hoops scoops...day 3...an odd finish...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by hoops, Apr 27, 2013.

  1. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    before i get into todays results i'll just give you something else to chew on regarding the will davis cb pick after i did a recheck of everything i had on him this morning...

    this is no lie...there was only one rep in the senior bowl week 3 days of practice that he was solid on...and that rep was against a wr in aaron mellette who's as raw as they come and last i checked still hasn't heard his name called...in 11 on 11 single high safety though practice mellette beat him for a deep vertical he trailed on by 2 yards...on thursday they brought in the wr lemon from syracuse who's another guy that's name i'm yet to hear drafted and he ate up will davis also...in the senior bowl game the play he did make was a result of jordan poyer driving on a route and getting the receiver to tip the ball right into davis hands for the int...i'm sorry fellas but the kid did nothing...he's not strong he doesn't have the strength in his hands to really jam and reroute a guy and he trails on the route on the regular...gets caught flat footed...184 lbs...

    anyways now that we're done with that action let's talk about today...

    first off i had no idea that this team was so loaded that we could use high 4th round picks given our needs on special teams core players and competition at will backer for our freshly minted $26 mil man philip wheeler...cause that's how jelani jenkins projects to me...competition and most likely depth with high end specials abilities...this kid does have talent and he runs to the football...like wheeler though he's a guy that needs to be clean doesn't get off blocks well or sift through traffic and not very strong at the poa despite the 27 reps of 225 lbs ...i don't know...i don't hate it but it seems to me like the kind of move teams with not many needs make...i'm sure he'll beat out spitler for his roster spot given he's more sudden...right now the only real strength at the poa this lb core has is misi but i think we may see with dion jordan in fold olivier vernon making the switch to solb as well...seems like a logical move to me

    dion sims i kinda saw coming or at least a in line capable of handling himself te...i think the value there was solid given the need and the fact miami had no one at the position that could play in line and not be a liability...that said he's not the blocker fasano was at this stage he dropped about 15 lbs to run fast from his playing weight and still ran a 4.75 40 i would think he's probably gonna end up putting some of that weight back on...i hope he doesn't cause it would help his suddenness and ability to get down the field but while he has soft hands i think he's your primary in line te and guy that works the underneath and intermediate...not as polished as fasano...i'm just damn glad they didn't take nick kasa for the role...who can't block a paper bag...but at least they realized dustin keller in line was never gonna work...

    mike gillislee i like the pick given where we got him...plays a little bigger than he is he's solid in all facets doesn't wow you with anything...

    the kicker yeah the day i talk about a kicker is the day i want to be shot in the head...whatever...i guess ireland saw the run on kickers coming...ha ha

    i think my biggest issue though is we did jack squat to get more weapons in the passing game in this draft...nothing...added no threat down the seam or on the outside playmakers...we lost our slot and didn't replace it...i don't agree with any wallace, hartline, gibson, and mathews and we're good when it comes to playmaking at the position nonsense...i'm plum shocked that i guess they took the true slot out of the offense and took that away from tannehill...why take away one of the kids strengths??? they didn't add any te that teams must scheme for in both facets with the ability to line up in line and be flexed out wide to take advantage of mismatches...

    and i still can't find the answer at tackle anywhere...what's the plan to protect tannehill??? smoke and mirrors???
     
    tylerdolphin likes this.
  2. fininpsl

    fininpsl A True Fan

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    They'll answer tackle with one of the FA on the market. Or a trade. They've opened up even more cap space. Enough that they have plans for it this year rather than rolling it over.
     
  3. HarryBagpipe

    HarryBagpipe Archibald Meatpants Super Donator Donator

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    Agree on the lack of offensive weapons we are going into next season with. After Wallace we are average at best. We should be giving our young qb as many legitimate targets as possible.
     
  4. phintim

    phintim Seasoned Veteran

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    Hoops this Davis kid was rated fairly high from what I call the pre draft guides but the CBS and GBN guides had him much lower. Which leads me to ask you have you had a chance to see any of his game tapes or for that fact do we have any fans who watched this kid much in college?
     
  5. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    i saw 3 games...was not impressed...didn't go back for another look after the senior bowl cause after it i took him off my board...was not interested...frankly senior bowl backed up what i saw in the games so i felt i had a good grasp on him...
     
  6. fanfin

    fanfin A True Fan

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    Brandon Lloyd, Eric Winston or Clabo
     
  7. FearTheBeard

    FearTheBeard FearTheBurke

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    Could have used more weapons, my only gripe aside from the Davis pick. Thought we did a solid job, gotta add a FA tackle, which is the right route anyway when it's all said and done. Wheeler has experience at SLB so I could see him getting shifted there in 2014 and having Jenkins play on the weakside if he shows any promise. Good coverage guy, exactly what we needed to add to our core, that's why I like the pick. I could see a lot of 3-4 looks with the personnel we're bringing in, Wake and Jordan are plenty capable on the outside, with Ellerbe and Wheeler on the inside. I'd go as far as saying our personnel might be even better suited for a 3-4...
     
  8. COMEBACKRICKY

    COMEBACKRICKY Superbowl MVP

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    Will Davis was an absolutely atrocious pick.

    Maybe the FO figured they didnt want to help Tannehill out so he can get used to throwing to WR's that can't get separation. That way it forces him to be more accurate. Weird, I know, but that's the only explanation I can come up with. Or the FO is seriously delusional if they think our WR group does not need improving.
     
  9. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    the one thing i will say also is in taking a good look at will davis work i also decided to eye ball some more jamar taylor and he looked very comfortable as i had stated prior in off coverages...the only thing i didn't see was despite the terrific speed i didn't see great closing speed...i don't see run you down in the open field from behind here...not a great 2nd gear burst with the ball in the air...if guys had him by 2 yards on a route it kinda stayed that way...that's a little different from a vontae davis who could close and run you down...terrific quick acceleration
     
  10. phintim

    phintim Seasoned Veteran

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    My honest opinion on grading this draft is we as usual drafted for needs that were obvious and I came away filling like that the picks were a bit of a crapshoot. I am just so darned tired of rebuilding I sure hope Philbin works out because many of these picks are just fill in picks that we drafted years ago already because we have a coach who wants different players. When or if we change out coaches again I sure hope we hire one who can work with the current players while infusing talent. We have churned the team way to much for my tastes this year to expect much this year. Kinda feels like a expansion team. I have said this before but if I were a GM I would do what the Pats did in the first round trade back when a good offer comes along and get as many picks as possible. Really the draft is a bit of a numbers game on top of evaluating talent just get about 12 picks every year and expect about 6-7 to stick and eventually you have a decent team. Best GM for the Phins in my lifetime Jimmy Johnson and that was his style and we got pro bowlers in every round. So much for my rant.
     
  11. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    i agree with a lot of that...jenkins is a great coverage lb...no doubt...but i don't see given our current lb core where it would be better suited for a 34...most these guys need to be clean to the ball...not great strength in the hands to shed...misi and vernon if they move him the exceptions

    i don't at all like the idea of wheeler at solb...not enough lead in the pants not stout enough...don't like that at all
     
  12. MiamiDolphin618

    MiamiDolphin618 A True Fan

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    Still holding out some hope for Marquess Wilson...although its a pipe dream considering his off the field stuff. This FO must be pretty confident in Matthews...they better hope they are right.
     
  13. Austin Tatious

    Austin Tatious Starter

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    Good stuff Hoops. Your research on Davis is helpful. Ireland admits Davis is a developmental guy. I think they are looking at his cone time, quickness, and natural hips and think they can develop his on-field play. I don't think there is any disputing that he's not there yet. What you are seeing at senior bowl I am sure is dead on and consistent with what Ireland pretty much admits. In view of Ireland's admissions, trading up in the 3rd for him looks like a major reach. I have to say that it looks like Ireland panicked. I would have loved to have seen them keep the three 4's and 5's and play the odds with more guys.

    Jenkins--I've wanted them to develop good depth at LB for awhile. Sure, we've got the three starters, but we needed some young legs with burst for depth. We sure haven't had that in several years. I really wanted Khaseem Greene but I can get behind Jenkins especially his intangibles.

    Sims--I've been warming up to him the past month. I saw him play a few times and he always looked a bit stiff to me. His speed is allegedly comparable to the likes of Gronk. I sure don't see that on the field. But with Keller, you can bet Philbin needed a bigger TE as a complement. I think this kid will end up being a good pick and a Dolphin for several years. But I don't see him being a major seam buster.

    Gillslee--I thought we needed a back there. I'd like to check whether he has a fumbling or durability problem. Anyone know? Those are Thomas's problems. I like the Gillislee pick overall.

    Sturgis--I had a feeling we were going to take him. I had him on my pick 20 list.

    I am amazed we didn't go get get a stretch the field threat in the slot, or a 6'4 receiver for the red zone. Maybe they will look at Marquess Wilson. They sure did their homework on him.

    Overall, I am in the camp that the 3rd round was a major disaster, but the rest of the draft looks really good to my eyes. No safety yet, no tackle, nobody to stretch the seams at TE or slot receiver. Still some pretty big holes, but we are getting alot closer to where we want to be.
     
  14. Awsi Dooger

    Awsi Dooger A True Fan

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    No, Taylor doesn't have a burst. That's why I posted that while I like the pick I seriously doubt he can become a great player. I would have preferred to package and trade up. Granted, you need a partner.

    I bet plenty of Boise State games. Often the first half, when every play is critical. Taylor has very good instincts but often when I needed an interception he couldn't close to get it. As you indicated, the gap stays the same. Even on his signature play against Osweiler in the Las Vegas Bowl, Taylor stumbled and the ball was more or less thrown to him, enabling the 100+ yard return.
     
  15. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    well i think jordan and taylor are the two guys we took maybe an outside shot at dallas thomas at guard of a all pro...but probably just jordan if he reaches his potential...i did see a sick looking spin move in his arsenal that had me pretty damn excited...so there's a little more than just the outside speed rush...still needs a lot of work though...definitely though as talented an edge rush prospect as we've had upside wise...

    more likely though taylor is a solid positional corner and plays assignments well...i don't see special but you never know...
     
  16. finomenal

    finomenal A True Fan

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    No wide receivers drafted at all. I don't get it:

    http://www.thephinsider.com/2013/3/16/4112222/dolphins-free-agent-signings-insider-look-at-brandon-gibson

     
  17. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    ok so you see it the same way also...i think that's the one thing that he lacks that will keep him from being special...quick acceleration and the ability to close...

    that quick acceleration and ability to close was terrific with vontae davis and yeremiah bell in his prime...same for reshad jones now...makes a big difference to me
     
  18. fanfin

    fanfin A True Fan

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    walking on at UF next spring have a buddy who plays there got the inside scoop.... thinks Jenkins, Gillislee, Sturgis all great picks... thinks Jelani is a starter just not yet, Gillislee can do it all, Sturgis is CA$$$H MONEY
     
  19. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    now that would really be a great pick up...but it appears that kid must be off just about everyones draftable board after quitting the team...top 50 talent in camp sure would be nice...if he kept his nose clean he'd make this roster easy
     
  20. Phins117

    Phins117 A True Fan

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    Still do not understand why we failed to add weapons for tanehill aside the rb from Florida. But still as we speak a couple receivers are still out there including DARICK Rogers.
     
  21. cltchperf

    cltchperf Pro Bowler

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    wallace can get separation, and hartline will get seperation more with teams focusing on not letting wallace beat them deep and leaving the inside open for hartline. He's a good no.2, he wouldn't have had 1000 yards wr last year with no help from other Wrs and a rookie qb throwing to him. he's not a no1, but with wallace getting attention, hartline will look only better
     
  22. Digital

    Digital Starter

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    I agree for the most part. Seriously bummed and mystified about how Ireland hung Tannehill out to dry. Every other GM in the NFL tried to surround their young QB with weapons ... we drafted defense in a big way.

    I also like Gillislee ... but he's not a star or weapon, he's a solid role player, 3rd down back and depth. IMHO, that's the only offensive addition we made though, and it was too little too late.

    I do not rate Sims highly at all, he's a blocking TE. He doesn't create much separation, he runs flat-footed and gets no verticality in the red zone despite his size, and simply isn't a great move-the-chains TE or red zone TE or seam threat TE. Looks like a All-Madden pick though with height and 40 speed masking the fact that the guy isn't much of a receiver at TE. As a blocker, he's subpar, but that's his role and all he'll really contribute. Wasted pick IMHO, probably designed to lower the pennies on the Salary Cap and appease people like me who have been clamoring for a good TE. Newsflash ... it didnt' work.

    Dallas Thomas ... really? So we lose one of the better LT's in the league and want to replace him with a G that lacks quickness? Don't see that working out. My guess is that Lance Louis in free agency and Dallas Thomas now are designed to replace our guards Jerry (poor) and Incongnito (too expensive). My problem with it that Thomas doesn't look like someone that can do that. Had we drafted Brian Winters, even higher, I'd have been on board. Had we selected the small school LT prospect Terron Armstead who went a few picks earlier, I'd have been on board with that as well. But this was a bad pick.

    My biggest problem with the Will Davis pick was that we already had Grimes and already drafted Taylor, and used two picks to get the pass rusher Jordan, so was a 3rd CB really worth packaging more picks together to trade up for? We made a clear statement that Tannehill was getting nothing. It really seems that Ireland is incapable of building an offense.

    Hey, if our offense was strong and a cohesive veteran unit I'd be fine. If our defense was horrible, I'd be fine. If this was a guy that was sorely needed and immediately filled a huge hole on our starting team, I'd understand that as well. But to package picks to reach for a CB that doesn't look very impressive today and only projects at best to being a 3rd CB and probably will not start ... that just screams of hiding the bodies you need to get rid of because you way overpaid for Richard Marshall and Dmitri Patterson last year. Ireland is constantly drafting then cutting then drafting to fill the cut. That kind of treading water approach makes it hard to ever get a critical mass of talent.

    Ignoring the offense for a second year in a row when you FINALLY have a young franchise QB isn't wise. I can't think of many good QB's over the last 20 years that became very good but whose team failed to build around them the first two years.
     
  23. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    i saw an interview rogers did and he was asked what's the first thing you are gonna do once your name is called in the draft??? his answer was something a long the lines of "find a tv camera for me to pimp it in"...

    right then i knew that would never happen in miami...add in all the off field red flags and this kids pretty much untouchable
     
  24. finomenal

    finomenal A True Fan

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    He just went to the Bears.
     
  25. cltchperf

    cltchperf Pro Bowler

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    i thought one of his strengths that i read from scouts and reports here was that he had good recovery speed. Just because it doesn't seem that way to you doesn't mean its true. Not saying the scouts are right and your wrong, but when reports say recovery speed is good and you say no, then it seems a matter of the viewers perspective thant truth. Whereas, you see say lack of recovery speed and scouts do too for a player, then more than likely that player is lacking in that dept. i gotta look back on his scouting report posted here and elsewhere to make sure.
     
  26. hammond47

    hammond47 Well-Known Member

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    Gotta agree with the sentiment here. To have all of these picks and walk away with what we walked away with, it makes me sick. Our receiving core is not particularly good, not sure why we traded Bess. I guess back to free agency to search for a TON of acorns.
     
  27. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    all well said but you had to know that they couldn't ignore the in line blocking te given what they had in house at the position in day 3...so yeah there's a bit of a must have so i'm taking this guy now thing there...don't watch sims tape...he's painfully slow on it...but he also looks like he's about 280 on it...no burst whatsoever...i think it would be good for us if he reported to camp at 260...but you're still not gonna get much of a seam guy either way...

    i hear ya on the o...at pick #56 i was jumping up and down to get keenan allen in the 4th i was like god dang get quinton patton...do something dammit...it was useless...

    ---------- Post added at 06:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 PM ----------

    figures...only thing that will keep that kid from being a damn good pro is himself...poor mans aj green
     
  28. cltchperf

    cltchperf Pro Bowler

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    fins are probably gonna trade for a tackle and gislee is gonna be a starter. He doesn';t have to be great. If hes good, hell be great with miller. many teams have backs splitting carries theses days, very few workhorse rbs as it wears rbs down and shortens their career. and yes he's a weapon, they said hes a good catcher and receiving runninback and no it's not just a 3rd down back. i think hell be the main back and win out. Don't you get it, a lot of these back always don't have some wow factor to them, but they have vision and quickness which is underrated to speed and they are good backs. There have been quite a bit of backs that didn't wow with speed or other measurables, who fall down in draft and became good runninbacks. this guy will be legit and help miamis ground game. i understand the davis pick and dallas one..but holy nitpicker..jesus
     
  29. fanfin

    fanfin A True Fan

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    My biggest problem was they traded up for Will Davis but wouldn't jump SD to take Keenan Allen..... Mark it down FH will be bitching about that for years
     
  30. SR 7

    SR 7 A True Fan

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    I told u guys we won't draft a WR. Where is my free VIP membership! I had bets on this site regarding this.
    Davis to me is the worst tackling DB in the draft almost and after 15 yard route he's 90% guaranteeing u that he will be grtting toast by about 2-5 yards. And usually he gets a PI when this happens. Completely hate the pick. Only thin I like about him is when he is tight on coverage he tends to get his hands on the ball or deflect the ball. Outside of that he gets burned deep more than Smoth did all 4 yeara.
     
  31. Phins117

    Phins117 A True Fan

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    Lololol well...there goes that.
     
  32. fanfin

    fanfin A True Fan

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    and rightfully so I'm still pissed
     
  33. FearTheBeard

    FearTheBeard FearTheBurke

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    Ya I agree that I don't really like Wheeler playing SLB, just has some experience there so could have crossed the FO's mind when they made that selection. I just like having the additional options on passing downs that this draft has given us, our packages on passing downs I think are going to be the most improved part of our team.
     
  34. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    ahhh...yeah that was it it was when we got in the 70's and within striking distance that i was like god dang move up right now and get keenan allen...they said his knee wasn't responding to treatment all that well yet but we all know that kid will be 100 percent come camp and probably look like the best wr in the chargers camp...
     
  35. Fins_of_Fury

    Fins_of_Fury In a contract year

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    Can we all agree that the secondary and pass rush are improved?
     
  36. finomenal

    finomenal A True Fan

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    Goodbye Carpenter:

    [video=youtube;PYsQT5qar3U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYsQT5qar3U[/video]
     
  37. Buddy

    Buddy Right Wing Nut Job Moderator Finheaven VIP

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    Who the **** is Don Jones? Couldn't we have just as easily got him in free agency? A late seventh round flier on Lonnie Pryor or Xavier Nixon or even Da'Rick Rogers would have been smarter than this. WTF?
     
  38. uk_dolfan

    uk_dolfan Founder of the FH Adam Gase fan club Moderator Finheaven VIP

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    if you dont know anything about him how do you know those players are better? lol
     
  39. zach8111

    zach8111 Pro Bowler

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    just because you have heard those names before, dont mean they are better... get over it, its a 7th round pick
     
  40. Skree

    Skree Well-Known Member

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    No.

    Pass rush SEEMS like a yes (am all for the trade up and pick) but secondary ? Not so much at all.

    IMO the only consistent solid starter is Reshad Jones.
     
  41. fishbanger

    fishbanger Phin fan since 1970!

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    I think the Will Davis pick was not ideal and I would have wanted hins to take a safety there. I still think S needs upgrade unless they plan to move Marshall there and at 93 there were still good Safeties on the board.

    J. Jenkins is good player who was hurt last year but can cover TEs and may take over for MISI if he does not come back next year. also great for STs this year.

    SIMs fills a need but should help in redzone as a receiver and blocker.

    Gillislee is good Rb with good vision and very quick cuts that make players miss. He is an upgrade over thomas and we got him in 5th round. Can pass block and also good WR so can easily give breathers to L. Miller for a few series a game.

    I like the Dallas Thomas pick because he is a two year starter at LT in the SEC going against best pass rushers in the country. Enough said. He will start this year or maybe next year for Incog or maybe start at LT if we are lucky.

    With Sturgis, we can save 2.7M on cap from beating out carpenter and we just saved 2.3 M from Bess. Thats possible 5M saved from this draft. If we cut Patterson then thats about 14M saved. This could be used to sign Winston and John Abraham.
     
  42. Digital

    Digital Starter

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    Yeah, I knew we'd add a blocking TE, but I half expected it to be an UDFA or early cut guy. Blocking TE's aren't highly regarded in the WCO like they are on power running teams. It just seemed like Ireland thought we only had 3 holes on our team and they were all on defense. We drafted pass rusher, CB and cover LB. The other picks looked like ways to reduce salary cap. Hopefully he doesn't think this roster is that close to complete.
     
  43. goonies

    goonies Banned Hammered

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    Hoops lets take a look at next years roster. How many holes will we have next yr after the one yr contracts r gone and we lose our free agents. I feel like every yr we are filling holes caused by Ireland decisions. For everyone calling Ireland first round pick great, how can you fudge up the 3rd pick in the draft. Thank the football gods he didn't. I really hope we upgrade our gm next year with someone who knows how to draft talent in every round.
     
  44. Roman529

    Roman529 Moon Runner / The 3 AM Crew

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    This draft reminded me of a good sandwich.....the bread was great on the top and bottom but there was something in between the bun that you had to toss out because it tainted the overall taste. :eat:
     
  45. goonies

    goonies Banned Hammered

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    You expressed everything I feel lol, I wish I could express my feelings as good as you.
     
  46. PJack

    PJack A True Fan

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    I liked the Sims picked better than some here. Think he's a better receiver that some give him credit for here. For what it's worth Kiper had him as the 3rd best TE in the class noting his large soft hands and surprising downfield abilities for his size. Throw in that he's one of the better blocking TE's and a good red zone threat (35" verticle) and I think he'll be more than just a blocking guy in on 1st/2nd down runs.
     
  47. FearTheBeard

    FearTheBeard FearTheBurke

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    I love how fans don't like a guy because they haven't heard of a guy....when in reality they've probably never watched the guys they've heard of in the first place...
     
  48. goonies

    goonies Banned Hammered

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    I love how fin fans defend 7rd picks when in reality they never make it.
     
  49. MiamiDolphin618

    MiamiDolphin618 A True Fan

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    Fact. I guarantee you if Hoops would have started a thread yesterday praising Will Davis...he would have a completely different perception. Now Hoops is a great evaluator from what Ive seen but too many people will read something and then make a decision on the guy when they haven't even seen him play.
     
  50. FearTheBeard

    FearTheBeard FearTheBurke

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    What do you want people to do? You evaluate a guy and if you like him then you defend him. Obviously odds are low but you have to look at the guy for what he is and that is as a 7th rounder. Jones happens to have some elite physical tools and has a lot of upside, that's what I want out of a 7th rounder. No use on hating the pick, especially if you're just listening to the talking heads.
     

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