Best First Day in the AFC EAST

[dlockz]

I guess that really all depends on how much you trust Armando as well as how much you trust his sources. Personally, I don't know if he's earned that trust relative to Dave Hyde and his source within the Dolphins organization, which specifically said that Miami had Beck rated slightly higher than Brady Quinn.

Well Armando interviewed Mueller for 24 minutes and these were taken from the interview. Also shows we did try to trade down so we preferred to try to get Ginn lower. This shows that we did not really think Houston was taking him.

 

[ckparrothead]

Well Armando interviewed Mueller for 24 minutes and these were taken from the interview. Also shows we did try to trade down so we preferred to try to get Ginn lower. This shows that we did not really think Houston was taking him.

Mueller specifically said that he knows for a fact that there were two teams right below us that wanted Ted Ginn Jr, and that if we traded down, we would have lost him. So, I don't see how you can infer that they preferred to take Ginn lower.

If Mueller himself claims that Quinn was higher than Beck then I will believe him, but I'd want to see that language before I trust the intermediary (in this case Salguero).

 

[dlockz]

Mueller specifically said that he knows for a fact that there were two teams right below us that wanted Ted Ginn Jr, and that if we traded down, we would have lost him. So, I don't see how you can infer that they preferred to take Ginn lower.

If Mueller himself claims that Quinn was higher than Beck then I will believe him, but I'd want to see that language before I trust the intermediary (in this case Salguero).

So I guess Armando just lied in print and this was not taken from a 24 minute interview. As for trading down.

''We talked about it with several teams but never did we turn down a chance to go back,'' Mueller said. ``We didn't have a deal to be made. No one offered anything. It's pretty hard to trade down when you don't have an offer on the table.''

Thats an actual quote. Read the article and tell me that he just made this up as far as the rating of Beck. I would trust a named source over the famous unnamed source anyday because there is no one to verify if you don't name your source. You basically can say anything because who can disprove you.

http://www.miamiherald.com/614/story/93234.html

 

[ckparrothead]

So I guess Armando just lied in print and this was not taken from a 24 minute interview. As for trading down.

''We talked about it with several teams but never did we turn down a chance to go back,'' Mueller said. ``We didn't have a deal to be made. No one offered anything. It's pretty hard to trade down when you don't have an offer on the table.''

Thats an actual quote. Read the article and tell me that he just made this up as far as the rating of Beck. I would trust a named source over the famous unnamed source anyday because there is no one to verify if you don't name your source. You basically can say anything because who can disprove you.

http://www.miamiherald.com/614/story/93234.html

That IS an actual quote. But, it doesn't say what you are trying to imply that it says.

And I already said that IF Mueller said it in such a way as to make it clear that Quinn was rated higher than Beck, then I will believe it.

But you're an excellent case-in-point for why I'm skeptical of the intermediary. In this case, you take that Mueller quote and you believe it was as good as Randy Mueller saying that they would have preferred to take Ted Ginn Jr. lower than #9.

But the fact of the matter is that nowhere in that quote does Randy say that they PREFERRED to trade down, nor does it say that IF they did execute a trade down, they would still be targeting Ted Ginn Jr.

In this case, this is exactly what Armando Salguero writes:

• Contrary to reports, the Dolphins did not have a higher grade on second-round pick John Beck than Quinn. But Miami liked the Brigham Young University quarterback enough to try to trade up into the first round to assure themselves they would get him.

''We tried to move up to 31 and 32 to get Beck,'' Mueller said. ``We didn't make the deal, and it worked out.''

Had Beck been selected before Miami picked, Mueller would have selected Stanford's Trent Edwards.

Again, I have to express discomfort with Armando Salguero's powers of interpretation, considering he does not offer an exact quote from Randy Mueller. Mueller MAY NOT have been saying exactly what Armando took him to be saying...just as Mueller was clearly not saying what you have interpreted him to be saying re: Ted Ginn Jr. in a trade down.

 

[Mike13]

great write up CK.

 

[dlockz]

That IS an actual quote. But, it doesn't say what you are trying to imply that it says.

And I already said that IF Mueller said it in such a way as to make it clear that Quinn was rated higher than Beck, then I will believe it.

But you're an excellent case-in-point for why I'm skeptical of the intermediary. In this case, you take that Mueller quote and you believe it was as good as Randy Mueller saying that they would have preferred to take Ted Ginn Jr. lower than #9.

But the fact of the matter is that nowhere in that quote does Randy say that they PREFERRED to trade down, nor does it say that IF they did execute a trade down, they would still be targeting Ted Ginn Jr.

In this case, this is exactly what Armando Salguero writes:



Again, I have to express discomfort with Armando Salguero's powers of interpretation, considering he does not offer an exact quote from Randy Mueller. Mueller MAY NOT have been saying exactly what Armando took him to be saying...just as Mueller was clearly not saying what you have interpreted him to be saying re: Ted Ginn Jr. in a trade down.

Well Salguero did name his source so I guess people can believe what they want but that is far more powerful than the old unnamed source that everyone else has speculated with. Not to mention he was very exact with what he said. Too many people want to make our Beck pick look rosier than it does. If you like Beck fine but don't act like we had him rated above Quinn when there is no proof of that. We had Ginn rated higher and thats a fact but anything else beyond that is just people trying to fill in thier own blanks to justify thier case. I have seen only this newspaper article that has any statement from an actual newspaper writer that actually interviewed and named Mueller as saying that we did not have Beck rated higher than Quinn.
I trust this because he could easily be called out by Mueller or an actual person in the organization saying this was not the case unlike the infamous and convenient unnamed source. Has Armando been wrong before Yes, but this was not a matter of him speculating, these were from his notes from the interview. If people sleep better at night thinking that we thought Beck was a better prospect than Quinn, fine. That does not make it true. The only facts we know are we liked Beck somewhat better than Edwards and the Eagles liked Kolb better. I think I will trust the word of a reporter for a major newspaper who names his source more than anybody else on this board since
none of us has ever spoke with Mueller on this matter and he has.

 

[ckparrothead]

Well Salguero did name his source so I guess people can believe what they want but that is far more powerful than the old unnamed source that everyone else has speculated with. Not to mention he was very exact with what he said. Too many people want to make our Beck pick look rosier than it does. If you like Beck fine but don't act like we had him rated above Quinn when there is no proof of that. We had Ginn rated higher and thats a fact but anything else beyond that is just people trying to fill in thier own blanks to justify thier case. I have seen only this newspaper article that has any statement from an actual newspaper writer that actually interviewed and named Mueller as saying that we did not have Beck rated higher than Quinn.
I trust this because he could easily be called out by Mueller or an actual person in the organization saying this was not the case unlike the infamous and convenient unnamed source. Has Armando been wrong before Yes, but this was not a matter of him speculating, these were from his notes from the interview. If people sleep better at night thinking that we thought Beck was a better prospect than Quinn, fine. That does not make it true. The only facts we know are we liked Beck somewhat better than Edwards and the Eagles liked Kolb better. I think I will trust the word of a reporter for a major newspaper who names his source more than anybody else on this board since
none of us has ever spoke with Mueller on this matter and he has.

There is little doubt that there is a lack of proof on either side here. Hyde says one thing, Salguero says another. The meet in the middle could very well be that they had John Beck rated slightly better than Brady Quinn as a quarterback, but Brady Quinn rated slightly better as a draft prospect because of the age difference between them.

There is easy precedent for this. Randy Mueller stated that they had Paul Soliai rated "at least" two rounds higher than where they took him. Why did they let him fall? According to inside sources (again, unnamed) the high grade was based on his athleticism and film...but they allowed him to fall because of character concerns and a poor wonderlic.

So, truth be told, both Dave Hyde AND Armando Salguero could have been right...which goes back to what I was talking about with people not necessarily saying what you may think they are saying.

 

[BlueFin]

Well Armando interviewed Mueller for 24 minutes and these were taken from the interview. Also shows we did try to trade down so we preferred to try to get Ginn lower. This shows that we did not really think Houston was taking him.

Your reading too much into it, just because we considered, or more accurately, were willing to consider trading down, does not mean they felt they could get Ginn lower.

A smart GM is always willing to consider all his options, as no viable offer came, they took their man.

 

[ckparrothead]

Your reading too much into it, just because we considered, or more accurately, were willing to consider trading down, does not mean they felt they could get Ginn lower.

A smart GM is always willing to consider all his options, as no viable offer came, they took their man.

The best implication would be that Mueller believed it was at least possible that someone offered up an arm and a leg to where we'd be tempted to trade down as a more attractive option than taking Ted Ginn at #9. Important though, that does not mean they felt they could get Ginn lower, it just means Mueller could foresee the possibility that someone offers a package of picks that induce them to take the trade and lose Ted Ginn.

My guess is if someone offered a boatload to trade down they'd have done it and picked Brady Quinn lower.

 

[Phanatical]

After taking Lorenzo Booker, it would have been overkill to me to take DeShawn Wynn. Also, there's a reason Brandon Siler fell that far and trust me when I say that we do NOT know it yet. We're talking about a guy that was easily projected as a first day pick for a matter of a few years...and he falls all the way to the 7th without a sniff.

The tackle thing surprised me but it isn't quite as surprising now that we know their plan. I mean, Cameron made it pretty clear. He doesn't like 330 pound men at guard positions. He obviously decided that he was going to move L.J. Shelton AND Joe Toledo both back out to tackle where they belong...and what does that do? Gives us a total of like 5 tackles (Carey, Alabi, Shelton, Toledo, Rosenthal), with chopped liver along the interior (Stevenson, Liwienski, Hadnot, Ingram).

Now, this is just speculation on my part but I think it's pretty reasonable speculation, but I'm guessing that given that knowledge, and what we knew we had to do with those first two picks in the draft (Ted Ginn Jr., then quarterback)...I'm guessing they pretty much figured they're never going to be able to draft some tackles that are better than Carey, Shelton, Toledo, Alabi, and Rosenthal....but they can damn well draft some guards and centers that are better than Stevenson, Liwienski, Hadnot, and Ingram.

Who among tackles was available at #60? The best ones were James Marten and Doug Free, IMO. They obviously felt that Samson Satele was a might bit better of a center/guard prospect than Marten and Free were tackles, and Satele would be a whole lot more likely to be able to impact the team with guys like Liwienski, Stevenson, and Ingram ahead of him than Marten/Free would be able to with guys like Carey, Shelton, Toledo, and Alabi ahead of him. At #181...well, I'll be honest. I could try and argue that Adam Koets impacts more at tackle than Mormino at C/G, but really...with Shelton, Carey, Alabi, Toledo, and even Rosenthal ahead of him? I mean, taking Koets means moving some of those guys back inside and I don't think that is something they wanted to do, ideally.

Personally, I'm ALL ON BOARD with the Carey at LT thing. I graded him as our best left tackle two years ago when the coaching staff originally tried him there. Don't allow the media to convince you that he was a failed experiment at left tackle two years ago. The failed experiment was Stockar McDougle. Damion McIntosh expressed a CLEAR level of discomfort with his technique playing on the right side of the line, meanwhile Vernon Carey expressed a clear PREFERENCE for his technique playing on the right side of the line, and with Stockar McDougle stinking like week-old fish heads in tupperware, it was the SMART move to make...putting Carey back at RT and allowed McIntosh to play LT.

After that, I'm really kind of interested in what Shelton can do at RT, and if not him...to be honest, and I know he's walking wounded...but I'm interested in what Toledo can do there. I'm also fully interested in what they think Toledo can do at backup left tackle, which is where they were playing him in this last mini-camp before his foot acted up.

Yep, I'm all on board with the Tackle plan, and I see what they are TRYING to do, but, the problem with that plan is that Shelton hasn't proved he can play tackle, Toledo can't stay healthy long enough to get on the field, Alibi can't seem to stay healthy, and the veteran they brought in (Rosenthal) has been part of the walking wounded for a while too. Plus, if Carey doesn't work out at LT, then whose going to play there? It's a big gamble if you ask me. They might get lucky, Carey might work out at LT and someone else might actually be healthy long enough to play the other tackle position, but I would have felt a lot better If they drafted someone like Ugoh or Free or someone of that pedigree that might be able to come in and start right away.