Defensive Tackle

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Kingdom Come, Jul 12, 2017.

  1. Kingdom Come

    Kingdom Come Well-Known Member

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    Word is our rookies aren't viable rotational DT's at this time....Why haven't we signed Dan Williams????
    http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/barry-jackson/article147945589.html

    Godchaux might get poached on the PS because of his sack total last year but Taylor would most likely be safe on the PS.

    If Lawrence Okoye continues to impress through camp so be it, but it appears to me that right now the Dolphins should not be satisfied, but rather terrified of what could happen to the Interior DL if their is an injury to Suh....God forbid.

    Williams has to be open to a one year prove it deal at this point. Just give him 4 mil and it may keep us from another debacle in the run stopping area of our defense.

    Even if he has ballooned up to 360, he can loose the weight and may return to what he was in 2012 and 2015, which was good enough to be called a good NFL starter.

    I wouldn't even think of giving him a long term deal with guaranteed money, but I would go as high as two years 8 million with 5 mil guaranteed.

    He is a former 1st round pick who has had some very good success in the league.

    IMO, Dolphins are desperate at this point and our decision makers are making the age old epic mistake of being presumptuous.
     
  2. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Well-Known Member

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    Dollars to doughnuts they pick one up at cut day. Hayes can kick inside and pick up some slack, but yeah, they're playing with fire. Luckily, we just need a space eater that's good against the run. He doesn't even have to be a space eater. It would be cool to have Odrick back.
     
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  3. claytonduper

    claytonduper Starter

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    Hopefully these rookies are learning the playbook and working on technique. They will have had 1 month since OTA's to get stronger. It is too early to dismiss their contribution this year. Let's get out of the preseason and see how they perform in game situations when the pads come on and the hitting starts. If their role is to stuff the run it shouldn't be the hardest position to learn.
     
  4. Eesti

    Eesti Rookie

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    Vincent Taylor had more sacks than Godchaux last year. The problem is the FO isn't looking for space eaters. They are stuck on this idea of having two up-field "penetrators". Dan Williams has 3.5 career sacks and got benched last year for showing up out of shape. I would not be too inclined to bring in someone tagged as lazy. SenDerrick Marks had as many sacks last year as a reserve than Williams did in his entire career.

    Miami probably should have signed Chris Baker. We will see him in action week 1 along side Gerald McCoy. They are "all-in" with Jordan Phillips. That may be ok if he could play 900 snaps like Suh but that is not going to happen.
     
  5. Snoop

    Snoop A True Fan

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    That's like going all in pre flop with pocket 5s.
     
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  6. Snoop

    Snoop A True Fan

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    Offer a 2nd for Danny Shelton, the Browns new front office is obsessed with picks.
     
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  7. BobDole

    BobDole Suck it Trebek

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    There will be another addition or 2 there once they're satisfied the rooks aren't up to the task. I like Taylor but have zero faith in Godchaux. Might be a season or 2 - if ever - before those guys are ready. There will be cuts and we'll sign someone cheap. Not real worried unless nothing is done.
     
  8. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    Hoping for an opportunistic defense more than anything else carried by the offense and teams chasing the scoreboard.

    A defense like the one the colts and the saints won championships with. Nothing shut down about them just opportunistic and had finisher edge pass rushers.

    Sub package finishers
     
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  9. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    We are destined to play a ton of zone at the lb level which means good qbs are gonna pick us apart in the middle of the field unless our sub edge guys can finish on the qb.

    Best way to do it is to get leads you can sit in cover 2 and 2 deep and your edges can pin their ears on arriving at the qb launch points based on the down and distance.

    Harris and wake being the finishers.
     
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  10. Wishfishin

    Wishfishin Waterboy

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    That's just a great analogy.
     
  11. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    Pass
     
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  12. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    They were both aggressive blitz-wise and thrived on takeaways. We can produce the latter w/ the right mindset and hustle, but the former isn't our schtick.
     
  13. Kingdom Come

    Kingdom Come Well-Known Member

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    Lawrence Okoye and mid-round rookie project players....how can anyone not see this is just a disaster waiting to happen; and even that is assuming Jordan Phillips is ready to start and play most of the snaps

    This is worse than expecting Ted Larson to be all of sudden decent because he has a new uniform.

    I hate this mindless FO. The only thing they are professionals at, is negligence!

    Too much blind faith in these New York con men. There should be an uprising of Dolphin fans against these kind of egregious omissions by the FO.

    This bunch is in dereliction of their duties. They should be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail.
     
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  14. Snoop

    Snoop A True Fan

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    Yea I mean they couldn't have used some of Kiko's money to up the offer to Poe? Maybe then our 15 hour meeting with the guy wouldn't have been a complete waste of time.
     
  15. Snoop

    Snoop A True Fan

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    Shelton is on the verge of becoming one of the most dominant defensive lineman in the league.
     
  16. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    That's bold. He made some strides since his rookie year, but there's still a lot for him to work on. Consistency is one of them. He can be disruptive, but needs to play with better balance and finish.
     
  17. Eesti

    Eesti Rookie

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    You guys have scouted 745 Danny Shelton's snap counts? That's amazing. Where do you get the time to do that and also evaluate every Miami Dolphin snap? :)
     
  18. Travis34

    Travis34 chea Finheaven VIP Donator

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    No doubt we need a veteran. I hope Phillips can take the next step, but we need some experience there too
     
  19. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    Miscast in our scheme
     
  20. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I get that you'e being facetious but I watch a **** ton of football. :thumbsup
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
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  21. Albert Romano

    Albert Romano Super Donator Super Donator Finheaven VIP

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    Would love to be going into a new football year expecting something different ... but nope. If this defense struggles again badly Gase and the FO could get into some friction over scheme vs. personnel.
     
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  22. DefensiveEnd76

    DefensiveEnd76 Football Guru

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    We'd rather have crap for depth apparently. We make no effort to go after some decent d-linemen who could probably unseat Phillips as the starter for God sake. Grier needs to wake up.
     
  23. finmann

    finmann Pro Bowler

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    No one has been harder on Phillips than me, unfortunately I think this coaching staff believes that we are pretty set at DT for this upcoming season, believing or hoping that he will an improve player. I just don't see us upgrading that position this year barring a total collapse of course.
     
  24. Austin Tatious

    Austin Tatious Starter

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    The informed fan base (here, at least) is on record that we need another reliable interior offensive lineman and defensive tackle. The FO didn't complete these tasks even though neither issue is that costly in the short or long terms, and reinforcements are available.

    We will see and hope the FO is right. However, we may be right and they may be wrong. IMO, when that happens, it's a **** storm. You can never let the fans be smarter than you. That's happened too often with this franchise. There have been so many better moves discussed on this forum in advance over the past decade and a half, it's not even funny.

    What happens if Phillips or Suh gets hurt? Football is....um...a contact sport. What if Phillips doesn't improve enough? What happens if Pouncey goes down? Larsen at Lg, Bushrod at rG, and Urbick at C? You winning big with that group? Or are you playing a fifth round guard right out of the gate? Is it good enough, today, now?

    As for the scheme where you want two disruptive, up field rushers stopping the run instead of having one space eater, same thing. You don't stop the run, and this place goes berserk.

    The problem with the fans being unhappy is you don't want to underestimate that. It starts with informed fans knowing in advance what should have been done, and when it blows up, the informed fans start the dominoes of complaining and the next thing you know, there are planes flying overhead saying "Fire Tannenbaum" and the dysfunction of the organization overwhelms everything. Been there, done that.

    Get D tackle who can hold his ground, hold space and play the run. Work guys out and see who's in shape. If you're insistent on up field rushers, well I don't agree but then look into another of that type.

    And re-sign 14 before the season starts while we are listing action items. We don't want another Vernon situation on our hands.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  25. Snoop

    Snoop A True Fan

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    So is Timmons but we still guaranteed his entire contract.
     
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  26. Albert Romano

    Albert Romano Super Donator Super Donator Finheaven VIP

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    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
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  27. Snoop

    Snoop A True Fan

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    I guess we'll just have to wait until next offseason to address the position, this draft was pretty weak at DT so it's a good bet next year's will offer more talent, I'm already salivating watching a guy like Vita Vea from Washington. I doubt we'll be willing to pay big money next year in FA for a Star Lotulelei, or even a Poe or Bennie Logan, which is why it's disappointing that we couldn't land one of them on a 1 year deal.
     
  28. SCLSU Mud Dogs

    SCLSU Mud Dogs foos-ball is the devil! Donator

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    We should probably wait for that one guy with a $100M contract to finish that before investing so heavily in the position (again)
     
  29. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I like Taylor and let's see if Phillips can turn it on. This season is banking on guys like Phillips and Parker turning it on
     
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  30. VBCheeseGrater

    VBCheeseGrater Not Quite A Shredder Finheaven VIP

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    Was curious about that myself, that could definitely come in handy.
     
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  31. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Some people think we don't use DEs inside very often and that may be correct but I definitely saw Jason Jones inside last season and even saw Suh at DE. The DL has versatility which could keep teams guessing
     
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  32. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Up field rusher is essentially how the term "aggressive" is defined in our scheme. The gym shorts (read: Jim Schwartz) model of defense, which Burke has been under virtually his entire coaching career, is predicated on DL penetration, not blitzing. Schwartz's defenses typically have the lowest percentage of blitzes in the NFL. The system historically holds firmly around 15%.

    Simply adding a stout run defender(s) in our scheme does not change the one gap concept. They are still only occupying a single gap. This concept is not the same as a DL being double teamed. Zone blocking will always double at least one DL and most likely two at the POA. A DL being double teamed or taking on two blockers is not the same concept as a 2 gap technique or controlling 2 gaps. That in itself will never be apart of our scheme and it cannot be accomplished with a tweak to the scheme. Utilizing 2 gap tech DL requires a significant change in scheme, flow, and terminology and it's not something one will find in our 4-3 Over front.
     
  33. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    You're correct. In our pass rush sub packages, and when time permitted, we would slide our base DE inside and sub a specialized pass rusher on the edge. At times, although rare, like you mentioned we would try to exploit matches in obvious pass rush situations by aligning our DL in advantageous spots.
     
  34. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Is that some of the versatility you are calling for? I know mostly you are talking about back 7 blitzes which I think statistically we may only Do about 15 percent of the time. Do you have any statistics on that? I was just guessing with my 15% number.
     
  35. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    No, that's been a typical maneuver of the pass rush sub packages like that of the nickel or dime that have been used by all teams/ defenses for decades.

    I'm more in favor of front 7 versatility like that of the 3-4 or 4-3 Under where you have OLB's that are proficient in both coverage and pass rush so the defense can disguise their intentions, instead of using predominately off the ball LBs like we have. And also a scheme that can utilize 2 gap tech DL's to allow more free flow to the ball for the LB unit.

    I have only charted half the games so far for last season but we hovered around 17-18% as I havent totaled the final numbers yet. The most so far being NE wk2 (28%), 2nd most Cincinnatti wk 4 (22%) and the least being Arizona (11%).
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  36. Eesti

    Eesti Rookie

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    So they are obviously looking for help before camp starts. What I don't get is there is another guy from the same team, NOT coming off a torn Achilles, who is an up-field penetrator who had 3.5 sacks last year as a reserve. Both came into the league in 2009 and both turned 30 this year. Marks has 19 career sacks, Miller has 8. Go figure.

    - Bucsnation

    bigcatcountry

    Miller had 4 sacks two years ago. Marks had 8.5, three years ago.
     
  37. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Well-Known Member

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    In one of his early pressers he said not only can he kick inside, he also said very sternly that he cannot be moved backward. He's very confident in his ability to anchor. So yeah, count me as intrigued also...
     
  38. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    I think Roy miller fits the scheme and unless I'm mistaken he's been a strong run defender. Although I would imagine that workout was more about seeing where he is in his achilles rehab than anything else.
     
  39. phinfan33

    phinfan33 A True Fan

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    For those who know these things...why haven't we brought Odrick back for at least a look see? Is he a scheme fit for what we're running?
     
  40. dolphinlifer

    dolphinlifer Banned Hammered

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    Why is everybody so down on the two dts drafted. First most were so high on them in the draft, " i can't believe we got them both in the 5th and 6th, wow such an amazing draft." Now either coaches or media are down on them and you guys just follow suit like sheep, "I can't believe we relied on these guys for our dts", what a joke, form your own opinion, imagine that, wowww. It is also very annoying as mentioned above when coaches call things aggressive which really couldn't be any closer to as passive as can be, if the 15% blitz thing is true, that's just sad, I understand this defense has worked before but it seems so reliant on a few players bailing playing not to lose coaches out.

    Sure hope gase's idea of "aggressive", like he said they were gonna be is a lot more downfield then we saw last year, he was very Philbin like early on. Not saying he is Philbin or Sparano, but they both said they were aggressive and were total jokes. He got better as the year went on but don't be surprised if we go sub .500 or 9-7 due to ultra safe coaching, most of these so called "aggressive" coaches only do so when they can't play ultra safe anymore and losing will cost them their jobs, I doubt if gase continued that 1-5 trend last year he would have still been here. You guys get way too ahead of yourselves, any coach that comes in here gets one winning season and all of a sudden he's shula 2.0, judge it year by year and pay attention to the good and the bad.

    Gase has done a good job overall but the FO has definitely been terrible for a while, idk why anybody is surprised by them not fixing obvious holes that make us lose a lot of games, sometimes i think they only want the team to gradually improve each year in baby steps just so they can keep their jobs, but then again a lot of people are really stupid and tannenbaum is def that. This draft wasn't near as good as you guys thought it was, but "OMG A++++" lol, it was a decent draft but only because that draft was loaded, if it was a normal draft class, it would have been a terrible draft, we would have much less quality players than we got out of it, the quality we got was only because of the draft depth, not because it was a good job by our terrible FO, gase not included but I don't think he's the best at drafting players.
     

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