Brady Poppinga: Gase might have lost the team

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Aquablood, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. NY8123

    NY8123 Sophisticated Redneck Administrator Finheaven VIP

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    Then I say lose the team. I am tired of player excuses in the NFL. The turnover rate of coaches is just mind numbing at this point and if a team quits on their coach.....just do what Buffalo did and get rid of the team. Time to jettison players for whatever you can get.
     
  2. Trade Viper

    Trade Viper Wicked Stop Hunter

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    If you think that Coach Shula did not listen to Marino, and Belichick doesn't listen to Brady, well you are mistaken. At some point between coach and QB there is no longer a coach and player, there is a partnership, oh and there is no doubt in my mind that Gase would had traded Ray Lewis, what a brilliant idea that would have been. (shhhhhhh, I actually asked Coach Shula this question)

    "PUNISH THE PLAYERS, there are many ways of doing this (running gassers, undesirable positions, suspensions, voiding contracts, waiving players, if they don't like this, IT DOESN'T MATTER. They are worker bees, worker bees should not set policy nor have an opinion in the operation of any organization (unless if asked, and this should be done RARELY and only to a select few.) NFL players are not that rare, it is a fallacy that there are too few, look at the patriots. Are they superior athletes? NO they are not, they however all conform to a single vision "DO YOUR JOB" as defined by the management. Don't do it, expect corrective actions to be taken, no if, no butts."

    Yesss, that will work, no doubt.

    When a manager/coach is incompetent, nobody wants to work for them or put forth the effort, so logically, if you want out, you ask for a trade, some folks can't handle that, so they become disruptive to the point a trade is without doubt the only solution. For me, there were two times I walked out of a job with no notice where the Manager was a Psychopath, and then not return their calls, it was great, in football you really can't do that, so some guys find other alternatives.

    By the way Wes Welker has a SB ring, and there is a high probability that Jay Ajayi will get one also. So there is that.

    The Ever Having No Respect For Linear Thinkers Under 140 VIPER
     
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  3. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    Access to what? The Vikings locker room
     
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  4. Trade Viper

    Trade Viper Wicked Stop Hunter

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    Yeah who knows, what I saw, was a team playing hard without cohesion, direction, or logic. Losing the lockeroom is a big statement, I think what we will see this week will tell the tale. But as far as Brady P is concerned, his guess is as good as anyones.

    The Ever Wondering At Media VIPER
     
  5. BlueFin

    BlueFin Seer of Visions Finheaven VIP

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    Ridiculous....Moore is a backup and only decent in that role.

    With Tannehill out....swinging for the fences with Cutler was worth a shot.

    Matt Moore is not leading this to anything matters...obviously neither is Cutler....but we it was a possibility.

    Frankly, this team is far from having all the pieces in place...and lacking a bonafide starter only makes it worse.

    Get rid of the quitters....and continue building a real team next year.
     
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  6. Mrmeeseeks

    Mrmeeseeks Well-Known Member

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    I guess you don't believe in the intangibles of leadership.
     
  7. phintim

    phintim Seasoned Veteran

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    Well this time next year Gase will either have the locker room in order or if we are still looking this pathetic and disorganized in the games as we are now he will be our the door. Making the QB look good was his job now his job is to win games and if he can't do that Ryann Tannehills sucess won't do him any good.
     
  8. <O>

    <O> Well-Known Member

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    And that's probably the central problem of this season -- the inability to place blame on Cutler where it belongs, due to Gase's need to preserve his image as a "quarterback whisperer."

    If you petition the front office to sign a guy, how can you be the quarterback whisperer we hired you to be if he's your guy and you can't coax even average play out him?

    It must be someone else's fault. In this case it's the other players.

    This is why it's the locker room against Gase, and this is why he's lost the team.
     
  9. fin415

    fin415 Rookie

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    And who is our Marino or Lewis on this team? There are only a handful of players in the league that get treated that way: a top X (7ish?) QB and that once in a generation transcendent player like a Lewis. Everyone else is one or two bad interactions with a coach / blown big play away from being benched, traded, or cut.

    When nothing is working, as a (business) manager or coach, you look for ways to get peoples attention. We keep blaming Gase for all the problems on the field -- and since he's the head coach, we should. But we don't know how much is bad coaching, reduced playbooks because the players can't handle the playbook as an individual or unit, how many players are freelancing for stats (for future contacts or existing contact play fors) or just trying so hard because they really care that they are blowing their assignments instead, playing hurt (or more hurt than they have told anyone), OR young coaches that still haven't figured out how to coach a team effectively. What we do know is killing us: our team sucks and still has a ton of holes.

    What we also know is at least one player, one of our most effective, was blowing things up (not the good way) on and off the field enough that they we willing to trade him mid-season for very little. If you think that was just for show or a coach being petulant (and risking a possibly once in a lifetime job), you're delusional.

    When you are a star or there are so many jobs available, you can walk out on a job. When you are a professional, you find ways to make things work. When you are a professional in a world where there are a fixed number of jobs and a LOT more people than available positions, you're taking one hell of a risk by behaving badly. That being said, you do have an agent who's job it is to play 13 demential chess and figure out if the stars have a chance of aligning such that you'll have a shot of landing another gig. If you are more or less in the top 25%/35% of your position, the answer is almost always going to be yes. After that, it's one hell of a risk.

    If you think the coaches and GMs don't talk (a.k.a. references) and that lesser skilled / older players can't play themselves out of town, you're watching a different league than I am.
     
  10. fin415

    fin415 Rookie

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    There is nothing Moore can do as a leader that would make the team play any better. He could be George Patton and it wouldn't change a thing. He's an 11 year backup because of his limitations -- not one team wanted him enough to make any kind of an offer when he was a free agent. What do you know that every other team in the NFL apparently missed?

    On paper, Cutler should have been better. In practice, they both are lacking, just for very different reasons.
     
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  11. Mrmeeseeks

    Mrmeeseeks Well-Known Member

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    Not Moore. Gase. We're not dealing with Madden players where you can just pick up a player with a better rating and all the players are unaffected. Tannehill went down with Moore as the backup. Moore had been with the team, was respected and played with a lot of heart regardless of how average he was.
    So what does Gase do? Throws $10 million at an uninspiring guy who does not play with any fire and isn't enough of an upgrade to justify throwing a great teammate under the bus. Imagine your favorite coworker is passed over for some outsider who isn't much better at the job but is making twice as much now. Would you trust management? Of course not. That's bad leadership. It's nepotism over team.
     
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  12. Mrmeeseeks

    Mrmeeseeks Well-Known Member

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    Fwiw, Wes Welker does not have a super bowl ring. He's played in 3, though. A better argument is that 12 former Dolphins played for that 16-0 Patriots team. And the list of contributors for New England that never had a shot in Miami is extensive. Coaches that coach get the most out of players. Gase can't coach.
     
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  13. Dolphins81

    Dolphins81 Well-Known Member

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    It’s almost like we are the Patriots farm team.
     
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  14. fin415

    fin415 Rookie

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    I don't think nepotism means what you think it does... (yes, I know the point you were going for and it's somewhat fair, but see my comments) ;-)

    1. Very few teams have 2 legit players at QB on their rosters. I would guess thats because A) good DB's are rare with 1/2 the starters in this league not really being that good; B) every #2 thinks they should be the #1; C) eventual cap issues; D) if they are even close to having the possibility of being a #1, see comment 1A -- at least 15 teams would make a run at them every year.
    2. So, without a QB on the team that's good enough to really start once RT went down, we have to look at the players available. Since we're not knee deep in draft picks to throw away and because the talent available via draft picks we could use didn't rise to that value in the FO's opinion (one I agree with), we move onto the unemployed.
    3. Ignoring all the after-the-fact arm chair GM'ing, I'm going with the reason everyone was unemployed (see 1A) is because the all had some significant flaws.

    So, in a world with no good solutions, what kind of risk mitigations are available? The best one out there is working with a player that you know well and who already knows your playbook, someone you felt you could successfully coach up because *you believed you already pulled it off once before*. In theory, you know the players strengths and weaknesses walking in the door at a level far better than watching tape and calling peers for references. Thats as close as you can get to your Madden plug and play player in the real world. What you don't know is how much the time away from the game and/or Father Time will hurt, an interesting year-in and year-out risk in the NFL.

    You can say it was a bad decision, and in hindsight, it clearly was. But the Bronco's made it work with an long past anything near his prime Payton Manning with half an arm. For that one year, they are geniuses because it worked and they won the big game. But if it didn't work, we'd be having this conversation. Gase looks bad because we're losing. Moore has proven that he doesn't offer anything better than Cutler, just different kinds of bad, and clearly, some think its actually a worse kind of bad. The $10M cap hit was worth the risk if it had paid off and not so bad because it's a one-and-done contract.

    "Throwing a great teammate under the bus" -- so, now you're ok with losing to not hurt a fellow teammates feelings? How does a coach actually coach in that environment? What do you say the all the players who have bonuses tied to performance in their contacts? "I know you could have caught another 10 balls this year, and I know that you would have made an extra $3,000,000, but Matt really worked hard all those years as a backup". I'm starting to wonder if people raising that argument aren't employment/contract lawyers really pushing for a lifetime gig.

    A real teammate understands that it's the coaches and GMs job to make the best decisions they can, even if they don't agree with them, and just as it's their job to play their best even when they are losing. They should do this just because that's what professionals do, but if for no other reason to be a *great* teammate and help everyone get to their contact escalators. I've never been a fan of Eli Manning, but my respect for him went up off the chart this last week. He knows what it means to be a great teammate -- he didn't take up the offer to keep starting just to pad his stats, he told the team to get their business done right. And the reports and coming in that he's still in the building early and working with the other QBs to make sure they get all the help he can offer. Now that's a great teammate and a real professional.
     
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  15. coalesce

    coalesce Dolphin Fan since 1974

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    And Gase had nothing to do with those twelve players, although your point is indeed a valid one. Talent evaluaion has been a bugaboo for this team for decades. Eddie Blake. Billy Milner. Jackie Shipp. Jay Brophy. George Little. John Avery. I’d continue to list names, but I don’t want to run my phone’s battery all the way to zero.
     
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  16. ReppinThe941

    ReppinThe941 Well-Known Member

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    Gase has 100% lost this team...

    Ross should can him and Tbaum now...
     
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  17. Dolphins81

    Dolphins81 Well-Known Member

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    Lol, just wait until they lose a few more. He will really lose the team. I doubt they win another game. But Ross won’t fire any of these bums.
     
  18. Trade Viper

    Trade Viper Wicked Stop Hunter

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    "I know that Harry, but can he do the job, I'm not arguing that with you, I'm not arguing that with you Harry, if I had said that I would have been wrong, I know he can get the job, but can he do the job"

    As a public service announcement, Wes Welker did not win a super bowl ring, only was in 3 AFC championships. (Thanks to Mr, you made me look it up)



    And who is our Marino or Lewis on this team? There are only a handful of players in the league that get treated that way: a top X (7ish?) QB and that once in a generation transcendent player like a Lewis. Everyone else is one or two bad interactions with a coach / blown big play away from being benched, traded, or cut.

    That wasn't my point, my point was to MFan and his "the beatings will continue until moral improves" theory. IF and this is a big IF, Gase thinks that the whole team are insubordinate, and unwilling to "get with the program" then he should dump everyone, no matter the contract or cost, then start over. In this way he can show everyone who is Boss, like a Boss. Then he can hand pick his players, and never have to blame anyone else, never, ever, ever never again.

    When nothing is working, as a (business) manager or coach, you look for ways to get peoples attention. We keep blaming Gase for all the problems on the field -- and since he's the head coach, we should. But we don't know how much is bad coaching, reduced playbooks because the players can't handle the playbook as an individual or unit, how many players are freelancing for stats (for future contacts or existing contact play fors) or just trying so hard because they really care that they are blowing their assignments instead, playing hurt (or more hurt than they have told anyone), OR young coaches that still haven't figured out how to coach a team effectively. What we do know is killing us: our team sucks and still has a ton of holes

    What we also know is at least one player, one of our most effective, was blowing things up (not the good way) on and off the field enough that they we willing to trade him mid-season for very little. If you think that was just for show or a coach being petulant (and risking a possibly once in a lifetime job), you're delusional.

    OK, lets turn this around, your income is based on salary and bonus, but your bonus depends on how well your "group" or "team" leader performs. Your team leader from last year gets sick, takes a leave of absence, and your boss, hires a buddy of his that has been known to be an idiot, moron, and not very capable of capitalizing on his talents. You know for a certainty, that you will not make your big bonuses like you did last year. How would you feel, would you say oh thank you sir may I have another?????

    When you are a star or there are so many jobs available, you can walk out on a job. When you are a professional, you find ways to make things work.

    If you are a professional the only thing that matters are the Benjamins, loyalty to a corporation or anyone you work for is misplaced, in this world, Darwinian Capitalism is the order of the day. IF Jay Ajayi wins an afc championship with the Ravens, it will be one more than Gase will ever win.

    Oh and I am delusional, as Mrs VIPER will attest to, I have this delusion that a football team should progress, not regress, also that if S. Ross gets the right people in the FO, the right coach, and the right team, the fins will win a super bowl, so yeah, I am delusional.

    The Ever Deluded VIPER
     
  19. RobertHorry

    RobertHorry Scout Team

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    The issue with your point is that Moore is terrible. He can't run Gase's offense and call any presnap reads or protections.
     
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  20. andyahs

    andyahs Bahamian Redneck Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Gase stays long term. First Tanbum though.
     
  21. fin415

    fin415 Rookie

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    Viper, I think you have a well reasoned response, but I find myself unpersuaded.

    I don't believe Gase is unhappy with the entire team. I don't believe he would 'fire the whole lot of them'. I do believe that we're at that place where everyone is just pushing so hard that we're getting the opposite effect and under instead of over achieving. I do believe that everyone is in that 'hair on fire' mode where nothing seems to work. I also believe that Gase isn't all that happy with himself either, but at the end of the day, the guys who put on the pads are the only once who can be on the field.

    No matter what you think of the front office, we fielded at 10-6 playoff team (before you scream luck, every team gets some of that every now and then) just a year ago. Not that much changed in personnel (at least with players that we really cared about) or coaches, so you have to look at the impact of a starting QB going down before the start of the season.

    I manage large teams of engineers for a living. And while I can't tell you from experience that things map one-to-one with a football team, I can tell you that every now and then, after you've tried all the things you know how to do to get a person/team/project on track, you pull out the big guns to get peoples attention. In the tech world, we have the 'mythical' 10x productivity folks (really more like 2 or 3x in real life, but that's worth a lot) -- and they really do exist -- but much of the time, they have 'special needs' in order to work effectively with others. Sometimes, no matter how much you need their higher productivity or specialized knowledge, they just cause so much extra friction across so many other people that you win with the classic addition by subtraction. Other times, it's that person who flashed so much potential that suddenly tops out, but now that you've done all the things to keep them (e.g., given you can get a new job around here without even having to ride an elevator off your floor, comp flows all too freely to buy a year or two of loyalty), suddenly you have an under performer taking a limited space and/or getting over comp'ed in ways that's bad for the overall budget and you are forced to go in different directions for the health of the team.

    You analogy about the boss hiring an "idiot/moron" happens all the time. In our case, Cutler is so under performing expectations, with a team that was so balanced on the edge of average that it all came crashing down. The thing is, Moore has his set of problems too. But while you are correct in pointing out our QB play blows and as result, we're getting the worst out of everyone across the team, what we don't have is any idea of what would/could have been better? Also, without being in the locker room or at team meetings, you (we) don't really know if the entire team feels it's all on our QBs or if they see the fact that everyone is off by 2 or 3 percent and in the NFL, that takes you from the playoffs to thinking about a top 5 draft.

    But I do get it. As fans, we're all really ready for this team to turn things around, and for a little longer than just 10 games....

    Thanks for the fair and spirited discussion :)

    P.S. If Jay Ajayi wins an AFC championship with the Ravens, it will be something for the record books and he'll go down as one of the worst players in the history of the NFL given that he plays for the Eagles... ;-)
     
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  22. Mrmeeseeks

    Mrmeeseeks Well-Known Member

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    And if that were true, which it isn't, then it is Gase's fault for keeping a backup on the roster at 4 million with a starter coming off a knee injury, and that backup apparently can't play. It always comes back to Gase no matter how you spin it.
     
  23. Mrmeeseeks

    Mrmeeseeks Well-Known Member

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    No, I used nepotism correctly. Moore was no less a guarantee failure than Cutler was. You say Gase had worked with Cutler, but he'd worked with Moore just as long. And he won games with Moore at the same clip as Cutler. Then you add in the intagible factors of Cutler coming from the outside, being paid 10 million, and nobody in the league liking him while Moore plays his *** off and players respect it, then you end up with exactly what I mentioned.

    So your argument is pretty much void.
     
  24. fin415

    fin415 Rookie

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    Nepotism: the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs.

    Cutler, as far as anyone knows isn't a relative, and you are confusing having a friendly relationship with the word friend (e.g., unless Gase was calling his friend and asking about the family or inviting him over for dinner, it was a friendly professional relationship) and to quote some posters around here, that would make your argument void.

    "He worked with Moore at the same clip as Cutler" is only true if you don't think coaching a player in actual games isn't that important. Moore is a fantastic #2 if all you need is running the second team, a smart guy who can help during practice, works hard to help the #1 in all the ways a NFL #2 needs to in order for the team to be successful. If you add in the requirement of a guy who can come in for a couple of plays, maybe a game or two, he's still pretty good.

    But once you look at him as a guy to play for a season, you'd be nuts to count on him. Now you can point out all of Cutlers flaws, how some players didn't like him, etc. But despite all of them, he was a #1 for years -- and as bad as you might think he was as a #1, that makes him better than almost every #2 out there. Of course, based on your tone and response to me, you don't agree and thats fine. I'm going to side with the 31 other teams, who for 11 years with 15 or so teams every year who would upgrade in an instant (didn't someone around here once say "I would play Satin if it would help us win games") if they could, who by their actions say my side of the argument is correct.

    Your other argument of Cutler being paid $10m pissing off other players because he's only as/not as good as Moore is 100% hindsightism. If he was winning, that argument would turn into "Gase was a genius and we got a steal at $10m" because starting caliber QBs seem to run $20m these days. A more legitimate argument is that when Cutler decided to retire, no one made a run at him which would strongly suggest that he was done. Unfortunately for us, our guys who are responsible for adding it all up decided that we were well and truly screwed when RT went down, call a Hail Marry. It didn't work.
     
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  25. Digital

    Digital Starter

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    Hey Mr. Poppinga,

    It's really a shame that Gase has lost the team. They might have enjoyed celebrating the win with him today. Food for thought for those who carved his tombstone.
     
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  26. Mrmeeseeks

    Mrmeeseeks Well-Known Member

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    They beat Gase's own understudy who has sank Denver and has lost his own team. Not exactly a "haha told ya so" kind of argument or game. Come back when Gase can beat a winning team.
     
  27. Mrmeeseeks

    Mrmeeseeks Well-Known Member

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    Denver is a great example of what coaching does. Phillips and Kubiak were winning consistently. The roster hasn't fallen off that much. What's new? Coaching.
     
  28. FSU Truth

    FSU Truth The North Remembers Finheaven VIP

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    That team is awful because Elway is one of the few GMs that drafts worst then the Fins front office.
     
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  29. MadDog 88

    MadDog 88 Smoke 'em Jay Finheaven VIP

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    Has nothing to do with beating a team with a losing record. They thrashed Denver and that doesn’t happen if the team has tuned the coach out. The Dolphins have numerous issues but having a coach that lost the locker room isn’t one of them.
     
  30. Mrmeeseeks

    Mrmeeseeks Well-Known Member

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    Well then I guess Miami should've kept Wannstedt when they whooped the Rams for their first win in 2004.

    This is Gase's first win this season, and only 2nd win since Pittsburgh last year, where Miami won by more than one score. Not even Joe Philbin had such trouble beating teams up. His last full season featured a 37-0 beat down of the Chargers and a 22-9 win over the Bills. He must've had that team motivated and prepared, eh?
     
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  31. raving

    raving Starter

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    I agree.

    This season broke my back as a fan.

    It is somehow worse for me then Cam Cameron.

    The team is arguably as bad as that 1-15 season.

    Maybe it was the 4 humiliating defeats on national TV.

    Maybe it was the endless bad coaching decisions.

    Something about Julius Thomas REALLY irks me - he is such a waste and Gase had/has so much positive to say about him.

    Maybe its that scrub Chase at linebacker.

    Maybe its our AWFUL offensive line with players who are paid bank but never show up!


     
  32. Mrmeeseeks

    Mrmeeseeks Well-Known Member

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    Lol what?
     
  33. DisturbedShifty

    DisturbedShifty Shifty Gold Administrator Finheaven VIP

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    What was hard to understand? Elway sucks at drafting players. It wasn't that hard to understand.
     
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  34. FSU Truth

    FSU Truth The North Remembers Finheaven VIP

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    2014...

    Bradly Roby - 14 starts in 4 seasons...
    Cody Latimore - 30 total receptions

    2015...
    Shane Rey - 13 starts out of 3 seasons
    Ty Shambrallio - not even on the team anymore

    2016...
    Paxton Lynch - yep
    Adam Gotis - he's been solid
    Justin Simmons - most likely his best pick in the last 3 years.
     
  35. rent this space

    rent this space Starter Finheaven VIP

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    I saw guys playing hard for their coach all game yesterday. Gase hasn't lost this team yet.
     
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  36. Lionstone

    Lionstone A True Fan

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    It did not look like he lost the team Sunday. As a group, we need to realize winning consistently in the NFL is not easy. Having a consistently good coaching staff like the Patriots have is perhaps the most difficult aspect of winning consistently. Coach Gase has a lot to learn about being a head coach, but relating to his player is not one of them. I doubt he will ever lose his team’s to the point that they fail to give effort.
     
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  37. DolfanISS

    DolfanISS Perennial All-Pro Finheaven VIP

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    You mean teams like the Falcons and Titans? Ok we'll come back when that happens.
     
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  38. Mrmeeseeks

    Mrmeeseeks Well-Known Member

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    Roby is their Nickel corner and probably the league's best. He plays behind Talib and Harris, Jr so counting his starts is useless.
    Shane Rey, again, played behind two stars in Ware and Miller. Von Miller. The defensive rookie of the year Von Miller drafted by Elway. Super Bowl MVP Von Miller. You telling me Miami has drafted a player of his caliber.
    He also nabbed Derek Wolfe, Malik Jackson, Danny Trevathon, Omar Bolden and Ronnie Hillman in one draft.
     
  39. FSU Truth

    FSU Truth The North Remembers Finheaven VIP

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    You honestly think that is a talented team...
     
  40. Aquablood

    Aquablood Well-Known Member

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    Looking forward to the excuses after next week.
     

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