Armando - Fins love Barnett and Lamp | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Armando - Fins love Barnett and Lamp

I know I mentioned something similar in another thread, but I think it bears repeating. Why is it that every time someone is linked to us as it relates to our first round pick, it's always, "There's no way player 'x' makes it to 22", or "That's way too high for player 'y', I wouldn't take him until the second or third round"? No one, and I mean NO ONE is ever great value at our pick, and should be there when we're on the clock. I just don't get it.
 
This is hard for me to say, because it goes against what I've been preaching for so long, and it goes against my gut ... but I think we need to take a pass rusher at 22. Those guys are very difficult to find, and either Gase will be successful and we'll be unable to replace Wake (much less compliment him on the other side), or Gase will be unsuccessful and we'll be rebuilding in the wake of Wake's retirement, once again needing two pass rushers.

I _want_ to say take Forrest Lamp, and I will be ecstatic if we get him. But, this is a very rare draft, where we have depth at pass rusher, which never happens. We can actually get an elite pass rusher at 22, and there are probably a half dozen guys in that echelon and it is certain that at least one of them is available. We need to take one. Then, if another is available at 54 ... unlikely but possible ... then we should probably take him too, despite the screams from the fans.

Gase is the cornerstone of this franchise. I want him here for the long haul. That means taking the elusive pass rushers when they are available. We have the QB and LT. We have talented receivers. We have Xavien Howard at CB. Now we need a young edge rusher or two, and those are hard to find.

If we draft Lamp, he instantly plugs our biggest hole--guard. He solidifies the OL for 10 years and has the position flexibility to play all across the line, even LT in a pinch. He instantly becomes our best run blocking guard and a dominant piece in our run game for Ajayi and whomever we have after him. Lamp makes a ton of sense, and is exactly what I wanted when we missed out on Zack Martin. But, if we take Lamp, we aren't likely to get another shot at this quality of edge rusher again. The pass rusher we take at 22 is most likely a top 10 player in most other drafts, and unless we stumble mightily, Gase will not be drafting in the top 10. So, frustratingly, I think we should draft the best pass rusher available at 22.

Wouldn't it be great if we had given Branch's money to Warford or Leary then we wouldn't have to use a 1st on a guard and we could actually focus on landing the best pass rusher and giving him meaningful snaps right away...as it stands I'm not sure how often a Harris, Willis or Charlton would see the field.
 
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Damn beat me to it lol
 
This is hard for me to say, because it goes against what I've been preaching for so long, and it goes against my gut ... but I think we need to take a pass rusher at 22. Those guys are very difficult to find, and either Gase will be successful and we'll be unable to replace Wake (much less compliment him on the other side), or Gase will be unsuccessful and we'll be rebuilding in the wake of Wake's retirement, once again needing two pass rushers.

I _want_ to say take Forrest Lamp, and I will be ecstatic if we get him. But, this is a very rare draft, where we have depth at pass rusher, which never happens. We can actually get an elite pass rusher at 22, and there are probably a half dozen guys in that echelon and it is certain that at least one of them is available. We need to take one. Then, if another is available at 54 ... unlikely but possible ... then we should probably take him too, despite the screams from the fans.

Gase is the cornerstone of this franchise. I want him here for the long haul. That means taking the elusive pass rushers when they are available. We have the QB and LT. We have talented receivers. We have Xavien Howard at CB. Now we need a young edge rusher or two, and those are hard to find.

If we draft Lamp, he instantly plugs our biggest hole--guard. He solidifies the OL for 10 years and has the position flexibility to play all across the line, even LT in a pinch. He instantly becomes our best run blocking guard and a dominant piece in our run game for Ajayi and whomever we have after him. Lamp makes a ton of sense, and is exactly what I wanted when we missed out on Zack Martin. But, if we take Lamp, we aren't likely to get another shot at this quality of edge rusher again. The pass rusher we take at 22 is most likely a top 10 player in most other drafts, and unless we stumble mightily, Gase will not be drafting in the top 10. So, frustratingly, I think we should draft the best pass rusher available at 22.

Takkarist McKinley
Derek Barnett
Taco Charlton
Charles Harris
Daeshon Hall
Carl Lawson
Jordan Willis
Demarcus Walker
Tarell Basham
Trey Hendrikson
Tanoh Kpassagnon
Derek Rivers
Dawuane Smoot
Deatrich Wise Jr.
Keionta Davis
Hunter Dimrick
Joe Mathis
Samson Ebukam
Praise Martin-Oguike
Josh Carraway
Avery Moss
Brian Cox Jr.

We already have Cameron Wake, Andre Branch, William Hayes and Terrence Fede and this year's crop of Defensive Ends is very deep. You mentioned pass rushers, that list doesn't even include players like Jonathan Allen and Malik McDowell- or Linebackers for that matter. To me, Charles Harris of Missouri looks to be much quicker off of the LOS than Derek Barnett- ideally I'm looking for an Aldon Smith type (rare as that is with his other worldly first step) but at least Charles Harris is knocking on the door. Derek Barnett is solid, probably a better all around DE than Harris, but he has pedestrian physical tools.

Barnett fills a need, Lamp fills a need, Lamp is the better player and better athlete imo. Lamp is a college stud who imo will be a NFL stud, Barnett is a college stud who might very well end up being an average to above average NFL DE. Watch the film- he's productive but not all that compelling a prospect from a talent, physical perspective. I was going to compare him to Marco Coleman from back in the day, but I liked Marco Coleman more back in 1992 than I like Barnett now. Lamp all the way.
 
Wouldn't it be great if we had given Branch's money to Warford or Leary then we wouldn't have to use a 1st on a guard and we could actually focus on landing the best pass rusher and giving him meaningful snaps right away...as it stands I'm not sure how often a Harris, Willis or Charlton would see the field.

Soooooo true .... so true. Heck, shave a mil or two off Branch's salary, then not sign Timmons, there's our guard done and dusted. That would free us up to draft one of the many good LB's.
 
Takkarist McKinley
Derek Barnett
Taco Charlton
Charles Harris
Daeshon Hall
Carl Lawson
Jordan Willis
Demarcus Walker
Tarell Basham
Trey Hendrikson
Tanoh Kpassagnon
Derek Rivers
Dawuane Smoot
Deatrich Wise Jr.
Keionta Davis
Hunter Dimrick
Joe Mathis
Samson Ebukam
Praise Martin-Oguike
Josh Carraway
Avery Moss
Brian Cox Jr.

We already have Cameron Wake, Andre Branch, William Hayes and Terrence Fede and this year's crop of Defensive Ends is very deep. You mentioned pass rushers, that list doesn't even include players like Jonathan Allen and Malik McDowell- or Linebackers for that matter. To me, Charles Harris of Missouri looks to be much quicker off of the LOS than Derek Barnett- ideally I'm looking for an Aldon Smith type (rare as that is with his other worldly first step) but at least Charles Harris is knocking on the door. Derek Barnett is solid, probably a better all around DE than Harris, but he has pedestrian physical tools.

Barnett fills a need, Lamp fills a need, Lamp is the better player and better athlete imo. Lamp is a college stud who imo will be a NFL stud, Barnett is a college stud who might very well end up being an average to above average NFL DE. Watch the film- he's productive but not all that compelling a prospect from a talent, physical perspective. I was going to compare him to Marco Coleman from back in the day, but I liked Marco Coleman more back in 1992 than I like Barnett now. Lamp all the way.

Barnett reminds me a bit of Marco Coleman, the old Dolphins De who was also very skilled but not quite elite quickness. He had some success, but nothing like in college, because he wasn't quite athletic enough to make it work in the pros. That is my fear with Barnett. He beats collegians with hand work. But in the NFL he will not be able to win that way often.
 
we have 1 good DE, he is approaching pension age. We also have a few 1 year stopgaps. Our DE group is a disaster in terms of rushing the passer, Hayes should be fine stopping the run - again for 1 year

So you agree then. Next year DE is a big hole. This year we have no slot corner worth a damn, we have very questionable FS coverage, we have no SLB who can stay on the field (or if you like Timmons as a Sam we have no MLB) and we have serious question marks at both guard positions. We have 2 DTS and no depth behind them.

If Barnett is at 22, I would strap my jetboots on and head for the stage. But not because DE is a need this year. Compared to other positions, it just isn't.

So if Armando is banging the drum of drafting for need on defense, he should be lobbying for a slot corner, Sam backer or DT, maybe even FS.
 
Until we find pass rushers who can get in Brady's face over and over, we're never going to overtake the Patriots and win the AFC East.

Pass rush in Brady's face hasn't been the problem. Brady is at a point in this offense where he knows how to get the ball out of his hands quickly. The only thing that disrupts Brady is a pass rush through the A gaps, and disruption of timing on his receivers .

No one jams Edleman, because he is too quick in short areas. No one jams Gronk because he is too strong. No one shadows the running backs like White because they are too quick. We haven't consistently beaten the Pats because we haven't found a way to neutralize Brady's bail out weapons. We've always had a weakness.

I think Barnett is a smokescreen. I believe the pick will be either Reddick, Davis, or Cunningham. Another young linebacker strengthens the run defense AND helps strengthen the underneath coverage. There are enough DE prospects in this draft for the coaching staff to find a couple of good developmental prospects that can take snaps this year.
 
get em both

Would have to trade next year's first and this year's second to have that opportunity. No thanks. You can get a Lamp caliber guard later in the draft. No huge drop off in Lamp vs. Feeney, Johnson, Dawkins, Isiata.

He would be a terrible pick in terms of value at 22.
 
Would have to trade next year's first and this year's second to have that opportunity. No thanks. You can get a Lamp caliber guard later in the draft. No huge drop off in Lamp vs. Feeney, Johnson, Dawkins, Isiata.

He would be a terrible pick in terms of value at 22.

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So you agree then. Next year DE is a big hole. This year we have no slot corner worth a damn, we have very questionable FS coverage, we have no SLB who can stay on the field (or if you like Timmons as a Sam we have no MLB) and we have serious question marks at both guard positions. We have 2 DTS and no depth behind them.

If Barnett is at 22, I would strap my jetboots on and head for the stage. But not because DE is a need this year. Compared to other positions, it just isn't.

So if Armando is banging the drum of drafting for need on defense, he should be lobbying for a slot corner, Sam backer or DT, maybe even FS.

NO. DE has been a big hole that we have ignored for years. We must address it this year. We must find both Wake's partner and replacement. Huge task for a good FO nevermind ours
 
Until we find pass rushers who can get in Brady's face over and over, we're never going to overtake the Patriots and win the AFC East.

Two thoughts.

1) Honestly, if you are building a team these days to stop Brady and Belichick then that is probably short-sighted. We don't know how much longer Brady will be effective, and if Garappalo takes over, he is a completely different kind of QB. Sure, Brady _wants_ to play into his 50's ... heck probably until he hits 75, but father time will decide, not Tom Brady. Building a team that can win is the thing to do. Win 10 games a year and it will become almost irrelevant whether we beat the Patriots. At 10 wins we will likely be in the playoffs every year, and that is really only 2 games better than the average coaches. Once we hit that mark we can look at our competition ... which may not even include Tom Brady by then.

2) If you truly want to build a team to beat Tom Brady, and I realize you are not alone in wanting this, then what we need is an elite FS, more elite CB's, and another elite penetrating DT in the mold of Suh. Here's why. At this stage of his career, Brady is throwing tons of dink and dunk plays. His OL looks better than it is because he gets the ball out so quickly. His receivers, like Edelman, run very short quick routes. They abuse CB's cushion and Tom Brady is extremely good at delivering those short passes on time and with precision. His accuracy is the most consistent in the NFL. He throws the pass before the rush can get to him.

If you watch the Super Bowl, at the beginning of the game the Falcons used this approach against the Patriots and shut them down. They clamped down on the short stuff and trusted their FS to prevent the bomb. It worked. While Brady completed some passes, he was unable to complete enough to string together any drives. Unfortunately, once the Falcons got that lead they backed off of this aggressive approach and started playing off the WR's, and all of a sudden Brady found his rhythm, completed nearly every pass because his receivers were almost always open, and started many mercilessly long drives down the field exhausting the Falcons defense and killing them with a "death by a thousand cuts" system of short passes. Then, in the 2nd half, the defense started getting so tired they were no longer capable of clamping down on those short routes effectively ... and the Patriots steamrolled them. Had the Falcons stuck to clamping down on those short receiving routes, the Falcons would have won in a blowout.

That is the same strategy that the Broncos and the Seahawks used successfully against Brady. It works. Things would be different if the Patriots had an in-prime Randy Moss ... but they don't. And IMHO, Branden Cooks isn't that guy despite his speed. The Broncos had 3 elite CB's to play tight man in the face of those receivers and clamp down on their short routes. They had a FS to cover over the top, and Miller and Ware bringing fantastic pressure to prevent longer drops and time for longer throws. Then they blitzed the A gap a lot too. The Seahawks used lockdown press CB's to clamp down on the short routes and excellent pressure to prevent long-developing plays like long throws.

This strategy requires 3 exact steps all working effectively at the same time: 3 elite CB's clamping down and denying short routes, at least 2 elite pass rushers/blitzers to quickly and consistently generate pressure, and 1 elite FS to cover all of those CB's over the top. We lack one player at all three of those positions. So if we're serious about retooling our team vs. Brady, we need not only an elite pass rusher (two really since Wake is near the end of his career), but also at least one more dominant CB, and an elite FS. In my lifetime I can't recall a time when the Dolphins have valued a FS enough to draft one in the 1st round, and the chances of us getting one later in the draft are slim. Look at our history, all of our top safeties have been strong safeties ... Reshad Jones, Yeremiah Bell, Brock Marion, Jarvis Williams, etc. etc. etc. We just don't value the FS position enough to make this strategy work. So, unless we get lucky and find the next Ed Reed in round 5 or something (and Ed Reed was a 1st round elite safety obviously), this plan isn't going to work. Sure, maybe a Malik Hooker falls to 22 because of a last minute injury scare or something, but aside from one of those two highly unlikely things happening, we simply aren't going to have the FS to make this work. We traded down from where we might have drafted Earl Thomas to draft Jared Odrick and Koa Misi (over Rob Gronkowski), and liked Odrick so much we didn't even resign him to a second contract, and aren't pursuing him now either ... while Earl Thomas continues to be All-Pro elite. So if you were serious about this approach, you'd be advocating for trading up into the top 6 to get MH from Ohio State. He is that next elite FS, and he will not come cheaply.

Yeah, I agree, getting two pass rushers is the thing to do in this draft. But let's be clear, it's still not going to get us over the hump against Brady and the Patriots ... because only one strategy works against them at the moment, and it requires more than just the pass rushers.
 
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