Defensive Tackle is a Major Concern

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Austin Tatious, May 2, 2005.

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  1. Austin Tatious

    Austin Tatious Starter

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    Other than QB and Left tackle, the other position where we are extremely vulnerable is defensive tackle. For some reason, this board completely glosses over the dire straits the interior D line is in. Carter and Holliday are 3-4 ends, and not run stuffing tackles. They may be able to get some push inside in the pash rush, but we need to stop the run first and foremost. That's where it starts.

    I was disappointed to read that Chester is out of shape. If he shows up to camp overweight, just cut him. That is unacceptable if he cannot work hard and do his job by staying in shape.

    TBo is a longshot to stay healthy.

    Take all these pieces together, and we are going to have trouble stopping the run.
     
  2. Dubfire

    Dubfire Deep Dish Fan

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    Chester had surgery and it's understandable that he is overweigt now. If TBo is too, so be it. It's May. I will worry about this come August. I'm not counting on Bowens to stay healthy but the guy has come through time and time again. We have a lot of depth on the DL.

    Again, I too have the same concerns, but it's a little to early to really be worrying.
     
  3. NJFINSFAN1

    NJFINSFAN1 FinHeaven Elite

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    Carter has played well at DT the past two years. Chester is coming back from surgery and should be ready for traing camp.

    And you need to know how Saban's defense works! It's about pressure on the QB.
     
  4. thedayafter

    thedayafter Pro Bowler

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    IMO Saban has calculated this issue, I doubt he is counting on them... June 1 cuts may provide some relief as teams cut for salary cap....
     
  5. phinfan2003

    phinfan2003 Perennial All-Pro

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    I would say the FS spot is a bigger area of need than DT. With all of players that we have to play DT Timbo, Chester, Romero, Zgonina, Carter, and the rookies, we should be able to field a decent rotation. On the other hand, we can't say the same about our FS.
     
  6. Surferosa

    Surferosa Run to Daylight

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    I tend to agree here. The fact that Saban disnt target any big bodies in the draft or FA (except for Matt ***a, who wasnt even offered a contract) seems to insinuate that Saban likes his DT's faster and more aggressive. DT is a big concern because of age, but my guess is that Saban likes smaller quicker DT's (think Chad Lavalais) to be complemented by larger LB's and DE's.

    It seems like hes happy with "smaller" tackles such as Kevin Carter and Kevin Vickenson (who both go 305 - not exactly small but definitely lighter than Bowens/Chester).
     
  7. Austin Tatious

    Austin Tatious Starter

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    I would agree that free safety is an area of concern. I hope Yerehmiah Bell can finally live up to his considerable promise and Tavares Tillman finally has the light bulb go on for him. That said, in my opinion, defensive tackle is a more vital position than free safety.

    Certainly we have lots of question marks, which is not surprising for a team coming off a 4-12 season.

    Let's hope this is year one on our new timeline for greatness. We still need to go out and get a quarterback who can win in this League, a bona fide left tackle, a young buck defensive tackle, and a front line corner. Hopefully by Saban's third year, we can be there.
     
  8. phinfan2003

    phinfan2003 Perennial All-Pro

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    I guess what I was trying to say is that I feel more comfortable with the current state of our DT's than I do about the current state of our FS's. DT is obviously a bigger need in the NFL but our FS's need a lot of help IMO.
     
  9. KB21

    KB21 A True Fan

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    I don't see how Holliday and Carter are 3-4 ends, considering that neither have played in the 3-4.

    We also aren't going to be running a two gap defense this season, so having the big, blocker occupiers isn't as necessary as it was in the past. The main responsibility of the DT's this year will be to control the gaps.
     
  10. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips Ready for Henne.

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    I know its silly to think a 7th round pick to be much, but i fully believe that saban intends to use vickerson.
     
  11. SCall13

    SCall13 Finheaven QB

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    I was thinking the same thing. Neither has ever played in a 3-4 that I can recall. Our defensive tackles will be playing more attack than control under Saban.
     
  12. John Biello

    John Biello Perennial All-Pro

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    whatever happened to fields from mississippi i believe, has anyone signed him yet. ( sorry if im wrong, i tend to get him confused with the other wide body we talked about on these boards means ).
     
  13. thedayafter

    thedayafter Pro Bowler

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    Fields got drafted... SD maybe?
     
  14. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP

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    Ronald Fields was drafted... as for DT I think we will start Carter and Bowens while rotating them with Vickerson and Chester
     
  15. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Perennial All-Pro

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    Please at least have some marginal idea what you are talking about before you do it ok? Thanks. Cutting Chester because he is overweight could quite possibly be the stupidest move we could feasibly make at this point without trading Ronnie Brown for Reuben Droughns or something like that.

    Chester is injured in a way which prevents him from properly doing the kind of excercises that can allow him to be in proper shape. This is not a big deal. Many bigger players come into training camp out of shape, it is the nature of bigger players in todays NFL. It's not because Chester is lazy.

    Not only that, but what is the issue with Chester being overweight? You do understand that both Chester and Bowens were well overweight in 2002 and 2003, when they dominated the interior of every O-line they faced, correct? It was said that both of them were well over 350+ pounds.

    I wasnt aware that Tim Bowens fired his current doctor and hired you. Tell us, doctor, what did you find directly opposite of his old doctor that said he should be ok to play football this season?

    Maybe if we follow your plan about cutting Chester we will.
     
  16. Surferosa

    Surferosa Run to Daylight

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    Im no doctor, but Id be VERY surprised if Bowens played 16 games this year.
     
  17. KB21

    KB21 A True Fan

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    I do agree though that defensive tackle will be a high priority next year. It is very likely that this will be the last year of Larry Chester and Tim Bowens as Miami Dolphins.
     
  18. MelbournePhin

    MelbournePhin A True Fan

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    hate to chirp on the past, but we should have drafted the BPA in last years 1st round: Mr. Vince Wilfork
     
  19. dolfan4good

    dolfan4good Section 451 Row 10 Seats 14-15

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    I also feel that the DT position is a concern. Especially if Holliday does not play inside. I don't have much confidence in TimBo coming back healthy. Back problems don;t just go away... especially in really big men like he is.
     
  20. Todd347347

    Todd347347 Well-Known Member

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    I have had back issues myself and I have found nothing helps it except alot of work and excercise. The more I do the better I feel. What was the last season Tim Bowens even practiced?
     
  21. jaxdolfan

    jaxdolfan A True Fan

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    So who will be cut after june 1st that we can pick up? Any NFLE players? PS on other teams would be too late!

    Where is that capologist guy...the thrombocytosis one.
     
  22. MelbournePhin

    MelbournePhin A True Fan

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    well, if Timbo knew he could not come back, why wouldnt have he retired by now?
    he must still want to play, and i hope he does
     
  23. jaxdolfan

    jaxdolfan A True Fan

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    Not sure of his cap situation, he may be cut after June 1st without participating in any drills.
     
  24. Shamboubou

    Shamboubou THE REAL SOUL SHAKER!

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    I would like to see them give Bua a shot at FS. He may not be fast enough though, but if he was I would love to see some of the shots he is going to lay on a WR coming over the middle.

    With the DT, you have to figure that since we have all these DL we are going to be able to rotate them in and out. Not to mention the fact of look how much the D has been on the field the past couple of years. This year is we actually have an offensive system that doesnt consist of run, run, run, punt then maybe our D wont get so worn down.

    We have to look at this as a fresh start, we dont know what is going to happen with the other players, we dont know what type of systems we are going to run, we dont know how our players will play under a different system. This is a whole new start. Lets just watch and see what happens.
     
  25. BlueFin

    BlueFin Seer of Visions Finheaven VIP

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    I think the bottomline is you can't fix every problem in one off-season for a 4-12 team run into the ground by Wannstedt/Spielman.
     
  26. thedayafter

    thedayafter Pro Bowler

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    Saban... (On if any Dolphins players are not at their ideal weight) – “We have a couple of guys that have been injured and guys that are injured and inactive, especially if they are big guys, it’s more difficult for them to come back. We’re not disappointed in where they are, we just know that we have a plan that we have to implement to try to get them to where they need to be by when we get started. In some of those cases that may be difficult to do too, relative to their injuries. We just do the best we can to get them as ready as we can and go from there......

    "we have a plan....some cases that might be difficult to do"..... subtle pressure a Saban tactic...
     
  27. BLITZKRIEG

    BLITZKRIEG ~LACUNA LEGIONS~

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    Let's face the upcoming truth. DT Tim Bowens is no longer capable of holding down his DT position in my opinion. His back problems are worse, and he hasn't been himself in years. Time to move on without him....

    DT L. Chester is still very capable in my opinion. He had a bad start to the 2004 season, and never regained his form. He should be much better this year once he gets in shape. I have no worries with Chester as of yet....

    DT D. Romero always gets overlooked. He's been climbing up the depth chart every season, and this could be the year he emerges to the starting Dt position IMO. Maybe you think I'm reaching, well we'll see about that. I like Romero's hard work ethic, and it should pay off under Saban. At the very least, he should be retained as depth at DT....

    DE / DT K. Cater - He's old, but he's always healthy, and consistant. He's not the pass rusher he use to be, but he still plays hard, and his motivation will go a long way on the DL no matter where he lines up. He's a solid "situational replacement" for Bowens....

    DE / DT V. Holliday - I have no clue where he will fit in, but if Saban thinks he can use him somewhere, I trust him. Holliday use to be a very disruptive player, and was always around the ball. If he can get / stay healthy, we'll have ourselves a solid pass rusher IMO....

    DT J. Zgnonina - I'm not sure what Saban has in store for him. If we retain him, we know he's a decent depth player at DT. Not great, but certainly not poor....

    There is a minor concern at DT, but I think Saban has a good plan he's installing with the guys we've got on the DL. I'm looking forward to TC!!!....

    PHINZ RULE!!!!
     
  28. Philter25

    Philter25 MORE COWBELL!!!

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    Overall on the Dline:

    Timbo: You never fully recover from that type of back injury. I would expect him to TRY to come back and play a limited role.

    Chester: He should be able to come back.

    Carter: Should be a force at DT.

    Zgonina: Depth only. Hes old.

    Vickerson: Hes a rookie, depth only. I dont have high expectations for him this year.

    Romero: Backup DT. Very very solid backup.

    Right now IMO Chester and Carter should be our starting DT's with TimBo, Romero as backups and then Zgonina and Vickerson as third string guys.

    We DONT have a problem at DT, we just are not solid there. We have injuries at DT but with the addition of Carter, im not worried about the DT spot as much as im worried about the FS spot.

    We should really be concerned about FS. Bell is always hurt and behind him we have Tillman? You cant be happy with the FS situation.
     
  29. brech10

    brech10 Keyser Soze

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    saban could hardly upgrade the DL on draftday....There were a couple prizes like Travis Johnson & Shaun Cody but Johnson when mid first and Cody went early second, where we had no picks. I agree the interior D-Line could be better but not so much a concern as our O-Line
     
  30. Eshlemon

    Eshlemon FinHeaven VIP

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    Think Saban did the smart thing in going with TB & Chester this year because of the weak DT draft. Any DT taken earlier than Vickerson would have been a big reach. Would you have rather taken Babineaux instead of Roth, Piou or Ellison instead of Crowder, or Fields (#137) instead of Daniels? Or maybe pot head Hawthorne (#175) instead of Alabi? IMO Saban did a good job not reaching for those players.

    Not a lot of quality free agent DL available but Saban got good value with Carter & Holliday, who are better than Robinson & Williams.

    Saban's taking a risk with TB & Chester, but not an expensive one because both restructured contracts big time, saving 2 million+ on the cap.

    Add DE Roth and the DL is improved even w/o Chester or TB. The DL will be much improved if either/both can play.
     
  31. Philter25

    Philter25 MORE COWBELL!!!

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    I wouldnt have minded Hawthorne over Alabi.... I mean I smoked pot in college. Now I definately do not promote it, but I think the risk towards Hawthorne is well worth the potential in reward he can bring. They got a 1st rounder at pick #175 just cause he smoked pot. There are soooo many NFL players who smoke pot, and they all are not like Ricky Williams (who has a few more problems)..... so save that rebuttal.
     
  32. KB21

    KB21 A True Fan

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    Did you take plays off and basically be an underachiever in college? Hawthorne's lack of work ethic and questionable desire contributed as much to his drop in the draft as the marijuana did. I'm betting that he wasn't even on Saban's board due to his questionable desire, work ethic, and lack of an intensity level.
     
  33. Surferosa

    Surferosa Run to Daylight

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    I took classes off. I took some whole semesters off now that I think about it
    . :lol:
     
  34. Zeke0123

    Zeke0123 This is my worried look

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    I dont think he fit the saban mold..he was a little to fat and lazy for Nick.
     
  35. Philter25

    Philter25 MORE COWBELL!!!

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    Yes, I was a definate underachiever in college. :lol:

    Im sure the type of coach Saban is, Hawthorne wasnt even on the draft board. But when it comes to talent and potential, he was a steal at #175 IMO and I would have taken him over Alibi.

    He definately doesnt fit the Saban mold. Any other coach he would be a steal at #175.
     
  36. Eshlemon

    Eshlemon FinHeaven VIP

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    If he had smoked pot in college, wouldn't mind the risk even though he has underachieved as KB21 stated and doesn't appear to be a Saban type player as zeke0123 stated. But the idiot tested positive at the combine when he knew the test was coming. That and with Houck being so high on Alabi, made a him a risk not worth taking unless you're the Raiders.

    College players should learn a valuable lesson. Don't do pot, but it's OK to take steroids. You'll still be a 1rst round pick.
     
  37. Zeke0123

    Zeke0123 This is my worried look

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    ya and the raiders usually arent afraid to throw first rounders at pot-smoking DTs and it has worked out so well for them :shakeno: that guy had loser stamped on his forehead stop magazine drafting philter...I doubt we would have even given him a FA look the guys a clown.. caught at the combine no less.
     
  38. Lee2000

    Lee2000 FinHeaven VIP

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    Don't forget that a particular DT from USC may be in the supplemental draft

    USC DT Manuel Wright will take final exams next week, but is expected to apply for the NFL's supplemental draft because he probably will not be eligible for his junior season...."They said I could go in the second (round) or late first," Wright said: dailynews.com


    I pulled this from draftdaddy.com. I mentioned this on the board earlier. Jason Cole tells me that the supplemental draft is typcially in June or early July. I realize we would forfeit what pick we utilize if we were the winning bidder (eg., third round pick submitted in bid). This guy is huge, but I do not know much about him. Any of you that follow the west coast football scene please share your insight. Thanks,

    Lee2000
     
  39. Philter25

    Philter25 MORE COWBELL!!!

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    Magazine drafting? lol. Because we need a DT and I think hes a steal at #175.

    Dont get me wrong, I agree he doesnt fit the saban mold based on who he drafts. The original guy asked who would I rather have had at DT over any of the picks, and I would have taken a chance on Antaaj in the 6th round. His stock dropped greatly before the draft, but that doesnt change the fact that he was a monster at Wisconsin and he would have filled a hole we have at DT.

    Magazine drafting would be taking him in the 2nd because he fell a round, taking him in the 6th is called taking a risk on a player who has a ton of potential but hasnt lived up to it in a position which we are of need.
     
  40. T tes

    T tes Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully Vickerson can step up. T-bo is getting to old, but Chester has afew good years left, hes just overweight because of his injury. Did you see how fast he lost weight last year.
     
  41. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Perennial All-Pro

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    Coward? Oh, yes, posting something contrary to the internet tough guy certainly is cowardly.

    You appear to have completely missed the point. Neither of us know if Tim Bowens is going to be healthy, and claiming to know is foolish. Based on the information that we as fans have access to, he will be able to play in some capacity in 2005.

    You are aware that while recovering from an achilles tendon injury, his ability to do many cardiovascular excercises is diminished, no? Apparently not.

    It is by no means rare for bigger players to come into camp out of shape. You are aware that one of the main purposes of the part of the season is for players to GET into shape? Apparently not.

    If we cut players who came into camp out of shape, Tim Bowens would have been gone a long time ago, along with many other players who have contributed to this team.

    Status quo? You do realize that with Tim Bowens and Larry Chester together, we've allowed only 3 100 yard rushing performances in 32 games, right? You also do know that those two performances(vs. Bills twice, Colts once) the team spent the majority of the time in Nickel packages which dont involve Chester and Bowens, right?

    Last season we went with two Defensive tackles in much better physical shape then pretty much any Nose Tackle type defender in the league. Jeff Zgonina and Bryan Robinson dont have anywhere near the body fat of a Ted Washington, Tim Bowens, Keith Traylor, Casey Hampton, Sam Adams etc.

    But guess what? All of those fat guys are much better run defenders, and are in the same kind of physical shape as Chester and Bowens.

    You are pretty sadly out of touch with reality if you want to call Tim Bowens and Larry Chester weaklings.


    If you have time, I'd suggest you learn a little bit about football in between your lectures on super-advanced genius chemistry ok?
     
  42. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan A True Fan

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    I hope a decent DT falls to us in the 2nd next year cause I still have my heart set in the 1st on picking up one of the 4 hot prospects at tackle.

    Next years draft/FA should be interesting cause even right now we have priority needs at DT and LT not to mention FS and SS and that's before the season plays out.
     
  43. LAphinfan

    LAphinfan Captain

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    Amen! I don't even want to think about the 4th round pick we forked over in a panic move to move up one spot to draft an inferior player. Bellicheck and the Patsies played Spielman like a cheap guitar. Thank God we have a man in charge now who knows what he is doing. Get 'em Lou.
     
  44. Zeke0123

    Zeke0123 This is my worried look

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    I hear ya he has talent no doubt but it seems motor is high on the priority list with Nick. The kid was a low motor stoner..I personally am glad we didnt take him just mho.
     
  45. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Perennial All-Pro

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    Oh, yes, while on topic, here is Nick Saban's take on the whole thing...

    Maybe Nick Saban needs to study more of Markovnikov's principle, he clearly does not know his rectum from his elbow either.
     
  46. bright-light

    bright-light Starter

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    I would certainly agree and I hope that Saban looks to pick up a good run stuffing DT before the start of a the next season.
     
  47. Awsi Dooger

    Awsi Dooger A True Fan

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    On a different Dolphin forum I have relentlessly campaigned for upfield DTs for 3+ seasons. Anyone who thinks we received dominant DT play from Bowens and Chester in 2002 and 2003 is beyond bonkers. I save tapes from each season. That pairing provided a pass rush that was about as threatening as an avalanche of dimpled chads. The shortest putt I ever made was longer than Larry Chester's best pass rush from 2003.

    Maybe it's because I'm such a huge Canes fan and appreciated how superior our defenses became when you had an infield monster like Jerome Brown, Cortez Kennedy, Russell Maryland, Warren Sapp or Vince Wilfork. Guys like that immediately disrupt the intentions of the offense, shorten the play and therefore shorten the field. When you have belly bumping blobs in the middle, a natural pocket forms and the QB has no fear of anything smack in his face. He can survey and yawn. As someone whose job is in sports statistics, I can categorically state motionless DTs are particularly disadvantageous in road games. You get no interior push on the road and the rest of the defense eventually gives way. Just look at Tampa Bay's defense versus the pass in road games in 2002. A surreal 4.71 yards per pass attempt. Relentless pressure up the middle with Sapp, McFadden and Co. (after McFadden was injured). Meanwhile, our Dolphins surrendered more than 50% worse than that, beyond 7.4 yards per pass attempt in road games. It's hardly a coincidence we caved in late in critical road games at Minnesota and New England. Get a young gap-splitting beast in the middle and we're almost immune from that.
     
  48. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Perennial All-Pro

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    There is more to DT performance then pass rush, and to say Bowens and Chester were not dominant is kind of silly. They werent any threat as pass rushers against any teams other then the Bills, but as far as dominating run defenders, there arent a whole hell of alot of better performances then the ones they put up in '02 and '03.
     

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