jimmy Garappolo is the quarterback at Eastern Illinois (Tony Romo's alma mater). Blazing fast release with excellent feet. What I like the most about Garappolo is how he runs the entire offense at the line of scrimmage and forced to recognize matchups. He's going to fit in well with a team that likes to run uptempo and identify matchups that favor the offense.
     
  11. Roman529

    Roman529 Moon Runner / The 3 AM Crew

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    Nice topic.....it's never to early to talk about the draft.

    If the draft was today, we would have the 13th pick. I doubt Ireland would take a QB in round one in 2014, but if we continue to struggle, you never know.

    The best young QB's are all mobile, so I doubt we would take a Brady-P.Manning type....I think it's becoming a mobile QB league.

    I like Marcus Mariota.......good arm, speed, mobility, decision making.
     
  12. WVDolphan

    WVDolphan A True Fan

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    Totally agree on Manziel. I did not catch the Ole Miss performance.

    I too was impressed with how he responded vs. Bama. I havent seen a player take them on the way he did in a while. Youre right, it wouldve been easy to fold it up after that would be back breaking INT for a TD to put Bama up 3 scores. But, Manziel showed what he is made of in that spot.

    I was really impressed with his performance vs. Auburn. They were beating the hell out of him and he kept getting up and coming back right in their face. While the kid lacks maturity and height, he has some serious guts.

    Marcus Mariota..... pass. Im good on him and Bridgewater.

    A couple of those kids you mentioned sound interesting Slimm, especially the kid from San Jose St. I may have to, dare I say...... "put the tape on" :lol:

    Lastly, can you give me your take on Aaron Murray?
     
  13. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Real quick, I think Aaron Murray profiles as a backup at the next level. What I like most about Murray are his mechanics. He's as fundamentally sound as a college quarterback can be.... and he's mastered ball handling. He achieved this very early in his development. He's been polished since his sophomore season. He's mobile, battled tested, experienced, productive, and has excellent intangibles.

    Obviously he's short for a quarterback, and his arm is average. Underthrows the deep ball routinely because his arm just isn't quite strong enough. He's basically a little shorter and slightly more athletic version of Matt Barkley.

    I like Aaron Murray, I just don't believe he has the upside or physical tools to excel in the NFL. We've seen quarterbacks overcome height and average arm strength to be productive pros. Aaron Murray is the type of kid who's capable of doing precisely that. However, his limited physical tools and shortcomings simply do not warrant a 1st round grade. I have him in the 3rd/4th round range. Body of work in the SEC carries a lot of weight and helps his grade.
     
  14. phinfan33

    phinfan33 A True Fan

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    Ted, if you were to pick a QB for the Dolphins in the 14 draft...who would u go with? Assuming we stay with Philbin's WCO, but with a different OC and QB Coach.
     
  15. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Sliimm, does Murray remind you at all of Drew Brees?
     
  16. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    In many ways he does. I've made that comparison for Murray early in his career. However, he'll have to be Drew Brees in order to be successful in the NFL.

    The main difference I see between Murray and Brees is that Murray hasn't shown the ability to fit the ball into tight coverage when his feet aren't set. You have to be able to do that in the NFL to be an elite quarterback.
     
  17. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Yeah, that's why your 3rd-4th RD grade makes sense to me. It's probably not wise to expect someone to develop in the way that Brees has.
     
  18. Roman529

    Roman529 Moon Runner / The 3 AM Crew

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    Gil Brandt really likes Eastern Illinois Jimmy Garoppollo. Same school that Tony Romo went to. The kid has a quick release and has put up great stats. Can't say I have seen him play.
     
  19. FearTheBeard

    FearTheBeard FearTheBurke

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    How bout focus on other positions that we need? And not drive the closest thing we've had to a good quarterback since Danny (and Pennington).
     
  20. JJM_7

    JJM_7 A True Fan

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    Even if we do stick with Tannehill next year (which I think we will) I'd still take Aaron Murray in the 3rd round. Love the way he plays and you can't have too many QBs.
     
  21. CO-Gator

    CO-Gator They all float down here.

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    That's debatable.
     
  22. Mudder1310

    Mudder1310 A True Fan

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    Not really. He has talent, he can run, he can throw, has a decent arm, is big, slides around well. He needs some coaching up though.
     
  23. finsfanjay13

    finsfanjay13 Rookie Donator

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    I have zero interest in Logan Thomas.
     
  24. Mudder1310

    Mudder1310 A True Fan

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    Well that's a different argument.
     
  25. Thumper1016

    Thumper1016 A True Fan

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    It does not hurt to have someone to challenge Tannehill. He should not feel like he has no threat to losing his job imo.
     
  26. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Just realized Zach Mettenberger reminds me a lot of Kerry Collins - even down to the throwing motion.
     
  27. Dolphins512

    Dolphins512 My Friends Call Me Bob Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Tannehill is the starter and we have one of the better back ups in the league with Moore. I hope we DON'T take a QB in the draft and spend our picks on the O-line and other positions of need. Tannehill is fine if he wasn't running for his life everytime he drops back.
     
  28. phinfan13

    phinfan13 A True Fan

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  29. goonies

    goonies Banned Hammered

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    I luv Johnny football, I would love to have Johnny football be our qb. He has that it factor.
     
  30. Patrick_Bateman

    Patrick_Bateman Rookie

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    That's what we've been missing with every single QB since Marino retired...I just hope I live long enough to see this team figure it out and actually be in position to grab one of these rare QBs
     
  31. FearTheBeard

    FearTheBeard FearTheBurke

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    **** I'm back in the draft forum....I guess it's November again. I agree with you, I have no problem in a draft like this looking at a guy 4th round or later. There's gotta be some good value there. I'm a believer you can try to find a gem at QB late in every draft and roll the dice because you never know. But if we hold onto Moore another year, I don't see the point in burning anything higher than a 5th rounder on a guy, but I am a Tannehill believer. Mostly I said that because WV is an extreme Tanny hater (swear he wasn't at this time last season...weird), we should be looking to build up the o-line and change our culture.
     
  32. mrbunglez

    mrbunglez Reading Is Fundamental Donator

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    There's not 1 QB worth taking in the 1st rd of 2014 IMO. Not even the great Bridgewater, Jameis, or Manziel is worth that much.
     
  33. FearTheBeard

    FearTheBeard FearTheBurke

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    What could possibly make you think this...?
     
  34. slk018

    slk018 A True Fan

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    If you haven't noticed it is a QB league. You Have to get a franchise qb to be successful..Bridgewater and Manziell both have the IT factor that Hennehill doesnt
     
  35. utahphinsfan

    utahphinsfan Puck Fitzburgh

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    I like all 3 SEC QB's (Murray, MacCarron, & Mettenberger).
     
  36. Fin Thirteen

    Fin Thirteen FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    An interesting guy for us would be TCU's Casey Pachall.

    HIs 2013 season has been a downward spiral - having been caught with a positive drug test and gone into rehab followed by a DUI, he's had a very poor 2013 season, particularly in terms of INTs (very uncharacteristically) and then he broke his non-throwing arm. TCU's offense is struggling, esp the o-line, but Pachall hasn't had an easy ride.

    He'll be available for a song and behind all that rubbish above is a very good QB. He'd also be a great understudy to Tannehill as they're physically and style-wise quite similar. Good awareness, very quick release, some scramble ability, leads his receivers well with his throws.

    Snap him up late and give him a season for evaluation. Potential diamond in the rough. The word is he's reformed and too good a prospect to pass up, imo.
     
  37. mrbunglez

    mrbunglez Reading Is Fundamental Donator

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    If anything I'd pick up Blake Bell in the later rounds to mold if he enters the draft. He's got a cannon and can scramble.
     
  38. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    No offense, but Bell is terrible. You'd have a better chance reviving Tebow's career.
     
  39. mrbunglez

    mrbunglez Reading Is Fundamental Donator

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    Yeah he isn't playing well right now, but I see him like Osweiler, someone you take in the later rounds to sit and learn.
    Highest id even consider picking up Manziel is in the later part of the 2nd round. I also do like Mariota in that same area as Manziel.
     
  40. Tiger

    Tiger Well-Known Member

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    Except Oswieler was drafted in the mid second round and is a much better prospect. I'd rather burn a late rounder on Blake Bortles presuming he doesn't rise to high in the draft
     
  41. ProStyle

    ProStyle Well-Known Member

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    Manziel. Make it happen.
     
  42. FearTheBeard

    FearTheBeard FearTheBurke

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    I don't think Bortles is a guy whose gonna be available late...like what I've seen.
     
  43. ProStyle

    ProStyle Well-Known Member

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    Chase Rettig should be available in FA. I really like him.
     
  44. MexDolfan

    MexDolfan Seasoned Veteran

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    I don't agree. We the dolfans like most sports-fans tend to be bipolar, we can cheer and love a player that has poor talent but a lot of luck and can trash and hate a talented guy that's having a bad time. I suggest you to relax and evaluate the situation with cold mind.

    Ryan Tannehill is a young passer, one under development. Before draft day he was seeing as a project QB and Dolphins' FO knew it from first hand, because Sherman was his coach at Texas A&M. The reasons for picking him might be unclear but in few words, Ryan has a lot of talent and potential. He's different because unlike most NFL QB, he was a receiver for a great part of his college days, so he was projected to need a large development including a pathetic rookie year in 2012 and his upgrade should start to be noticed by his third NFL season (2014).

    But Tannehill won important games in 2012 and has been better than average in his second season behind the worse O-line of the league. So Tannehill has surpassed expectations from scouts and clearly you are acting wrong by ignoring those facts.

    That said, picking Tannehill wasn't a call from Jeff Ireland himself. Philbin, Ireland and Ross were on the same page about him and their expectations on the young passer were lower than what most fans got because of his 1st round caliber.

    Also as they added star WR Mike Wallace for an insane sum, we the fans assumed to be enjoying with Dolphins scoring 70 points or more per game, but as that's not the case, there's a lot of frustration because Ryan can't complete several passes of 40 yards or more per game.

    Some fans are trashing Wallace other part of the fanbase is asking for a new QB and several others want to get rid of Ireland, Sherman, Philbin or whatever combination of these trio because they're losing patience. It might sound strange but I want to get rid of Ireland not because of his results, but his manners. Jeff is not the kind of manager that this organization deserves.

    I don't see things on black and white, I see a great gamma of colors in between. I understand that TODAY Ryan Tannehill isn't as good as Andrew Luck, but Luck is on pace to kill the league in a year or two. It's clear Tannehill will require more time than Luck. But that doesn't mean Tannehill won't be a better QB than Luck. It means he's developing, adjusting and learning.

    Think about Mike Wallace chemistry with Tannehill. As ESPN's week 13 power rankings says "The deep threat finally showed up", referring the way Mike Wallace was targeted 4-5 times on 40+ yards throws, leading to a TD and another big plays. Of course we're furious trashing Wallace for dropping a sure TD or Tannehill for overthrowing Wallace in another play. Where most persons are seeing failure, I see progress.

    As a passer I am a decent TE, but as my coach tried to insert me in some tricky plays, I learned about reading defenses, hiding the play and throwing depth passes. During that time I noticed about how each player has different speed, exactitude and style to follow a route, and that in 40+ passes require you to gain time in order to allow your receiver to run his route. So the touch is not the key, but the timing. So I can see how difficult is to synchronize Wallace and Tannehill because Ryan wants to throw with timed precision and Wallace is asking to compensate the throw based on the exact point where he's able to explode his route.

    They're finding a middle point, but it needs more practice and could be totally fixed by next season.

    On Philbin I trust.
     
  45. MexDolfan

    MexDolfan Seasoned Veteran

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    Let me be clear.

    If Ryan Tannehill have been available at 2013 draft, he could have been the top pick overall.

    If Ryan Tannehill has been available for this class, he would be the 1st pick overall.

    Picking a project QB every single year is a must in this league, but that doesn't mean to use a high pick on it.
     
  46. MexDolfan

    MexDolfan Seasoned Veteran

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    Interesting, very interesting.

    Pat Devlin has been developing well and Matt Moore is under contract for another season. Would you say that Chase Rettig is an upgrade over any of them?
     
  47. FearTheBeard

    FearTheBeard FearTheBurke

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    I'd use a late pick on Fales. Hasn't had a very good year but he's looking like a late rounder. Has a really good feel for the position and I think would suit this offense.
     
  48. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Tannehill would have a difficult time breaking the top 10 in this draft.
     
  49. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    If tannehill played like manziels did vs Lsu this board would be roasting him...the qb was not good in that game...had plenty of time and missed throws all over the place...

    The arms got me a little concerned I see a lot of double hitching to get the ball down the field on some routes...doesn't have tannehills arm from the pocket
     
  50. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    If Tannehill played like Manziel in any of Manziel's other games this season, FH would already be trying to put him in the Hall of Fame. I think there's more meat on the bone with Tannehill. I think a system more like the one in Seattle would do wonders for him and the team in general.

    I think the LSU game was more about LSU thoroughly dominating A&M physically on offense and defense. LSU's DB's were able to hold and interfere with A&M WR's all day, and apart from Mike Evans, A&M's WR's don't match up with LSU's secondary on a physical level. The play where Evans was interfered with and dropped a TD pass summed up the game. No call on the PI, dropped pass in the end zone. If Manziel had 3 TD passes on the day (which he would have with the two drops), people wouldn't be saying that Manziel had such a terrible day. He did miss throws, no doubt, but look at the conditions. Mettenberger (who should go in the 1st RD) was 11 for 20 despite having two outstanding WR's and 8 or 9 defenders in the box all game. The weather was an issue for both QB's. The difference is that Manziel is asked to do everything for his team every single week. It's a recipe for losing, and Sumlin should take a better job elsewhere at season's end, but Manziel is brilliant enough to beat SEC teams despite QB'ing for a Big 12 team.
     

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