Cornerstone of Saban's Defense Still Missing

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ckparrothead, Sep 26, 2005.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    http://www.palmbeachpost.com/dolphins/content/sports/epaper/2005/09/26/a17c_elmore_0926.html

    Some very good points in this article.

    This is something we're going to be seeing all year long so we should definitely get use to it. Teams are going to continue to TRY to test our secondary and spread us out.

    I say try because first thing is first, if you want to even get the ball out of your hands, you have to withstand the pressure we put on you first. You have to not get sacked, not get the ball batted, not get pressured into making an inaccurate throw, and hold out long enough for your receiver to develop a money position on our secondary guys.

    Still, in retrospect I still say it would have been nice to have managed to get Corey Webster in the 2nd round. Nothing against Matt Roth, but having Webster AND Daniels right now would go a long way toward solving a lot of our problems in the secondary, while I don't think Roth is contributing much on the DL yet (it will obviously take some time for him to come into his own).

    Webster, in the meantime, is doing very well with the Giants and probably would be doing way better in the system he played in college. Damn shame.
     
  2. byroan

    byroan A True Fan

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    Do you think we would have still drafted Daniels had we been able to take Webster in the 2nd?
     
  3. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    It's possible. We may have drafted Orton. I think we were targeting Crowder in the 3rd no matter what, and in the 4th we would have wanted a DL but there were no intriguing names out there so it would have been Daniels or Orton IMO, and I do think Nick would believe that corner was important enough to get both Webster and Daniels. But in the end who knows, we may have gone for Orton after all.

    BTW I know Orton is a rookie but he and Gus Frerotte are pretty prime examples of why preseason is preseason and can be taken with a grain of salt a lot of times.
     
  4. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Out with LaMaga, in with Talita!

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    yeah, the hindsight looks great on webster now. and to have both of them right now would make me feel better about the pass D. however, nobody could have known about poole's injury. the loss of will poole was huge. i still think the secondary will improve as they take their lumps. maybe it's hope?
     
  5. hunter5nc1

    hunter5nc1 A True Fan

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    I doubt we would have but knowing what we know now I think it woul;d have been great to get both of them.
     
  6. MichFin80

    MichFin80 FinHeaven VIP

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    You can bet Buffalo will try to exploit this weakness and also expect Saban to make some changes scheme wise to adjust. Since I don't expect any players being signed anytime soon we'll have to wait and see how he attempts to fix this problem.
     
  7. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    Buffalo won't be able to exploit anything until they put Kelly Holcombe in at QB.
     
  8. Awsi Dooger

    Awsi Dooger A True Fan

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    I'm glad we didn't take Orton. He has an elongated delivery and that won't allow him to become a top flight NFL QB. The Bears can pretend all they want. I'm going to continue to bet against this guy when they face a playoff caliber team and QB, like today. Palmer vs. Orton isn't exactly close.

    No question our defense will improve dramatically once we get one more offseason to plug personnel holes. This is a good example of a coach applying his system and not molding it to fit the current personnel. The latter strategy is overhyped and flawed, IMO. You've got to do what you believe in and let the players learn and adjust. It also shows you who can adapt to your methods and excel in them, and who can't. You don't learn or accomplish anything by constantly accepting one less than ideal strategy after another simply because it supposedly fits your personnel. That's like the copout coach who wants to pretend a steady diet of 3 yard swing passes is the same as equal number of rushing attempts. They don't last long.
     
  9. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    Hmm, well I'm not so sure we'll improve dramatically next year. We bought some one-year stop-gap type players this year. We'll have to find more of those next year. Madison could be gone (cut), Holliday could be gone (cut, his 2 year deal is really more like a 1 year deal), and Traylor could be gone. Taylor and Zach a year older (they ARE human ya know) and Seau likely retired.

    We'll have our work cut out for us. Important to keep drafting well. I doubt he becomes a full-fledged UFA due to his importance in Nolan's system, but Peterson as a LOLB in the 3-4 and a SSLB in 4-3 looks good as a pick up.
     
  10. P4E

    P4E Cogito, Ergo FinFanum

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    Yeah, but... we still had a healthy Will Poole on draft day. If Nick had grabbed Webster early and had a healthy Poole to refine a bit (Nick tending to focus much of his direct coaching on secondary), he'd have three starting-caliber CBs and a very capable nickel in Madison, Webster and Poole... with the additional depth of Howard. Not perfect, but probably not such an area of need that another CB would be at the top of the list in round 4.

    Of course, if we got to round 5 and Daniels was still on the board, I can't imagine that Nick would pass on that value.
     
  11. endorPHINS72

    endorPHINS72 Restore the greatness!

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    I doubt Holliday and Traylor are cut unless their level of play dramatically decreases. The impact of both of those two players is part of the reason our run defense is so good this year.
     
  12. Huffer

    Huffer Loyal Phins Fan

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    I live in Iowa and I'm a dedicated Hawkeye fan and can give a little insight into what I think are the strengths and weaknesses of Roth. Was he a legit second rounder?...... I don't know. Here is the skinny on him from my point of view.

    Positives
    Great motor- the guy will give 110%
    Good strength- Good power rusher and can fill his gap
    Rises to the occasion- Seems like he would(in college) find a way to make a play at key times in the game or that would change the game.

    Negetives
    Relies to much on his strength- needs to develope more pass rush techniques to help his "bull rush" technique.
    Needs discipline- Lost contain at times in college especially on the play action and tends to draw more than his share of personal foul penalties.
    Struggles in space- In preseason he struggled with coverage when asked to do so. Understandable since he rarely covered in college.

    Overall
    I think he will be a solid addition to our defense. Right now though I think he is kind of a fish out of water. He was basicly asked to stuff the run or rush the passer in a very vanilla defense at Iowa. Once he is comfortable and confident in what he is doing I think he will look more like a second round pick. He is tough and will hit people.

    I think Saban must have assumed that Howard would play better than he has thus far. Not making excuses for Howard but maybe once he feels comfortable with the system he will become better individually. Seems like he's been under the gun since he got toasted by Muhamed in the HOF game. To bad we couldn't have picked up Ty Law in free agency. That guy is a one man wrecking crew at corner. His technique is awsome and his instinct usually puts him in good position. Like Saban always says "it is what it is, and that's what we're going with".
     
  13. Maynard the Hammer

    Maynard the Hammer you are the nail

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    as far as this season goes, any game where we face a team that has 2 or 3 good recievers is gonna be a long day
     
  14. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins FinHeaven VIP

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    First - on the article. It pointed out the blatantly obvious issue of the need for better CB play - but, that's not the "cornerstone" of this defense. While Saban's defense is subtly different from Belichick's, the overall philosophy is very similar. CB is also not the cornerstone of Belichick's D. The fact is, the CB play is poor right now. But, who knew that Madison would be that bad? And, Will Poole's injury certainly hurt.

    Second - losing Madison will not be a big blow to this D. They need CB improvement regardless of whether Madison is here or not. Daniels should become a starter next year and they will need two solid cover guys to be added to the mix. Depending on Poole's recovery, he has some excellent potential. Another CB in the draft or free agency will be necessary.

    However, we should have a good shot at retaining some of the veterans - especially if the D plays well and they believe in the system. The Dolphins will lose Seau, in all likelyhood. But, they will potentially be $20-25 million under the cap. They will need to draft well and make the right moves - but given what Saban did this year, I think we can be confident he will continue to improve the defense.
     
  15. Surferosa

    Surferosa Run to Daylight

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    So am I to understand that Madison WASNT the guy that was beat on the majority of Smiths catches? I know he collided with Tillman on the 53 td TD, but was he responsible for most of the other plays?

    The article seems to blame Howard for most of the blown coverages....
     
  16. jbond

    jbond Pro Bowler

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    If I'm not mistaken, Howard was primarily covering him the 1st 1/2 and Madison was picking him up quite a bit in the 2nd.
     
  17. HysterikiLL

    HysterikiLL A True Fan

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    This is what I've been saying!!!! Everyone has been ripping into Madison blaming him for poor defense....a lot of the time Madison dropped into cover zone and because Howard was so horrible in coverage, Madison ended up on Smith half the time. Then he'd get ripped for letting Smith make the play.

    Towards the end of the game, we put Madison on Smith but it was evident we weren't pressing Sam as Nick and Richard were looking to clue our safeties and allow them to shadow due to the blindside of Sam. This ultimately caused the INT that won us the game.

    And this is back to the other topic, but after watching Shawne Merriman tonight, I think this guy would've been a freaking perfect fit in our OE. I'm not saying we should've drafted him or anything but he looks like he'd fit nicely. He makes hard hits too. I'll take him or David Pollack in a few years.
     
  18. Shouright

    Shouright A True Fan

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    The Poole injury really hurt. With him healthy you wouldn't see Reggie Howard on the field nearly as much. And Madison and Surtain were commenting on how good he was last preseason.
     
  19. LarryFinFan

    LarryFinFan Left So Fla, never the Fins...

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    I's a little dissapointed in the lack of consistency from the DL...they get pressure on 1st and 2nd down, the tend to let up on third...the Panthers did a good job on 3rd and short running right at us (that is their forte, tho). Then when it was apparant that Foster and Davis couldn't get it done for them today, they starting attacking our secondary, the same way as the Jests did. Delhomme, save for the INT, was very accurate and seem to hit his guys right in stride almost every pass. As much as the secondary is no doubt our weakness, the coverage was generally tight. We did have a lot of missed tackles and our guys running into each other that let Smith and co. get some YACs. Madison was apparently having his own little war with Smith, and lost. Howard played awful again and Daniels made his normal share of rookie mistakes, although his coverage was generally tight.

    I also would much rather have seen Webster here. Roth will be a good player for us, but needs to grow into the position, as you said. But, I'm sure we'll see some changes this coming offseason...I do like the job that Jones and Schulters are doing, although they've been a little inconsistent as well.

    This is what we are going to see for the rest of the season...the secondary will be innundated until they stop someone or say uncle...The key, as you said is pressure from the DL...
     
  20. Ryan1973

    Ryan1973 Pro Bowler

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    Saban will probably use a high draft pick next year on a cornerback. Poole coming back will help and Daniels will be better in his 2nd year. Also, Saban is high on the undrafted free agent he picked up from Missouri. I don't remember his name, but he is injured this year. He could be a factor next year. I remember hearing if he wasn't injured, he could have been drafted in the top 3 rounds.
     
  21. popularwar

    popularwar Perennial All-Pro

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    Just hoping for Poole to come back strong.
     

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