Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Danny68, Jan 28, 2013.
Love the kid! Speed, hands and size, everything the team lacks.
I was going to post this article but you beat me to it. I say we should pull the trigger on this kid with our first pick in the second round. That frees up our first round pick for a star pass rusher.
I would have no problem with Williams with one of our seconds.
Kid is a baller. If we can scoop him in round 2, I'd be stoked.
I feel like Terrance Williams is extremely overrated. I don't see great ability to separate with quickness or craftiness in his routes. I see decent long speed but nothing special. I don't like to discount production so ill continue to watch as much video of him as I can but... I'm not buying the hype.
And I've seen several mocks with Williams going before Justin hunter which just blows my mind. "Am I taking crazy pills!!!!?"
he may drop into second round. As players move up, Johnson, Okafor, Jones, Trufant, ect. ect. you will see guys like this drop to our 43. We will get a good player there for sure and 54.
Arron Dobson is also a probability. Wheaton, Woods, goes on and on.....
I'll reserve judgment until I see him and others perform at the combine, but the numbers don't lie.
Screams bust to me. Struggles to get separation. No YAC ability. 40 speed aside there's no quickness there. Gets jammed easily. Lapses in concentration. He has excellent body control and uses his size well but other than that he's just not going to make it in the pros. That would be a wasted pick. He's not in the league of Allen, Patterson, Hopkins, or even Stedman, Marquess.
I like what I see from this kid on film. He has the right combination of size and speed for Philbin's offense and also good hands, which is the top priority for Philbin. He's very comparable to Mike Wallace IMO. I wouldn't be mad at late 1st if we trade down or early 2nd.
While there are no Calvin Johnsons in this class, there could certainly be some Greg Jennings/Reggie Waynes available in the first few rounds.
No thanks. He has alligator arms going across the middle and drops the ball too much. I dont want to draft a WR hoping that his "catching" skills improve.
I wanted this kid the first time I watched him play
There might not be any super stars at WR this year but alot of good players in the second and third rounds that will be great #3 guys for most teams. Guys like woods and hunter and goodwin from texas. Bailey from WV and guys like that. I would rather have those guys then williams IMO.
Should this not be in the draft forum?
**** not opposed, if Wallace wants too much money draft this guy.
After watching him on his highlights I see how he fits. Alot of GB typr WR's fit this guys mold and I am buying into the 6'2" 205 size of a typical Philbin guy and what I see from this guy is he is able to make plays downfield in the endzone and over the middle. I disagree with others about seperation. He is certainly capable. His production is very good with or without RG3.
I wasnt high on him until now. I sort of been having a flavor of the week on WR but this article hints at Philbin's liking IMO.
Hopkins is another guy and Dobson and Swopes fit the typical Philbin style IMO.
you left out the 12 td's the kid has this past year.
seems to me that stat is the most over looked of all on the fin boards. we need someone who can find the endzone.
if this kid has all those problems as you say he does and he can still put up those stats, the yds, td's, etc..., ILL TAKE IT!!!
he cant get open, he cant get off the line, he cant run, cant concentrate, but, he still gets 1800+yds and 12 scores.
something doesnt add up.
I'd rather have Hopkins at 42 than Williams tbh.
I would much rather have Terrance Williams than DeAndre Hopkins. I think Williams has very solid value in the 2nd round. He's a proven and consistent deep threat that shows a surprising all-around game when given the opportunity. He has great size and really good athleticism for that size. He's a proven on the perimeter of the field and he creates a lot of separation. You go from Robert Griffin at quarterback to Nick Florence, and you don't miss a beat.
He's not my absolute favorite wide receiver in this draft, probably not even in my top 3 at the position, but he's just outside of that.
By saying you'd much rather do you mean you don't like Hopkins, CK? And if so, what is it about Hopkins that doesn't impress you? From what I've seen, Hopkins looks better than Allen but not as good as Patterson to me.
It's not that I dislike DeAndre Hopkins. He brings a lot to the table. But one thing he doesn't bring is size, strength or physicality. Another thing he doesn't bring is the speed to take the top off a defense. When I was watching Tharold Simon go against Hopkins, this was a day that Hopkins obviously won by a good margin as he had a monstrous night from a pure statistical standpoint, but you could see Tharold Simon making a ton of mistakes that guys in the pros won't be making as often. Meanwhile, when Tharold got some simple issues in his technique right, he could flat out erase Hopkins. That's the danger for Hopkins at the next level. He's a guy that made his living getting behind college defenses and making big plays vertically, yet doesn't have the size/speed/strength to do that at the next level. I don't know that he's got a great all-around game and he's never been all that compelling to me with the ball in his hands from a RAC standpoint.
I think he can get open on routes and a good quarterback with great decision making and accuracy will be able to get him the football. But I don't know that I see him being a play maker at the next level.
I like Hopkins, but i don't put him in the same class as Allen. Allen is amazing off the LOS, incredibly smooth in/out of cuts and runs much better routes than Hopkins. Plus, he's bigger and has much better YAC. If Allen played on Clemson, his stats would be sick. Maynard was terrible this year.
I like the pure talent of Williams but I think Hopkins has a chance to end up being the best wideout from this class. Williams probably has better athleticism but I strongly believe that Hopkins has much better hands and route running ability, and he's just all around a more polished player. Would love either one with our 2a pick but Hopkins will probably be gone.
I think I would rather have Williams because of character. Not that Hopkins character is in question, but Willams seems to be well grounded like his head wont get big if he makes it big. he fits the mental makeup. henceforth the article.
I'm not a fan of Williams. I recognize that many evaluators love the kid and that he is both big and fast. But when I watch him I see a guy who has trouble getting off the line with press coverage, poor use of hands against defenders (he loses hand-fighting), hesitency over the middle, and difficulty in traffic. He just seems to have a world of problems with physical corners and seems to be scared of big hitters. I could be totally off with this assessment ... but when the speed and ferocity gets ramped up a notch in the NFL, he may be another Ted Ginn, Jr. with less speed.
Williams doesn't strike me as someone who just lacks muscle development becasue he's young. He seems to have the bulk, but just doesn't have the strength or will. Physically, I see him being the opposite of a Terrell Owens or Michael Irvin type of big physical dominator ... I see Terrance Williams losing every physical encounter. If you let him go free, he's got speed to burn, so he'll make his share of plays, but I think he'll be the guy who disappears for long stretches in many games.
I'm just wondering what tape there is out there of Williams being so bad at dealing with press. Can anyone point to anything specific?
Idk I took some time to look at both Williams and Hopkins and I still see Hopkins as the better playmaker. And Williams is only an inch or two taller and afew lbs heavier. As far as the deepthreat thing, I saw Hopkins catch as many if not more bombs than Williams did. I also saw the Senior Bowl and only saw Williams catch a couple balls and go out of bounds. Can you provide me a link of anything that can impress me because I'm just not convinced Williams to go higher than Hopkins. (Of course here's to is grabbing Patterson at 12 so we don't have to worry about either one he he he)
And what about this Da'Rick Rogers guy? The guy looks like he belongs in the conversation of WRs right after Patterson.
In fact I won't have problem with him as our first round pick if we trade down some spots bellow (let's say 10-15 spots).
He reminds me so much of Brian Hartline, except a notch faster. He has very good hands for the most part and can make some tough catches in traffic, and shows good ability to control his body in the air while making a catch. He even had some great toe drags in the games I saw (vs. Texas, vs. West Virginia). Where he seems to struggle is making guys miss. He rarely breaks tackles or shows the ability to get by a defender in a one on one situation, but if he has good blocking, he will usually hit the hole.
Again, I only watched those two games so take what I said with a grain of salt.
There isn't. I just looked through about 4 games of his and the Senior Bowl (quickly albeit) and I counted one time of getting jammed at the line and that was in the Senior Bowl. Granted I didn't go through each practice, but I couldn't find many instances of him being pressed at all, much less having trouble with it.
Williams is one of those guys I keep changing my mind on. I really liked him early on and then not so much, now I'm liking him again. I think people are projecting the bad off of press thing because it seems like it could be true with someone of his size. For what it's worth, my main concern is that it seems like he's awkward running double moves and other more 'complex routes'. Sometimes he gets into them and his arms start flailing a little bit, looking a bit awkward. I'm not sure if that's completely a bad thing or if it can be coached out. But that, not his ability to get off press, is my main concern.
I'm not trying to tell you that you have to like Terrance Williams. I respect your disagreement on him. I was just asking a question because I keep hearing about how bad he is dealing with press which is something I've not really seen at all. He wasn't the most advanced at it during the Senior Bowl practices I saw televised but I also saw him at those practices getting beyond the jam and separating, making plays.
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IMO, slow. Wouldn't surprise me if he ran close to a 4.6.
senior bowl one on ones williams had a tough time getting off press...he also measured out shorter than expected not as big a wr as i thought...can get vertical but needs to use his hands more...he's not a top 50 guy for me...i like him more late 2nd early 3rd...runs pretty good routes...i don't think dbs can just sit on his routes and squat like i saw a lot of guys doing senior bowl week...but he needs to get off the line better...hurts his stock for me some
I think he's good in tight, physical coverage. He separates. He's used to working with a condensed space at Baylor because in that offense they always have wide receivers on both sides lined up outside the numbers...the widest splits in college ball. He's got a narrow patch of grass to work with when it comes to getting open vertically but he does it with regularity.
At the Senior Bowl in practice I saw him not handle the press as quickly as some of the other guys (Markus Wheaton), but I also saw him creating separation after the press and making plays on the football.
drick rodgers may not be a burner i think he's a mid to late 4.5's guy but he's got sweet feet for his size and some wiggle...his problem is gonna be character and off the field stuff...i don't think ireland and philbin will touch him
I can respect that. Though I'm reading that Da'Rick Rogers runs in the 4.33/4.44 range. But I look forward to the Combine just in case that's just propaganda.
williams also got a ton of clean releases at baylor...rarely pressed...so he was able to get off the los and into his routes unimpeded...may just be he needs more time to work on hand use and physicality at the los and to get off guys i do really like the way though he plays the sideline and tight spaces so well...thats something for instance clyde gates never figured out...he just let dbs ride him right out of bounds and gave the qb no target...
i like williams more than hopkins...dbs will have to respect williams ability to get over the top on him...which will open up some things underneath for him...
I think that's some heavy propaganda. Doesn't run that fast on the field, that's for sure.
yeah there's no way he's blazing 4.33...doesn't play anywhere near that fast...late 4.5's
While this is true, Terrance Williams is merely one member of a club with more members than the AARP when it comes to this issue in college football.
As for what he showed in the Senior Bowl I just think we have to be careful not to over-rate the importance. How many televised snaps would you estimate you saw of Williams getting pressed at Senior Bowl practices? Maybe 2? Maybe 3? And I do recall specifically at least one of those he got off the jam and into his route, created a nice amount of separation.
absolutely all the soft coverage looks in college football are a problem when it comes to evaluating wrs...heck they wouldn't even let you press the wrs in the senior bowl game...all off coverages...so it's not like you can look to there for anything...
i don't think i have a problem with t williams at #56 for us...i wouldn't pull the trigger any higher though...not all that physical a wr i don't see a lot of rac and making guys miss there with the ball in his hands...but i do like that dbs can't sit on stuff with him and he has deceptive long speed...i'd like it more though if he was a little bigger than he came in at...
I also see Terrance Williams' physicality being questioned while he's out on the route. I think that's fair at times. But let's not pretend this is an easy one to peg.
There's this play on the ball in physical coverage, which is just fantastic:
When you see a play like this, you see him dive to the ground. But is that because he's afraid of contact? Or because he has a keen awareness of where the 1st down marker is and doesn't want to risk getting hit high and driven backward just shy of it, when he knows he can dive low and stick the ball over the marker he needs? You decide:
And maybe we all have different standards for what press coverage is...but this looks like press to me. Does he finish this catch? No. The corner did a good job reaching in after the catch and stripping the football as he's trying to secure the ball. But I thought the issue we're worried about is how he gets off the press? Here he does just that and creates separation.
Again here, we're worried about press, right? The corner here is IN press. Does he get hands on Williams? No. He can't, because Williams effectively used a jab step to prevent it. Defeating the press isn't all about being physically strong or using your hands. Using your feet to defeat the press is just as important as using your hands.
The man is criticized for physicality, and surely he doesn't win every block...but he sure did win this one which helped create about 10 more yards...
And this is also a 1st down producing block.
And this stood a fair chance at being a touchdown-producing block.
Here again is what I talked about before. Sometimes you see this and you think it's a tendency away from physicality, away from physically challenging the defender. Maybe it is. But it could also easily be a guy just prioritizing the 1st down marker.
This is tight, physical coverage deep down the field. Look how he uses his hands to create the separation needed to make this play. The corner complains about OPI but you're not often getting the flag for this at either level.
Here again...how do people see plays like this and come away thinking this guy can't handle physicality in coverage? Look how he uses his hands to physically get by a player trying to sit on his route. Then he finishes it off with a high point catch while a guy was physically draped on him.
And that's all just one game.
Also one thing to keep in mind is that during the Senior Bowl practices, especially the NORTH practices...those guys weren't just jamming receivers. They weren't just being physical with them. In games, about 3 out of every 5 of those reps would've drawn a flag. The defensive players were told to be physical, they got TOO physical, and nobody on the staff corrected them. They were guilty of textbook holding or pass interference like I said probably on 60 percent of the snaps, and it made evaluation of the receivers extremely difficult.
My goodness how did he catch this football. Feet in bounds? No. That wasn't possible, based on the timing and placement of the throw. But when it comes to evaluation you've got to look at raw skills. Look at the raw skill it took to hold onto this football all the way to the ground. That's NFL skill. Incidentally I'm pretty sure that should've been called a touchdown as per college rules. He scraped his left toe impossibly on the turf before it went out of bounds.
Nice physical catches on these 8 plays as well...
Man. Remember back when people questioned whether this guy could deal with physical coverage and make contested catches? Heh.
i don't consider press bail coverage to be true press...not when a db starts by taking a step backwards off the snap...i'm sure some of that has to do with williams jab step and footwork and the db being worried about getting beat deep so he's bailing...so that's a definite feather in williams cap
Nice vids, ck, thanks. I like how he works tight spaces in those spread sets; he uses space really well on the sidelines. And it looks like he has a knack for always making himself available by giving his QB a nice obvious target for where to place the ball. Good stuff.
Seems like Williams tries to avoid contact. I haven't seen much tape on the guy, so I'm not claiming I know anything, but from the little I've seen on him, it seems like he's diving to the ground before getting hit, running out of bounds, or not even trying to fight for extra yards. Hartline already struggles with getting yards after the catch. It just kinda seems like Williams shies away from contact. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
It's a valid observation. I don't think it's that big of a deal. He shows a tendency to care more about the sticks and getting the ball beyond the 1st down marker however he can than he does physically challenging the defenders coming at him. This tendency isn't the reason Brian Hartline is so bad after the catch. Hartline's lack of strength and balance are what make him bad after the catch. There are a few instances where Williams falls down after the catch. But he's young enough to work on that. Hartline is going to stay what he is, in that regard.
Yea looking at his clips he looks faster than 4.6 but definitely doesn't look no 4.3. He'll likely run something like 4.4 or 4.5. The commentators do mention him as a deep threat and "look at his speed" when he takes off running but it doesn't look no 4.3 that's for sure.