hoops scoops...potential #19 pick lb ryan shazier tale of the tape...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by hoops, May 2, 2014.

  1. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    seems like this board is very high on the ohio state lb...i hear many people pining for the heavy collegiate production and playmaking lb with our top pick...is he worth it??? does he fit the defense and should coyle covet him??? let's see what the tape says

    first thing you notice is he literally size wise looks like a safety playing lb...i mean more than 220 lbs seems like a stretch to me but i've heard he played at 225 lbs this year and well that's as heavy as i can believe...

    anyways he's 237 now and he tested off the charts at his pro day i doubt he'll play in the pros at that heavy but i guess it's fair to say you are getting a early 230 lbs in the pros and not losing anything athletically and that will help if he can maintain it...anyways back to the tape

    i don't see any inside run game read and dx everything i see with his game is post snap reaction in that regard...athlete taking over...he gets flat run over vs the downhill running game and is on his back a lot...you don't see any real lateral flow down the los he turns and sprints sideways to the ball why is that??? cause he doesnt have any presnap read and dx...he's out of position and he's late and it's the rediculous athleticism and from a flat start quick acceleration and top end speed that keeps it from showing as much at the collegiate level...

    unlike cj mosley for instance he doesnt elude 2nd level blockers very well again why is that??? it comes back to being late on read and dx...and everything clicking in his head post snap...he is a reaction lb...a post snap player at the position...

    i frankly don't like his inside run game play at all...everything if he does fill at the los is play call determined called in from the sideline...or it's post snap reaction...if the plays directly in front of him and he's clean to the ball he can make splash plays...misses tackles in space an athlete of that level should not...can overrun the play or come in too hot

    he looks best in the run game sprinting off tackle and wide and chasing the ball down from the backside where that breathtaking acceleration and closing ability pops off the screen...

    if he makes any defensive or coverage calls i didn't see it...

    his zone drop play and awareness vs the pass is average at best...doesnt really show instincts for coverage or feel for players invading his zone...depends on that quick start acceleration and top end speed to arrive with the ball or shortly thereafter...doesnt read qb eyes all that well doesnt feel his man and the qb doesnt have his eyes on the qb at all times and i don't see much feel for route combinations and scenarios

    man coverage i'm sure that level athlete if it's his primary assignment can cover but i doubt he will make many plays on the ball in coverage cause he loses the ball and the man...you just dont see a lot of natural awareness...

    what i do see that i REALLY REALLY like is his pass rush blitz play...he's got a knack for getting to the qb and as far as picking the right route there's got to be some instincts to that but there's also a ton of athleticism driving it...his delayed blitz stand still start and close to the qb is crazy...no wonder he tested so well...his explosion abilities are elite level no way around it...burst and acceleration out the nose...

    he even shows some abilities to rush wide on the edge from a 4 point stance against tackles but it's all run wide around guys stuff...doubt it will translate to the pro level...if he's clean on the edge he shoots like out of a cannon into the backfield...if you don't account for him he's gonna be in your qbs kitchen in a hurry that's for sure

    inside blitz play shows again the ability to pick clean routes and he's willing and able to thud a stay at home blocker come off and finish the play...no doubt a lot about that explosion and rediculous quick acceleration despite lacking lead in the pants...

    bottom line is while i love the athlete and there's zero doubt he can be an effective blitz lb in the pros and in coyles scheme the all post snap reaction in every facet of the running game and the lack of awareness and instincts vs both the run and pass i would not be happy with a 1st round pick here...miamis biggest issue at lb isn't lack of athleticism it's lack of awareness for the position and instincts and too many post snap reactionary players...i don't see how ryan shazier would change that
     
  2. FSU Truth

    FSU Truth inside my DNA Finheaven VIP

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    Another nice write up

    You see a lot of guys like this who have dominated just because that are a better athlete then everyone else on the field, the problem is that once they get to the NFL they get exposed...
     
  3. CallMeDaddy

    CallMeDaddy CMD Finheaven VIP

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    I have to agree with the consensus of Mosley in the 1st or skip on LBers that will be there at 19 entirely. Grab another player and move on.
     
  4. ANUFan

    ANUFan A True Fan Donator

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    Thanks Hoops...
     
  5. FinSince1971

    FinSince1971 FinSince1971

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    I feel K Mack is the need fill for us. And I'm a huge Buckeye fan. Mack is the LINEBACKER , even though a shot at him requires another big position trade up like last year's for D Jordan.
     
  6. FSU Truth

    FSU Truth inside my DNA Finheaven VIP

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    I doubt the Dolphins can get into the top 5 unless they trade picks in next years draft
     
  7. QFFL

    QFFL Active Member

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    Mack can start for any NFL teams, I thinks he is one of the safest pick at the top. I don't think he will fall out of top 3 pick. The latest news seems pointing that Houston take him No.1 barring a trade.
     
  8. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    mack is a stud but in a 43 you probably have to make that a sam on 1st and 2nd down and then let him rush wide on 3rd down...more ideal fit 34 olb...

    forget about any miami and mack stuff ha ha...not with dion jordan here
     
  9. Travis34

    Travis34 chea Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Thanks for the write up. Good to know stuff, if only you could combine Mosley and Shazier ha
     
  10. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    if you could we wouldn't sniff it...ha ha
     
  11. LANGER72

    LANGER72 A True Fan

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    The current need on this team is a tough ILB that can stuff runs at the LOS. In this draft it is Mosely or Borland. We need to come away with one or the other.
    Mosley will likely be gone, so we need to grab Borland in the 2nd.
    Grab WR Cook at 19 and Borland with the 2nd.
    The #19 must be a play maker and someone who impacts the game IMHO.
     
  12. KTOWNFINFAN

    KTOWNFINFAN Seasoned Veteran

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    Well once again I must disagree. Once again I must admit my lack of pedigree in this area, but I see the two players 100% opposite as you. Shazier is a VERY instinctive player who plays down hill with an attitude. Funny how you say he doesn't play instinctive and CJ does, yet Ryan has 23 tackles behind the LOS to 9 for the great CJ Mosley. Plays behind the LOS scream of reading the plays and being able to trust your instincts to get to the ball and make the play. Playing safe like CJ does too often will not translate into the NFL. The NFL is about play making ability and Shazier has it in spades, while CJ is about not over running the play and is average to below average at reacting to the play once he does read it.

    In pass coverage, I will admit CJ has a real knack for playing zone and reading the direction of the QBs eyes, but that will get him trouble in the NFL, QBs will look him off with ease. Ryan on the other hand is better in man to man coverage and makes up for any lack of recognition with aggression and speed.

    As for the size issue, Ryan Shazier will be able to easily add 10-15 more pounds on that large frame without suffering any to his speed. He plays with the rabid dog attitude that has been missing around here. CJ's "play it safe" style is not what this team needs. We need playmakers and Shazier is the definition of playmaker. Shazier's 9 ff to CJ's career of 2 shows the attitude and aggression he plays with. CJ will be a safe pick that will have a slightly better rookie year, but Shazier will have the better career, with 3x the game changing plays.

    Ireland was the king of taking the safe pick, and where did that get us? Shazier isn't the safe pick, he is the drafting for potential and playmaking ability. I will take Shazier every time.
     
  13. VCU2000

    VCU2000 Well-Known Member

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    Big difference in playing against SEC competition Vs Big 10. Also Alabama plays 3-4. Its a mute point because I think Moseley will be gone top 15.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
     
  14. ONole1

    ONole1 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Nice write up as usual. I don't want to see a LB in round one. If one, my preference is TE, WR, CB, S in no particular order. I hope they can trade back and wouldn't be upset moving out of round one all together.
     
  15. Hayden Fox

    Hayden Fox Love Creating Turnovers Donator

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    Interesting. I think Mosley is there in the mid 20's.
     
  16. xXwarXx

    xXwarXx Banned Hammered

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    I don't even think shazier will be drafted in the first rnd.

    The game tape is a lot different from the highlight tape. shazier really doesn't offer much as far 3 down linebackers go.
     
  17. ANUFan

    ANUFan A True Fan Donator

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    I don't know much about the X's and O's of football. So, I defer to Hoops and others that know the game. But, what I can say with eye test is that C.J.Mosely looks like most of the LBs we've had around here (The Carlos Dansby, The Barnettes, The Misi, The Ellerbee etc). Big, nonathletic, take for ever to accelerate, Isolate them on a back one on one and likely they are done. It's rare to see them generate turnovers; Essentially they aren't scaring anybody.

    Now, Shazier looks like nothing we've ever had at LB and quite frankly that excites me. Because, with him, Wake, Jordan, OV on the field all at the same time....Oh yeah! That's a group thats gonna put pressure on an Offense and likely generate T/Os.

    Even if they are slightly out of position it's very likely they can recover very quickly and are more likely to cause chaos...
     
  18. cangrejero

    cangrejero Well-Known Member

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    ANUfan, If CJ looks like Dansby, then i take him in a heartbeat.
     
  19. xXwarXx

    xXwarXx Banned Hammered

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    H looks more like Ted ginn than Dansby.
     
  20. Hayden Fox

    Hayden Fox Love Creating Turnovers Donator

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    Van Noy is an excellent LBer too.
     
  21. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    I guess the main point I would make is if you put that with someone who does have instincts at lb you are probably not gonna have much issue cause of the superior athlete and that player will help him...

    But in Miamis case where there is no instincts pretty much anywhere in the unit this isn't the guy...either way not something that shows enough feel for the position for me to ever give it a 1st round grade...
     
  22. where's th'fish

    where's th'fish Scout Team Donator

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    The graveyards are full of GMs who pick athletes over football players. No thank you.
     
  23. PSU Cane

    PSU Cane Starter

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    Couldn't have said it better my man. His stock rose from offseason workouts, not his play on the field. Incredible athlete.....nobody is denying that.....and his athleticism has lead to a nice highlight reel. However, digging into play after play of game tape and you see his flaws. He is not an instictive athlete, struggles at the point of attack getting off blocks, and hesitates too much inside against the run. I was surprised to see him struggle on the outside in space against WRs in that Clemson game. I mean yes, it is Sammy and Martavis but those are the types of guys you will see in the NFL. If you draft him, you need to put him in a freelance system at the weak side where he's allowed to attack the QB and hunt things down from the backside.

    By the way, Sammy might be my favorite player in this draft. That kid is so good.
     
  24. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    What's your thoughts on cj Mosley and Kyle van noy...van noys solb in a 43 all the way to me and with misi here unless he was moved to mike which is a move I would not make cause he doesn't have the read and dx to play it at a high end I don't see the fit...there's no way I'd try to get away with van noy as a wolb...

    Very good player good instincts but not if misis here...
     
  25. FSU Truth

    FSU Truth inside my DNA Finheaven VIP

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    Ireland just resigned Misi so he will be here for at least another year....
     
  26. Gonzo

    Gonzo Widerstand Administrator Finheaven VIP

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    Nice write up hoops. I love these threads! Who is next?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  27. LANGER72

    LANGER72 A True Fan

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    That was Irelands fatal flaw. Metrics over instincts.

    Misi - Mosely - Jordan/Ellerbee

    Bench / ST - Wheeler
     
  28. Xbrett82us

    Xbrett82us Starter

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    i say we trade up for anthony barr
     
  29. MP-Omnis

    MP-Omnis Larry King, Antique Bandwagon

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    Hoops, you always have things to say worth reading. However, for longer posts like these, could you perhaps take more time to write them better? It's not as easy to follow without caps and with all... the... ellipses... Did you write this thread from your phone or something? Not trying to be grammar police, just asking a favor for the future. I still enjoy your posts. :thanks:
     
  30. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Good write up, hoops. I think you bring up some legitimate points, but (as you're aware), I don't agree with your conclusions.

    I'd start with instincts. When Shazier is playing downhill, his instincts are top-notch. When it comes to shooting gaps, he's a 10/10. I've said it before, but this aspect of his game reminds me of Junior Seau. Elite explosion and an innate feel for shooting the gap. So when I see elite instincts in one area but only good instincts in another area, I'd want a reason for the disparity. Shazier has only been playing LB's full time for two years. He came to Ohio State (with Myer) as a DE. Mosley played LB in high school, and he played all four seasons at Alabama. I think he's still adjusting to the position, but once he's as comfortable in space as he his penetrating, I think you'll see those instincts translate. I haven't taken a count, but based on my viewings, Shazier has to deal with many more O-linemen than does Mosley. When Shazier isn't blocked, he's basically automatic. He's too athletic. But as I said, teams put an emphasis on getting O-linemen to Shazier - sometimes double teams. Despite this, and despite his relative lack of experience, he outproduced Mosley.

    I think you're nitpicking a dominant player and athlete. When there is such a disparity in athleticism and production (as there is between Shazier and Mosley), I think you're going to have a tough time making a strong argument for the less athletic, less productive player.

    36 total tackles, 40 solo tackles, 14.5 TFL, 7 sacks, and 3 FF's - not a bad stat line, but that's just the disparity between the two.
     
  31. Travis34

    Travis34 chea Finheaven VIP Donator

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    wow. It's not that hard to read
     
  32. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    So really what you are saying j off her doll is that you project that he will develop feel awareness and instincts for the position because he's so new to playing lb...maybe that will happen but I'm not taking that kind of chance projection when instincts and awareness are absolutely critical at lb in the first round.....

    Some positions sign me up for projections all day lb...nah...
     
  33. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I'm saying that he's already a great player, and a better player than Mosley, but that there's still meat on the bone. Mosley is what he is - and has injury concerns.
     
  34. Gonzo

    Gonzo Widerstand Administrator Finheaven VIP

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    That's exactly what you are doing. This is a message board, not the New Yorker. It was pretty easy to read with or without caps and/or ellipses.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  35. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    Correct...so why would I bring in van noy and make him split snaps on early downs or compete with frankly the best lb in the core as it stands right now in misi...the most strength at the poa and best shed and fill lb for sure

    I wouldn't...
     
  36. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    It's all good...I told everyone from the beginning I'm not a writer have no interest in it...I haven't written a complete sentence since I graduated college not gonna start now...my line of work nothing worse than wasted words...you want that go talk to your wives they are great at meaningless fluff before they ever get to the point...

    Too hard to read or put together no worries...don't read it
     
  37. FSU Truth

    FSU Truth inside my DNA Finheaven VIP

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    HE is a great athlete, but not a great player...I have never seen anyone develop "instincts" you either have them or not....Someone will pick him up and he will make a spectacular play from time to time, but will end up being more of a liability who finds himself out of position more often then not.
     
  38. Awsi Dooger

    Awsi Dooger A True Fan

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    First of all, Shazier is a South Florida kid. He's from Ft. Lauderdale. All the local schools wanted him badly. He committed to Florida before Meyer resigned due to health reasons. Then he detoured to Ohio State. It's ridiculous to dismiss Shazier's production since it's majority from the Big Ten. The power rating gap between the typical Big Ten team and SEC team is never more than a point or two. Too many happy adjusting fans want to pretend it's a different species.

    This type of thing seems to show up every year. Two similarly rated players magnetize split camp allegiance. Fans of each side tend to overstate their guy while nitpicking the other.

    I tend to prefer Shazier although I'm worried about him with Mitchell here instead of Soliai. An upfield gap splitting dynamo like Shazier would have been perfect if we still had Soliai clogging the middle and occupying two defenders. A guy like Mitchell is trying to shoot the same gaps, and the opponent isn't going to worry about him enough to assign two blockers.

    Ohio State has a handful of guys who perpetually make big plays. If you watch their games it's a monopoly every week, the same few guys flashing on offense and defense. That's fine until you run into a rugged no-nonsense team like Michigan State, which isn't going to care about the occasional big play. They pound and grind every play, good enough to wear out blue collar Stanford as well as splashy Ohio State.

    In our case, I think it's about time we tried the glitzy big play approach. We've paddled water for a decade with athletes who don't stand out in this league. Besides, I tend to agree with j-off-her-doll that Shazier's overall instincts are improving. Today I finally received Nolan Nawrocki's Draft Preview book. He devotes a section to the same idea: "Still developing eyes and instincts -- will diagnose and trigger more quickly down the road."

    I wouldn't mind Mosley. Young player, not yet 22. He's a clear step above anyone we've had. But he's not exactly a wide body himself. Shazier does resemble a safety these days. Keep in mind he's only three years out of high school so he'll logically fill out.

    Shazier and Kouandijo are third year juniors. That's natural upside. Imagine if the same guys had redshirted in college and were entering their fourth year in the program as a redshirt junior. That's where Zack Martin was two years ago. No kidding they won't be fully polished. I have to laugh when players like Martin are praised for great technique at this stage while every fault of Kouandjio or Shazier is spotlighted. Martin is more than 2.5 years older than Kouandjio.
     
  39. roy_miami

    roy_miami 2020 cant get here soon enough Donator

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    If you're looking for ideas on the next prospect to dissect I think one of the defensive backs are a real possibility at 19 for us, pretty much everybody except Grimes, Jones and the rookies are on a one year deal. And Jones better step it up...
     
  40. KTOWNFINFAN

    KTOWNFINFAN Seasoned Veteran

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    ?? See I can see you saying that about someone like Dion Jordan, but you DO realize that Shazier put up better production number than Mosley, right? More tackles, more forced fumbles, more sacks, and he did so from the WLB spot rather than the MLB who is normally your leading tackler. To say Shazier is just an athlete rather than a player is not realistic. Watch entire games rather than just the highlights, even on plays where he doesn't get the tackle he is almost always the reason why someone else did. He is a team guy who understands team defense and leverage, and will grasp the NFL game sooner rather than later.
     

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