Coryell offense/ Miami new & old offense

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by mia4ever, Apr 8, 2007.

  1. mia4ever

    mia4ever Pro Bowler

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    The Basics of the Coryell Offense
    by Edweirdo. Thanks Eye_Patch for the info on Sid Gillman!
    posted on 2005/05/05
    Raiders head coach Norv Turner runs an offensive system known as the Coryell offense, which Don Coryell devised and brought to the NFL as head coach of the San Diego Chargers in the late 1970s. Simply put, the Coryell offense is the antithesis of the West Coast offense ("WCO"). In recent years, the explosive offenses of the Rams and the Chiefs have brought the Coryell offense back into the spotlight of the NFL. This article discusses:



    How the Coryell offense differs from the West Coast offense
    A brief history of the Coryell offense
    What are the personnel requirements for the Coryell offense
    What are the advantages of the Coryell offense
    How the Coryell offense differs from the West Coast offense
    The WCO has the following characteristics:


    It is a "ball-control" offense, predicated on the ability of the QB to achieve a high completion percentage
    The receivers often run precise short-to-intermediate routes and a lot of crossing routes and slants. The receivers are expected to pick up yards after the catch
    The QB takes more 3- and 5-step drops as opposed to 7-step drops



    When the QB and WRs are on the same page, it can be difficult to disrupt the rhythm of the offense
    It relies heavily on the receiving skills of backs coming out of the backfield
    The Coryell offense has the following characteristics:

    It is a "stretch-the-field vertically" offense, predicated on the complementary effects of throwing deep and running the football
    The receivers often run intermediate-to-long routes
    The QB takes more 5- and 7-step drops
    It emphasizes maximum pass protection, to protect the QB until the receivers get open downfield

    It is committed to the power running game. The running game opens up opportunities for big downfield completions, and vice versa. Mike Martz, in an interview with Dr. Z of CNN/SI said:

    That's another thing that's critical to the system. Power running. You've got to be able to run the ball when you go to a three-wide receiver set, and you've got to run with power. By that I mean behind zone blocking, which is a big departure from the San Francisco system. Theirs was man-blocking, with a lot of cut-blocks and misdirection. Ours is straight power. Not many people realize this, but if we hadn't have gotten Marshall we were prepared to go with another excellent zone-blocking runner, Robert Holcombe. It takes a certain type, a guy who can run with power, who's good at picking his way through. Stephen Davis is doing that in Washington now, and that's a big reason why their offense is so good...The good thing about zone-block running is that you can keep pounding away. You don't have the negative yardage plays.


    A brief history of the Coryell offense
    The Coryell offense didn't start with Coryell. Sid Gillman was the innovator of the vertical game back in the 1960s. Many members of Gillman's staff, including Al Davis and **** Vermiel have been adherents to the vertical game ever since. Coryell adapted Gillman's ideas into the system that now bears his name.



    There are several notable implementers of the Coryell offense in the league today: Joe Gibbs in WAS, Mike Martz in STL, Norv Turner in OAK, and **** Vermeil in KC. Many of these coaches are connected in the coaching tree, starting with Gillman or Coryell. Gibbs served on Coryell's staff in SD and brought the system to Washington. Turner served on Ernie Zampese's staff on the LA Rams and brought the system to Dallas. Martz served on Turner's staff in Washington.

    What are the personnel requirements for the Coryell offense
    The personnel requirements are significantly different between the Coryell O and WCO. In the Coryell O:

    QBs must be able to throw deep with accuracy. They are typically pocket passers with big arms. Examples of solid Coryell QBs are the Cowboys' HOFer Troy Aikman (6-4 220) and former Ram Kurt Warner (6-2 200)
    WRs must be able to stretch the field. The name of the game is speed and separation. By contrast, the WCO favors physical possession receivers, such as Jerry Rice. Examples of solid Coryell WRs are the Rams' Torry Holt (6-0 195) and the Raiders' Randy Moss (6-4 205)


    RBs carry a heavy load and tend to have good power. Norv Turner in particular has preferred to feed the ball to a feature back (Emmitt Smith in DAL, Terry Allen in WAS, Stephen Davis in WAS, LaDainian Tomlinson in SD, Ricky Williams in MIA). So the Raiders went out in FA and signed former Jet LaMont Jordan (5-10 230) to a big 5 year / $27.5 MM deal to be that workhorse RB. Examples of solid Coryell RBs are former Redskin John Riggins (6-2 230), former Cowboy Emmitt Smith (5-9 215), and the Chiefs' Priest Holmes (5-9 213)


    TEs tend to be strong blockers; they are relied upon heavily in pass protection and in paving the way for RBs in the ground game. In general, the WCO favors TEs with receiving over blocking skills (e.g. the Jets' Doug Jolley) whereas the Coryell O favors the reverse, although obviously a TE who can do both can fit into any system. This explains, in part, why 2004 rookie 7th rounder Courtney Anderson (6-6 270), with his size and ability to run-block, was able to leap-frog former 2nd rounders Doug Jolley (6-4 250) and Teyo Johnson on the Raiders depth chart


    OL tend to be big and physical compared to their WCO counterparts. Some WCO teams have gotten by with smaller OL (e.g. the Niners in the 1990s and the Broncos of recent years), because the linemen are able to block at angles and only need to maintain pass protection for a short period of time. Coryell OL are road graders in the running game, but they must also pass protect on drawn-out deep passing plays. Examples of solid Coryell OLs are the Cowboys' massive (at the time) championship OL in the 1990s and the Chiefs' OL in recent years


    Arguably the best Coryell offense ever was the Rams' "Greatest Show on Turf" team in 1999. They had an awesome set of wideouts (Bruce, Holt, Hakim, and Proehl), a strong OL, and Faulk and Warner in their prime.

    The Raiders have assembled the ingredients to run the Coryell system effectively: a strong-armed accurate deep thrower in Collins; 4 excellent deep threats with Moss, Porter, Curry, and Gabriel at WR; an explosive power back in Jordan; a power-blocking TE in Anderson; and a big, talented offensive line.

    What are the advantages of the Coryell offense
    Run correctly, it is simply an explosive offense, capable of big plays at any time. It puts opposing defenses in a bind: does the defense defend the deep ball, thereby weakening its run support, or does it defend the run, thereby leaving itself vulnerable to big plays downfield?

    There are some folks, including Al Davis, who feel that defenses have caught up with the WCO, esp with systems such as the Dungy Cover 2 defense. In Dungy's system, the WRs are bumped from their timing routes by press coverage by the CBs, the LBs are fast and have strong coverage ability, and the DL is quick and disruptive. These elements all counter strengths of the WCO.
     
  2. Silverphin

    Silverphin Chairman of the 'Owned! Awards' Commitee

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    Which means there is a chance that DC could adapt to this season.
     
  3. NJFINSFAN1

    NJFINSFAN1 FinHeaven Elite

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    Its more the Zampese system which is based on the Coryell system that Cam runs, along with Martz.

    Martz was quoted when interviewing for the job that he would rather have Gus F. run the offense for him.
     
  4. Slim

    Slim VIPeezy

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    GREAT READ!!!

    Judging by this CPEP could technically adapt to this offense. What scares me sh1tless is the amount of 5 - 7 step drops. Can you imagine Culpepper doing those last year???
     
  5. csabe

    csabe Pro Bowler

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    I like it, it should open up the whole field if we can actually have a deep passing threat for once. The running game will also thrive in this offense as it usually does becasue the safeties stay out of the box mostly.
     
  6. Ronnieisabeast

    Ronnieisabeast Starter

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    And it sounds like the perfect system for Ronnie too :) .
     
  7. mia4ever

    mia4ever Pro Bowler

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    Lets take this analyze a step further In our opinion Who Fixes this offense
    who Don't.


    8 Culpepper, Daunte QB 6-4 255 29 Central Florida - very strong arm
    but not very accuracy on medium routes
    17 Lemon, Cleo QB 6-2 215 26 Arkansas St. - unknown



    Top
    Running Backs
    No Name Pos Height Weight Age College
    23 Brown, Ronnie RB 6-1 232 24 Auburn -Ronnie brown is the one back who could preform well in any offense as long as he's not injured
    38 Cobbs, Patrick RB 5-9 205 23 North Texas -unknown




    Top
    Wide Receivers
    No Name Pos Height Weight Age College
    16 Vick, Marcus WR 6-0 216 22 Virginia Tech
    82 Hagan, Derek WR 6-2 203 21 Arizona State -(wait and see mode )but due to his 40 time derek is not the ideal WR in this offense
    84 Chambers, Chris WR 5-11 210 27 Wisconsin - Chambers in college was a long ball pass catcher /in the Pro Chris is more of a possession WR ,but Chris should do well ,bc the Offense is similar to what was ran 2 season ago
    86 Booker, Marty WR 6-0 210 29 Louisiana-Monroe -IMO Marty don't not fix / not much speed a little quickness when cross the middle of the field




    Top
    Tight Ends
    No Name Pos Height Weight Age College

    87 Peelle, Justin TE 6-4 255 27 Oregon -very good blocker





    Top
    Offensive Line
    No Name Pos Height Weight Age College
    66 Hadnot, Rex C 6-2 325 24 Houston -
    70 Shelton, L.J. T 6-6 345 30 Eastern Michigan -
    72 Carey, Vernon T 6-5 335 24 Miami -
    79 Alabi, Anthony T 6-5 315 25 Texas Christian -need to add wt.
     
  8. hof13

    hof13 A True Fan

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    Kind of sounds like the offense that Denny Green ran in Minnesota that DC already played in:

     
  9. Geforce

    Geforce FinHeaven VIP

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    How is Derek Hagan's 4.42 40 speed not a good fit for this offense?
     
  10. Tigers2003

    Tigers2003 FinHeaven VIP

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    If Culpepper is 100% healthy mentally and physically technically he would be the right fit with his ability to throw deep. Get a #1 receiver in tandem with CC and you got the basics. As far as power running getting Ricky back in tandem with RB and we have that too. No healthy CPep then get your man in the draft this year.

    Also I agree with the theory that defenses have caught up to WCO. So many teams are running the WCO that defenses have plenty of chances to develop ways to deflect its effectiveness. I don't see a lot of new rinkles in a system that pretty much has been exploited to its max. There are a lot of LBs who have good coverage skills in this league and CBs are learning how to be in the faces of receivers yet play within the new rules of enforcing the no push rule past five yars.
     
  11. Fin Fan in Cali

    Fin Fan in Cali Joanne Shaw Taylor Super Donator

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    Hagan needs to secure the ball first rather then dropping it. Chambers needs to really concentrate on his game, and make the plays that are right in front of him. Booker neeeds to stay healthy for a full season, so he can contribute to the team.
     
  12. Tigers2003

    Tigers2003 FinHeaven VIP

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    I am anxious to see how Hagan develops. IMHO he did not get enough opptys last year. Like to hear and read reports from camp and pay careful attention to the preseason games to check on his progress. I think he could fit in Cam's system.

    My sinking suspicion though is that we may have seen the best out of CC. I have posted many a times that hope the best for CC to succeed and he is still one my fav Fins. But, with his dropsitis and inconsistencies we may be forced if not this year by next to go after someone to fill the role of number 1 receiver instead of CC. I am pulling for him but I don't want to see a '06 version of CC again.
     
  13. Perfect72

    Perfect72 It's Only Happened ONCE!

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    Have the Dolphins Ran this System Before?

    I know Norv Turner tried to implement this system with the Dolphins beofore with mixed reviews in terms of success.

    Why did it not work when Norv was here? Personnel? Execution?

    What "Type" of offense did the Dolphins run in Marino's hayday?

    Was it a "Coryell" derivative?

    How much of the "Coryell" offense remained from Norv's tenure with the Dolphins?

    I remember that Saban kept saying that it was the "Dolphins" offense; and brought guys like Frerotte in to run it.

    Are the changes to the "New Dolphins Offense" under Cameron sweeping changes or subtle?

    Last year were the Dolphins trying to run the "Coryell" offense with incorrect personnel "Types" or just running it incorrectly?

    Obviously, there has been a great deal of roster "Tinkering" this offseason in terms of personnel. Were the changes due to "Bad Fit", "Bad Contract", or BOTH?

    I'm serious with these questions, so please post thoughtful replies.

    Thanks.
     
  14. NorFlaFin

    NorFlaFin PowerHungryMo'fo

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    Norv tried, but FeeFee didn't have the arm to go deep. Incidently A.J. Feeley had the arm. But Norv took the Oakland job and Wanny continued his man-crush on Fee-Fee.

    RW is a perfect back for Norv's system and Spielman draft picks on the Oline;McKinney, Whitley, Hadnot, etc were power maulers that fit the zone schema very well.

    Unfortunely Wanny and Tony Wise ruined it.
    Sucks indeed.
     
  15. Silverphin

    Silverphin Chairman of the 'Owned! Awards' Commitee

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    True. Damn True. :yes:
     
  16. Tureo

    Tureo Seasoned Veteran

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    I have to agree with you. I think RB can have a breakout year and RW can contribute as well. It all depends on how our QB and OL perform. I think our offense can be good next year.
     
  17. PHINFAN 4 LIFE

    PHINFAN 4 LIFE Delaware Phins Fan

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    That was a great read, thanks
     
  18. mattgilm

    mattgilm Island Dolphin

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    very nice post and very informative. Thanks for all. Go Dolphins.
     
  19. Jaj

    Jaj What you say?

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    Guys we've ran this offense before. It's nothing out of the ordinary and you'll see loads of play action followed by up the gut and off tackle runs.
     
  20. HybridPHIN 23

    HybridPHIN 23 the N E W Dolphilbins

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    oh yes my friend..... ronnie excels at running with power and picking his way through...... then throw in his rare recieving abilities and you have the weapon this system craves. I'm still dancing from the 05' draft ya know.... we rocked it.
     
  21. alphaman

    alphaman Scout Team

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    I'm not so sure. Here's the info someone posted about CPEP:

    8 Culpepper, Daunte QB 6-4 255 29 Central Florida - very strong arm
    but not very accuracy on medium routes

    A strong arm is important for this offense, but an accurate one is critical. The arm strength is not about throwing 40 to 50 yard bombs, it's about throwing 15 to 20 yard passes accurately. This offense asks quarterbacks to put the ball in tight windows on those intermediate throws where 6 to 12 inches means the difference between a first down and an interception.

    Trent Green has been the most prolific QB in this offense in the past 5 years. Trent does not have an overly strong arm on the deep throws (40+), but he is extremely accurate on the 15 to 20 yard throws. Mix that in to the playaction he did off of the running of Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson and you can see why he kept throwing for over 4000 yards with a great TE and mediocre WRs.

    What this article doesn't mention is how important it is and how difficult it is for the WRs to learn this offense. Green struggled his first year in KC because the WRs were a step slow in the offense. They didn't get to where they needed to be, where the ball was going to be. As Kennison got better at this, he began having 1000 yard seasons. Green helped him understand the nuances of the offense much, much better.

    Given the strength of the Dolphins defense, it may make sense to get Green to Miami for 2 years to make a run while also allowing him to groom the QBOTF in this offense.
     
  22. NorFlaFin

    NorFlaFin PowerHungryMo'fo

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    Somebody forgot to tell Jay Novacek he was suppose to suck in the Coryell offense.
     
  23. dlockz

    dlockz Hall Of Famer

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    Yea because 37 year old Qb's usually excel and 2 years from now Taylor and Thomas will be closer to retiring, not to mention that we have no clue who our Qb of the future will be.
     
  24. Mexican Dolphin

    Mexican Dolphin Scout Team

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    Really great read ¡¡¡

    And yes, i think Ronnie Brown is the perfect fit for that kind of offense, run with power and great hands.

    We only need a QB :rolleyes2
     
  25. yankeehillbilly

    yankeehillbilly FinHeaven VIP

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    My thoughts:

    The Coryell offense relies on power running and a legitimate deep ball threat. We had the power running, but never the deep ball while Norv was here. Our opponents concentrated on stopping our running game and we were never able to make them pay for it. Give the blame to Wanny for sticking with Jay Fiedler, who could barely throw a pass over 20 yds...much less throw one accurately.

    in Marino's heyday we certainly had the deep ball, but only an average running game and it could in no way be considered "power running". The line's primary duty was to keep Marino's jersey clean, not to be "road graders" for our running backs. By this, I would say that our offense was NOT a variation of the Coryell. It wasnt the WCO or Run and Shoot either though, so Im not sure what its origin was.

    Too early to see how extensive Camerons changes will be, but they appear to be more than subtle. Moves he has made so far fit into the overall Coryell doctrine - McMike was more of a pass catcher (or pass dropper) than a blocker. Welker, who is a fine possession/slot receiver but not really a deep threat was traded (though probably due more to what we were able to get for him). Welker's possible replacement, Az Zahir Hakim is a burner. Liwienski, while maybe not a true "road grader", is the type of guy you need for a power running game. Schlesinger is more of a lead blocking fullback than was was Morris or Barnes.

    Reason for Tinkering....I'd say Both.
     

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