Icing the Kicker Rule

Discussion in 'General NFL Forum' started by SF Dolphin Fan, Sep 12, 2017.

  1. SF Dolphin Fan

    SF Dolphin Fan Seasoned Veteran

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    This rule has always bothered me. Not the rule itself, but the execution. I'm fine with calling a timeout prior to the snap, but once the ball is snapped it's too late.

    This is one rule I'd like to see modified a bit so that kickers aren't having to kick field goals twice. Just my opinion, but hate seeing dramatic field goals made and then the timeout accepted. IMO the timeout should be well before the snap. Opinions?
     
  2. VBCheeseGrater

    VBCheeseGrater Not Quite A Shredder Finheaven VIP

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    They can't call timeout after the snap. They just time it right before the snap so it appears that way. I like that they limited it to one timeout - beyond that, i'm not sure what else could be done that would not cause its own set of problems
     
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  3. artdnj

    artdnj Time is Now Finheaven VIP

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    I dislike it but sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Double edged sword.
     
  4. scodoublet

    scodoublet Anywhere. Anytime. Donator

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    I think "icing" is a bit silly, but it's typically called on longer FG attempts and if it has a chance of working, even if it's only 5%, it's worth trying.
     
  5. roy_miami

    roy_miami 2020 cant get here soon enough Donator

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    I think the kickers like having a practice kick at it.
     
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  6. traptses

    traptses Starter

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    It's all fine and well until the opposing kicker misses the game winning kick and has another shot at it because you called a timeout, and then makes the second attempt
     
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  7. Vaark

    Vaark Nihil taurus crappus Finheaven VIP Donator

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    It's a fair and square rule that could end up being to each team's benefit or detriment. However, like all rules are subject to change, I'd prefer to see this one modified that if a time out is called before a field goal in the last 90 seconds, the LOS is then advanced at least 5 yds. In some cases, that's enough to make the defending HC give it some strategic thought rather than it being a no-brainer.
     
  8. gregorygrant83

    gregorygrant83 A True Fan

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    A 5 yard difference in a field goal is too much. No coach would ice a kicker if it means making the kick 5 yards easier.

    As for last night, I think the timeout not only acted to ice the kicker, but it also gave Denver a chance to see the Chargers kick blocking scheme and come up with a good rush strategy. I think the kick itself was ok and would have been good if it wasn't blocked. The extra look gave Denver a chance to see where they could slip through the blocking creases.
     
  9. raving

    raving Starter

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    It is a flaw in the nfl rule book.

    There are many...

    Half the distance to the goal line - flawed.

    Offensive holding should not be repeat the down...if you got sacked you lose the yards and the down - so technically committing a penalty is beneficial. Flawed

    Kicking timeouts should be IMO 3 seconds before kick and no later....

    You can ice em but 3 seconds obliterates confusion like what happened in the dolphin jet game last year - Rex Ryan tried to ice our kicker but failed...if that were bellichik...????

    That referee subjectivity is death knell and I hate it...

    I believe in eliminating every possibility of referee bias - if possible - especially those that are obvious and easy to fix. The refs often have way too much influence in a game...they always will but when an obvious way to clean some of it up makes itself known....I say do it...
     
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  10. SF Dolphin Fan

    SF Dolphin Fan Seasoned Veteran

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    I mean sometimes it backfires, the kicker misses and they get another chance. I just don't think the intent of the rule is really being followed. I think the timeout should be well in advance of the snap.
    Which happened to New England and helped them go 16-0. Rex Ryan was the one who called the timeout.
     
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  11. SF Dolphin Fan

    SF Dolphin Fan Seasoned Veteran

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    Well said. The unsportsmanlike penalty against New Orleans is another good example. That hit on the Minnesota receiver essentially cost the Saints a couple of yards since it happened inside the 10 yard line. Maybe that should be half the distance and then added to the kickoff to make up the additional 15 yards.

    I also have never liked the spike rule. With the passing game being so easy now, giving up a down to stop the clock is such a huge offensive advantage. It's essentially a timeout for a loss of down. It does allow teams to come way back and that's exciting unless you're the team trying to hang onto the lead.
     
  12. J. David Wannyheimer

    J. David Wannyheimer 5 Years of Posting Excellence. Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I think this thing where coaches sit there trying to time it is ridiculous, but how do you create a rule for that?

    Sometimes a coach legitimately wants to call a time-out when the other team is lined up in field goal formation.
     
  13. CorduroyG

    CorduroyG Rookie

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    this happened to us against the jets in 2012. jets missed fg in ot but philbin called timeout, 2nd try is good and we lose.


    leave it to philbin lol

     
  14. oasis

    oasis Lost in the fog

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    He successfully iced the kicker at the end, but seeing him in the HC role didn't make me miss Joseph at all. His team collapsed at the end and barely escaped with a game they should have run away with. Makes me wonder if that's why our D seemed soft at times.
     
  15. Trifecta Nation

    Trifecta Nation Rookie

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    Let's not forget the old onside kick rule where after failure to kick it ten yards, the kicking team got backed up and GOT TO TRY AGAIN!!!!

    No, no......you screw up once, you get no do over!! Glad that got fixed.
     
  16. gregorygrant83

    gregorygrant83 A True Fan

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    Nah just let all penalty yards acrrue over the course of the game and allow teams yo use them when ever they want. That would be fun. The ball at the 50 and you have 20 extra yards due to penalties in the bank, coach says go on move the ball up to the 30. The strategy becomes when do you use your yards do you wait till the end of the game? Do you use them to counter the opponent trying to use their yards? Team A "We'll use 10 of our yards now" - Team B "Well we'll just use 15 of ours now to push you back an additional 5 yards." Heck if you have 60 yards of penalty yards in the bank you could either instantly move into scoring position in the final 2 minutes of a game or push you opponent from your 20 all the way back to their own 20. It would be deadly.
     
  17. Trifecta Nation

    Trifecta Nation Rookie

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    Yeah, good point on the spike rule. How is that NOT the same as intentional grounding? It should be.
     
  18. Spiff

    Spiff Starter Finheaven VIP

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    I don't see how that would be possible. Coach: "Timeout" Ref: "Nope, he's going to kick it in 2 seconds." The referees would need to look into the future.
     
  19. Spiff

    Spiff Starter Finheaven VIP

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    I actually like the spike rule. Reasonable trade off.
     
  20. clownfish

    clownfish A True Fan

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    How about the rule where a fumble into the opponents endzone and subsequently out of bounds, gives the ball to the opponent at the 20? That has got to be the worst NFL rule hands down.
     
  21. Spiff

    Spiff Starter Finheaven VIP

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    How would you address it? The only realistic option I see is that the fumbling team gets possession at the spot where they fumbled, so in that scenario the back of the endzone would be treated as out of bounds essentially.
     
  22. 67Stang

    67Stang FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I thought it was funny when they asked Rex Ryan what he did in that situation.....I am sure he had a flashback to last year!
     
  23. <O>

    <O> Well-Known Member

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    What the research shows is that making people who are highly skilled at something "nervous" has virtually no effect on their performance. Think about how many free throws are made seemingly effortlessly when the game is on the line.

    What has a negative effect on performance is having them take something done on "auto-pilot" (muscle memory) and making them think about the actual physical movement involved.

    Think of how little you think about brushing your teeth when you do it. It's done via muscle memory. So are these kicks and free throws.

    I doubt a time-out makes a kicker think more about the intricate process of kicking the ball. Chances are it does nothing.

    Then again if you have a time-out to spare, what is there to lose. I doubt the time-out makes them kick any better, either.
     
  24. raving

    raving Starter

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    The rules of the game need to be reworked such that it is NEVER an advantage to the team that commits a penalty.

    Fumble out of the endzone should not result in the other team receiving the ball - or if they do change the rule that says that a team fumbles out of bounds keeps the ball - as it stands now fumbling team maintains possession and gains yardage if the ball roles forward on its way out of bounds. The endzone is another boundary - so with the rule as it is now - The fumbling team should get the ball . Here the NFL is inconsistent around how it treats a team for making a mistake (fumbling).

    Fumbles forward should be brought back to where the ball was fumbled - I noticed the Patriots got a first down by fumbling the ball forward on Thursday evening - mistakes can gain you an advantage in dynamic play of the game - but not granted to you after the play by the refs.

    Penalties need to be taken immediately or declined immediately and not accumulated because the game is an unfolding drama or saga or story on the battlefield. It is sequential in that way and should remain that way.

    Refs can create a hand signal that counts down to the 3 second clock that offers the opposing team a chance to call timeout. Offense can call timeout down to the last possible moment. Then all guess work is taken out of "the icing" process.

    Take the result of the game out of the ref's hands.

    Refs use their subjective judgement every play - so the thing the NFL needs to look at is intra game calls - or are the calls made consistently for both sides during a game. Every game is called differently - so within game consistency is a problem - change those rules that create advantage for the team committing the penalty.

    The nfl has done a good job with review.

    Its not perfect but its better.

    It takes too long which is a technical issue but 2 reviews is good - mandatory change of possession and score reviews seem to work too.
     
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  25. BahamaFinFan78

    BahamaFinFan78 A True Fan

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    The spike rule breaks a rule now, just no official will enforce it
     
  26. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Not only does the intentional grounding rule specify that it is only a foul when facing loss of yardage due to defensive pressure, but there is also a clause for clock stoppage if done immediately upon receiving the snap. IOW, spiking the ball to stop the clock is listed and permitted under NFL rules.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  27. K-Rob

    K-Rob #1 Fin Cheerleader - Chiquita Lady Lumps Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I don't care how it's justified, I think icing the kicker is a b**ch move. It involves absolutely no football skill and no talent. Just a cheap way to mess with the player and it's out of the spirit of the game. It's also just a matter of time before someone gets hurt or has their career ended on a meaningless play that ended up being a time out.
     
  28. gregorygrant83

    gregorygrant83 A True Fan

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    I'm not sure I follow... if the team didn't call a timeout the play would have still be ran and the player likely would have still be injured. How would the timeout cause a a severe injury on the play?
     
  29. BobDole

    BobDole Suck it Trebek

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    I'd like to take kickers out altogether. 165 lb soccer players who play 7 snaps a contest shouldn't have such a massive impact on football games. Give each team 10 plays from their own 15 and all this icing the kicker nonsense is forgotten immediately.

    Punters would soon join their extinct counterparts ... and you don't even have to do anything. The problem would fix itself.
     
  30. EvilDylan

    EvilDylan A True Fan Donator

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    If they are injured on the subsequent play after the timeout.
     
  31. gregorygrant83

    gregorygrant83 A True Fan

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    Injuries happen. I can't think of very many serious injuries on a field goal attempt. If there was a serious injury on a kick it would likely be either due to someone being wreckless or dirty play and that's not the kind of thing you could directly blame on an extra play due to a timeout. That's like saying if there's a penalty on the kick and you get a second shot any injuries are due to the penalty.
     

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