Any concerns with our talent evaluators ie: our scouting dept.?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by PHINSfan, Apr 17, 2014.

  1. PHINSfan

    PHINSfan FinHeaven VIP

    Joined:
    Dec 2004
    Messages:
    2,370
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Wow...I can't believe this will be the 2000th time I write something here...I've been lucky being here in FH for about 10 years and have had the pleasure of reading many great posts from people like Simon, CK, Raphael, and so many others die-hard Phins fans. As individuals we don't always agree on a lot of things, but one thing we do have in common: As fans of this great, once very proud and victorious, team we are tired of the ineptitude and mediocracy that has plagued this team for so long.... We deserve better!

    Now regarding the tittle of this post:

    Is anyone here concern with our scouts/evaluators? As far as I know we have had basically the same people here doing those jobs for quite a long time. And even though the final responsability lies with the general manager, shouldn't these senior scouts be held responsible for some of the blunders this team has made in the last few drafts? If the GM sets up an Evaluation Board (for the draft and FA) with the data given by these individuals aren't they also to be blamed when the players they highly recommend don't pan out?
     
  2. Digital

    Digital Starter

    Joined:
    Feb 2008
    Messages:
    4,904
    Likes Received:
    155
    Trophy Points:
    63
    It's too late to change stream this draft, but Hickey will likely change some of the staff this offseason.

    I've long maintained that this is an area where a rich owner can considerably improve the team. Buying the best scouts helps, and their salaries are very low comparatively, so a wealthy owner should be able to pluck the best from the NFL and CFL if he prioritized it.

    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
     
  3. dlockz

    dlockz Hall Of Famer

    Joined:
    Sep 2004
    Messages:
    44,288
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    everyone should have concerns all the way to the top. We can judge them a little better on draft day.
     
  4. NRA

    NRA Roll Gypsy Roll

    Joined:
    Apr 2007
    Messages:
    4,401
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    48
    why should there be?

    NOBODY even knows who they all are! from what i remember some if not all of our previous scouts were replaced. hickey brought in some guys who he knew and had worked with.

    and hickey himself is considered one of the finest talent evaluators in the nfl.

    shouldnt we wait and see how the draft turns out, how the payers drafted or brought in as ufa's before asking this question?

    and again, HICKEY didnt make the decision on draft day who was drafted. that was tampas gm. how much different would it all have been had hickey, not only evaluated the talent but ALSO made the decision on draft day? we are soon to find out. how many times would the pick have been better if the gm had taken HIS player? we dont know.

    scouts can only do so much. they can give their opinion but in the end its the GM who decides who is drafted or brought in from collegiate f/a's.

    another thing people over look is how much of a gm's board was desimated by the time it was his team to choose. how often did they have to go to plan B or C because the guys they had on the top of thier board in each round were gone? we dont know. and THIS is what makes a great gm, where you can tell a bit about the scouts. how did plan B and C work out?

    it is just WAY, WAY to early to ask this question.
     
  5. spiketex

    spiketex Kiko Alonso - El Bravo 47 the yappy chihuahua Super Donator Donator

    Joined:
    Apr 2007
    Messages:
    6,391
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Hickey's best skill is reportedly player evaluation. With 18 years experience in the NFL, that is what he did and why he is here. He has inherited Ireland's team (sans Brian Gaine) and so is pretty dependent on their information. However, he was looking over the same player prospects in his former role with Tampa Bay. I would expect that he has very definite ideas on how and what he is seeking in the scouting reports and will progressively put his stamp on this side of the process.
    Other GM candidates were more articulate and skilled at using the media, eg Lake Dawson and Ray Farmer, but Stephen Ross picked the very experienced player evaluation guy. I'm optimistic that he can significantly improve our player evaluation process and results.
     
  6. JFoxx

    JFoxx Seasoned Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 2006
    Messages:
    2,739
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I think we will get a much better idea this draft regarding your question. While Hickey and Philbin may have final say, it sounds like they will be using the electronic smart board this year to help them with their decision. All that data is going to come from the scouts, so they should be using their evaluation notes to make decisions with just about every round except for the first (maybe even that one too). I'm guessing Ireland use this less in the past and chose more on his own notes than the scouts. If I were a scout for the Phins, I'd be making sure my work was spot on this year as if my job depended on it (which I'm guessing it will).
     
  7. rent this space

    rent this space Starter Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2007
    Messages:
    5,448
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I am somewhat concerned, but how do you find out who was responsible for what in the last few drafts? They have been decent in the 1st round, horrible in the middle and have done fairly well in the late rounds. Hickey should watch and learn this year, then make changes.
     
  8. ChambersWI

    ChambersWI Owner of the Palace of Wisdom Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    14,498
    Likes Received:
    45
    Trophy Points:
    48
    That's the million dollar question isn't it? According to sources around the league guys like Anthony Hunt and Chris Grier have great futures in the NFL and we all heard how highly thought of Brian Gaine was around the league. Have our failures been the scouts not doing their job that well or was it Jeff Ireland not really listening to those around him? Or is it coaching that failed in developing.

    I personally think it's a combo of all 3.
     
  9. spiketex

    spiketex Kiko Alonso - El Bravo 47 the yappy chihuahua Super Donator Donator

    Joined:
    Apr 2007
    Messages:
    6,391
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Bingo.. You have probably also heard the stories that Ireland would have the data but sometimes would just roll with his gut instincts. Sometimes they worked but it is pretty easy to envisage him as being stubborn. I'd love to know what happened for the urgency to trade a pick and move up and get Will Davis last year. I guess he had his heart set on someone else who was surprisingly taken.
     
  10. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

    Joined:
    Jul 2008
    Messages:
    50,255
    Likes Received:
    184
    Trophy Points:
    63
    ehhh they said everyone was on the same page in that building that dion jordan was the top prospect in the class last year...only thing they didn't realize was that he wasn't very much of a scheme fit

    idiots...should have been the first thing they figured out...not a scheme fit do not have on your board...duh
     
  11. FSU Truth

    FSU Truth inside my DNA Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Oct 2013
    Messages:
    9,121
    Likes Received:
    135
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I really think Ireland wanted to make a big splash last draft and went after the most intriguing prospect...in the end it got him fired...

    As for the scouting Department....they provide information...it is the GM that needs to use that information and make the best decision for the team...
     
  12. roy_miami

    roy_miami 2020 cant get here soon enough Donator

    Joined:
    Sep 2008
    Messages:
    10,121
    Likes Received:
    50
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I'm not even sure you need traditional scouts anymore in this day and age.
     
  13. ChambersWI

    ChambersWI Owner of the Palace of Wisdom Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    14,498
    Likes Received:
    45
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Honestly, and this isn't making excuses, but since his injury caused him to miss all of OTAs and then he missed a couple weeks of training camp, I treated last year as a redshirt year for Dion Jordan. He needed to add weight and get stronger anyway, so him missing as much time as he did was an issue.

    With Ireland and Philbin the question becomes how much did they actually disagree on. We've heard all the stories about them not getting along especially as the season got tougher, but how much did they disagree during the draft? There's a rumor how Philbin wanted Lavonte David but Ireland felt he was too small. Is that true?

    I think the issue with Sparano has coach under Ireland/Parcells is that Tony didn't really do much scouting on his own.

    And as I've said a million times, the best teams have a GM and coach that will work together with scouts and assistant coaches to find players that best fit their scheme. GMs should not force a player on a coach. You also need scouts that are willing to speak up and do a little extra work after the "elite" talent of the draft. I remember a story from when Matt Millen was GM of Detroit and they had a 2nd round pick and didn't know who to draft as their board was pretty much empty. Somebody mentioned Brian Calhoun (RB from Wisconsin) so they just took him because they knew the name.

    Now I do think Ireland had some talent as the draft went on. Whether or not you consider them superstars or not but getting production from Nolan Carroll, Brian Hartline, Reshad Jones, Chris Clemons, Charles Clay, and Jimmy Wilson is a good skill to have. But Ireland for whatever reason just did not do well in the early rounds. Some I think was aged thinking (see reasonings for drafting Patrick Turner, and John Jerry) some was overthinking (Pat White), and some was projecting a skill set and for whatever reason it didn't translate (Clyde Gates, AJ Edds, Shawn Murphy)

    Now is Hickey an improvement? Who knows. I think his willingness to work hand in hand with Philbin is a step in the right direction for the draft. BUT that doesn't mean he'll do a good job. He just can't be as stubborn about fixing his mistakes as Ireland was.
     
  14. ChambersWI

    ChambersWI Owner of the Palace of Wisdom Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    14,498
    Likes Received:
    45
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I've said this many times. Scouting NFL prospects isn't THAT hard to do... especially when sites like Draft Breakdown are available. The issue is understanding what players were asked to do in college, what your system would ask of them, and whether or not their skills translate to that system. That's not even including getting to know players.

    I'll use this example; Kevin Coyle wants to run a 4-3 defense with DTs that penetrate the gaps and can provide an interior pass rush. in round 2 or 3 if we decided we needed insurance at DT for our system would you draft a guy like Will Sutton who plays best at around 290 and is asked to penetrate the line, or would you draft a being 350 pound NT in Daniel McCuellers?
     
  15. roy_miami

    roy_miami 2020 cant get here soon enough Donator

    Joined:
    Sep 2008
    Messages:
    10,121
    Likes Received:
    50
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I think Ireland had a superiority complex. He probably caved to Parcells on all significant personnel decisions and this time he was going to be the man, the man with the master plan. You don't like the plan? **** off, I'm running things now.
     
  16. PHINSfan

    PHINSfan FinHeaven VIP

    Joined:
    Dec 2004
    Messages:
    2,370
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Agree! Some people believe that now a days we don't need a great scout dept. I don't agree with that. Of course is up to the GM to decide who he brings in, but a great scouting dept. lets him choose from a better talent pool, that better fits what the team is trying to do schematically.
     
  17. PHINSfan

    PHINSfan FinHeaven VIP

    Joined:
    Dec 2004
    Messages:
    2,370
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    from your mouth...to God's ears, I hope you're right!
     
  18. PHINSfan

    PHINSfan FinHeaven VIP

    Joined:
    Dec 2004
    Messages:
    2,370
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Very good example! That's where I think a great scouting dept. tries to narrow down the list of available players who fit our schemes better. Another good example was be the drafting of Jordan. Most people saw him as a much better fit as an OLB in a 34D, but we drafted him to play DE in a 43D. I remember reading at the time it happened that everyone in the war room was on the same page that he was the player they wanted. Didn't any scout bring up the point that regarding better positional fit??? who knows......
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2014
  19. PHINSfan

    PHINSfan FinHeaven VIP

    Joined:
    Dec 2004
    Messages:
    2,370
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    very good points... I agree!
     
  20. roy_miami

    roy_miami 2020 cant get here soon enough Donator

    Joined:
    Sep 2008
    Messages:
    10,121
    Likes Received:
    50
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I wasn't excited by the Jordan pick at all but if we ran a 3-4 I would have been extremely excited. Most defenses are flexible though and I'm pretty sure all defenses have elements of both base defenses so its not like Jordan will be useless for us, he's just not that exciting as a tweener.
     

Share This Page