Johnny Manziel Critics

Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by WVDolphan, Mar 31, 2014.

  1. WVDolphan

    WVDolphan Banned Hammered

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    This is yet another example of the ridiculous ideas that come from media and other critics of Manziel. This is Mike Zimmer who actually coaches in the NFL saying things that make absolutely no sense to knock Manziel......

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...on-manziel-there-are-some-flags-that-come-up/

    I guess Mike Zimmer has not seen Papa Johns or Tide commercials lately. While eating, sleeping, and breathing football, both Brees and Manning find time to do plenty of TV commercials. Yet, when Manziel does it, it is a huge red flag? I dont get it.

    On top of that, at the college level, the players are only allowed to practice so many hours. To suggest doing commercials makes a player not devoted to the game while citing 2 players who do commercials as an example of what is an acceptable level of devotion to him, Zimmer shows himself to be clueless. I have a hard time believing Zimmer knows what he is talking about and therefore will likely struggle as a head coach in the NFL.

    But, this has been going on since Manziel won the Heisman. Everything he does is thrown out there as some kind of "red flag". Show me the crimes that Manziel has committed and I might think there is an issue. Show me where Manziel abuses drugs on the Ryan Mallett level. Show me where Manziel shows himself to give up on the field or go Suh on someone because he is losing. No one can because it never happened. All Manziel did was go to a few frat parties, let people on twitter know he believes he is great, and brag a little on the field. Big deal. While he did all of that he showed himself to be a great competitor, leader, and winner. He did that while displaying incredible talent.

    Here we have a guy who the great Nick Saban called "one of the greatest and most fierce competitors I ever saw". Yet somehow he is painted as this guy who dosent take the game seriously and has character issues. I hope all of the other teams buy into this nonsense and he is left on the board for the taking when the Dolphins select.

    Some of the so called experts are on ESPN saying they wouldnt take him in the mid rounds. Merrill Hoge is on record saying he wouldnt draft him at all. :lol:

    On the other hand, when Bob Griffin entered the draft, NOBODY in the media was saying any of this stuff. I was the one of the few saying I wouldnt draft him at all. There were obvious red flags about his character that Awsi pointed out on this forum, but the media painted Griffin as this perfect gentleman. Not only are these things reversed on these two players, Manziel is actually a good player whereas Bob Griffin is terrible. I wonder why it is that nobody in the media would say anything but pleasant stuff about Griffin, yet they are quick to bash Manziel? :ponder:

    All I know is that there are going to be some teams kicking themselves in the near future for passing on Manziel when they needed a QB in the worst way.
     
  2. xXwarXx

    xXwarXx Banned Hammered

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    Difference between the way Manziel and manning and how they love football, is that you can go to any bar in NO and see a picture of manning, and all those pictures are store bought, none of them is he Actuslly in the bar.

    Manziel may be competitive and love football, but he will still be party Johnny at the end of the day. A lot of coaches, just don't want any part of that.

    For all you guys that are constantly fine with taking players with character concerns, imagine YOUR job and rep is on the line.
     
  3. FearTheBeard

    FearTheBeard FearTheBurke

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    Smokescreen WV.
     
  4. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Very good chance. Unless it's a double-smoke screen, and he wants people to think he's trying to sound like he's not interested :^p
     
  5. FearTheBeard

    FearTheBeard FearTheBurke

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    He's got a good relationship with Sumlin, I don't think he'd drag him through the mud like that. He could technically be pumping up Sumlin as a coach while also making teams think he isn't interested on his QB needy team where he needs some fortune for Johnny to slide to him.
     
  6. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Girlziel sucks.
     
  7. FearTheBeard

    FearTheBeard FearTheBurke

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    People love to hate what they're jealous of...but ya lets bash a 20 year old kid who's on the top of world because we don't like the media's perception of his "attitude".

    Plus that's a terrible chirp.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 1, 2014
  8. Canadi-Phin

    Canadi-Phin I hate everyone else in the AFC East

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    Not to totally knock your point but I just got back from Memphis and there was a picture of Peyton and Eli at each bar and restaurant, of them in the bar and restaurant. Every single one.
     
  9. justdev7

    justdev7 Rookie

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    There shouldn't be any doubt about Manziel's competitiveness. That guy wants to win and it shows.

    But there are plenty of other reasons to be concerned about whether or not he'll be a successful passer in the NFL.

    1) He struggles reading coverage and making decisions from inside the pocket. He also has a tendency to stare down receivers.

    [video=youtube;9Fu91Eu8M8E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fu91Eu8M8E[/video]

    2) He's loose with the ball when he scrambles.

    3) He makes bad decisions throwing on the run as well. I wish that I had counted the number of times that he just threw the ball up unto a crowd and someone (usually Mike Evans) came down with it.

    All that being said, there are still a lot of things to like about Manziel. I think he's shown the ability to make great touch passes. He has above average arm strength. And his competitiveness is second to none.

    So while I have Manziel rated lower than most, I certainly wouldn't knock him for making commercials and going to parties.
     
  10. Awsi Dooger

    Awsi Dooger A True Fan

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    They'll be wrong. Let them be wrong. The more decisions you make the greater likelihood of flubbing the bottom line.

    Robert Griffin really didn't surface nationwide in a big way until late in his senior year. For some reason nobody bothered to backtrack. I wasn't the only one howling about his character issues. There were several posters on the major college football forums doing the same, notably the fans of Oklahoma State after Griffin whined throughout that first half while Baylor was trampled at Stillwater. That game preceded the fame.

    I remembered similar examples from every season of his career. I bet so many games you get to know the principals, often for ease of cursing them by name.

    Greatness finds a way. That's my amusement with all the knocks on Manziel's playing style. Do you really want to be among that crowd, the ones who think he'll fade to mediocrity or worse simply because the NFL is more pocket oriented? Scary. Absolutely scary. There's a guy with all this early demonstrated talent, good enough to shred Alabama twice, and you are relying on an adjustment and little else. Good luck with that. Manziel drops back, scans the field, and suddenly the adjusters are terrified. Wait a minute. He completed a dart from the pocket. And he didn't act surprised or winded or even slightly impressed with himself. How can that happen? What about my cynical adjustment? The freak talents have no trouble adapting. Secretariat preferred to stretch run but when the Preakness unfolded with need to go to the front, he looped the field early and said goodbye.

    The same crowd who want to pretend a moderate talent merely needs more time are generally the ones who happily downgrade the genius types.

    When Manziel became prominent midway through the 2012 season, I did some research and found the high school article in which he emphasized that he was determined to be a good person off the field. I posted that link here last fall. As always, I place highest value on early indications, not last second cramming for tests. I believe Manziel will live up to that promise. Admittedly, it's somewhat of a leap of faith. I trust my judgment. Even when Robert Griffin starred early as a Redskin I knew the long established character problems had to surface. Not to mention the complete inability to sense pressure, and therefore vulnerable to leg injuries galore. Can anyone with a straight face imagine Robert Griffin executing the dip and dodge maneuver that Manziel pulled off against Duke?
     
  11. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I just don't agree with that at all.

    Johnny Manziel can talk a big game about being a diligent worker and living/breathing the game, but when it comes time to show up to the most prestigious passing camp in existence for an experience most quarterbacks would kill to be invited to, he shows up drunk/hungover and gets kicked out of it. That's his commitment level.

    And there's a lot more sh-t under the surface down there at College Station that people haven't heard of. And he knows it. And he knows that the scouts know it. That's why he has to continue to talk a big game about how college was college and NOW it's time to get serious. He said that, not me. That was his message, carefully crafted, at the NFL Combine.

    Except it doesn't work like that. You don't develop a work ethic overnight. You don't just flip the on switch and suddenly you're a professional. That's something you have to have been working at for years, tediously attempting to perfect. Being a professional is like any other skill. It's like any other trade. You have to work at it. The weak ones say well NOW I'm going to do it. No big. I wasn't doing it before but now it counts.

    Yes the man is going to have to change his game in order to play in the NFL. Not because the game demands quarterbacks stay in the pocket and everyone be Tom Brady. Not at all. He's going to have to change because *he* can't play that way, because of *his* shortcomings. He's tiny, his body has ALREADY taken on punishment and a bunch of injuries, and that's only going to get worse when the bodies get bigger and more explosive and the hits can knock you unconscious to where you wake up playing baseball. He's got an average arm. He's got average accuracy. He's got 4.6 speed, and that was something I could have and did in fact tell people BEFORE he ran in Indianapolis even back when he was telling people he hadn't run a 40 yard dash in like 3 or 4 years.

    Maybe he can find a way to adapt. It wouldn't shock me. I don't have him on the "do not draft" list. But I don't have him with the same grade I put on Russell Wilson either (mid to high 2nd round). I don't think it's a great bet asking players with his off field character issues to adapt and accept change with the type of aplomb of an NFL quarterback.
     
  12. TruePoizon

    TruePoizon Well-Known Member

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    I never understood the hype. He seems very self centered, spoiled little brat. A diva if you ask me.
     
  13. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    You lost me at average accuracy.
     
  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    For the level of prospect we're talking about. His percentage of overthrows/underthrows/wide throws is a lot higher than the other prospects up at the top, I believe.
     
  15. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    That's fair enough. I don't see it that way. I saw a guy who consistently put the ball in the perfect spot on difficult throws. At the next level, he has to learn to take the easy throw more often, but I think it's easier to teach that than it is to teach someone to throw the ball down the field. I can't say these statistics are 100% correct, but they match what I've seen, and according to them, Manziel completed 73.5% of his passes from inside the pocket (best of all AQ QB's) for a YPA of 9.7. Keeping in mind that he rarely had the threat of a running game - given the horrible D that he played with (which allowed 2,890 rushing yards - over 200 yards 9 times and over 300 yards twice) - and that he played in the SEC, it's even more impressive.

    For my money, his accuracy beyond 10 yards is about as good as it gets - easily the best of the QB's in this draft.

    http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/86640/gruden-qb-camp-johnny-manziel

    http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/45952/349/2014s-quarterback-conundrum?pg=1
     
  16. rob19

    rob19 Soul Rebel Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Kid’s gonna be a star.

    George Whitfield said this guy’s heart is as big as a Toyota, and I believe him. Easily one of the most psycho competitors I’ve seen in my short time watching football. I don’t think a guy with that big of a flame in his heart to win is just going to rest on his laurels. I mean, if you take his pro-day into consideration, even some of his harshest critics like Ron Jaworksi were pretty much in agreement when they said they saw vast improvements in his mechanics, velocity, etc. “George Whitfield has done a terrific job of coaching him up. I did not see those flaws in mechanics [at his pro day]. I saw him stand on his back foot, driving the football. Throwing the football with velocity and accuracy.” I’d also think most people would agree that even after he won the Heisman his freshman season he came back an even better player for his sophomore campaign. So, I personally don’t share Zimmer’s concerns about this guy’s desire to improve his skills.

    I also don’t think he has to dramatically change his play style, either. He just needs to learn to get his eight yards and get down or out of bounds. Russell Wilson ran for over five-hundred yards last year while taking very little punishment, and it’s because he is absolutely deft at avoiding contact and living to fight another day. You could certainly question his instincts about protecting himself when the bullets start flying, but I think the kid’s smart enough that I’d take my chances. Mike Tomlin uses a phrase I really like which is “I’d rather say woah than sic’ em”, so I think most coaches would be willing to work with him on that. Also, like Wilson, he has huge hands and size fifteen shoes; which in and of itself means nothing, but it does go to show he’s not your typical six-footer.

    I also think he gets a raw deal on his pure throwing ability. Mayock attended his pro-day in person and said without question he has the quickest release and most velocity out of any Quarterback in this draft. Also said he’s a better natural thrower than both Wilson and Kaepernick. "I think he's a better thrower than either (Colin) Kaepernick or Russell Wilson were when they came out (of college)," Mayock said. "This was the most different evaluation I've ever done. At the end of it, you just trust your gut."

    Personally, I don’t know what games you’re watching if you would take Bortles or Bridgewater over this kid. Sometimes I think these NFL types out-smart themselves. I’ll take Johnny Swag every single time over a dude who shrinks under the Pro-Day pressure of having all those scouts and GMs watching your every throw. Even worse than that, though, were Bridgewater’s lame excuses afterwards. I mean, if you want to blame your gloves then whatever, but don’t come back a few days later and say Kentucky’s cold weather affected you because you’ve been throwing in Florida. You were INSIDE A DOME, Teddy. No one wants to hear that, especially not a team in a cold weather city.
     
  17. Hungover

    Hungover Scout Team

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    I'm not a Manziel hater - he's an amazing college QB, but the issue is if that transfers to the next level. Frankly I don't think it will. He will be overdrafted and be a first rounder, but frankly I don't think he's better than third round in this super-draft, and probably on projection should be lower than that.

    As for his mechanics: he has different release points for whatever distance he's throwing, and his deeper balls just die at the end - you may think these are minor things but they will be ruthlessly exposed at the next level. His footwork isn't great but it has definitely got better, the other issues I just don't think are correctable. He just doesn't have a cannon for an arm and has compensated via poor technique.

    His competitive streak: yes he's definitely competitive - but that doesn't mean he will make it in the NFL - there are plenty more college players who are probably much more competitive who will never even make a practice squad in the NFL, just because they don't have the talent.

    His play style: I don't really know what to say about this - if you don't think he has to dramatically change his play style you just aren't seeing the same things I see about his play. His play needs a very dramatic overhaul or his stay in the NFL will be an extremely short one, for the fact alone he will face significant injury issues, let alone anything else (ie his progressions etc).

    People keep on mentioning Wilson and Brees in relation to Manziel but they are the exception that proves the rule - if you are a bigger QB you have a greater chance to succeed, that's one reason why Bortles is on top of most QB draft boards for this draft. Bortles talents (size, arm strength etc) just project better to the next level, add to the fact he's been playing in an NFL style offence the last two years - he's basically just a much safer bet than Manziel. Yes Manziel is the better college player, but that doesn't mean Johnny Football will be the better NFL player. As for Bridgewater - he's definitely a better prospect than Manziel, would not be surprised if Manziel goes earlier in the draft however.

    Anyway, its an interesting argument, end of the day we aren't really going to know who will be better for at least another 4 years or so - however I will point out the obvious fact there have been a number of stunning college QBs whose talents didn't transfer to the NFL. The list of NFL QB busts is littered with Heisman Trophy winners and National Championship winners - frankly in my view Manziel will be yet another bust and as I've said on here once before, I pity the team that overdrafts him in the first round, or even the second for that matter.
     
  18. xXwarXx

    xXwarXx Banned Hammered

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    Case Keenum 2.0, in every way, except Keenum has a much better deep ball, but is less accurate on the short and mid range stuff.

    Other than that, those two are so freaking similar it's sickening.
     
  19. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    I don't think he's similar to Keenum at all. Keenum was in college 6 years before he was really effective running Sumlin's offense. He was a 25 year old playing against C-USA defenses. Manziel dominated NFL caliber players as a 20 year old redshirt freshman on his way to being the first freshman to ever win a Heisman Trophy. He actually improved as a passer last year.

    The big hands are a legitimate key here. He has hands bigger than most prototypical NFL QB's.

    Manziel cemented himself as one of the best college football players of all time in 2 years. Keenum isn't even in Manziel's class. He's in Kliff Kingsbury's class. Manziel can make every throw required to play at the next level. Keenum never had that level of arm strength.
     
  20. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Just for the record xXwarXx says Keenum has a much better deep ball than Manziel. Noted.
     
  21. xXwarXx

    xXwarXx Banned Hammered

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    I was more comparing there play style and level of production in college. Especially there god awful stats against the blitz are similar. Or the fact they both run around in circles for no damn reason far more often than any NFL qb should.

    Yes I agree, Manziel is a higher level player, but IMO, not by a awhile lot. And there far more similar than most will admit. Keenum would of done just fine chilling behind that Texas oline, tossing to Evans. He looked pretty good in the NFL before teams realized a constant blitz and pressure would completely disrupt him, and Manziel is going to find the same exact scenario.

    And can we stop with manziels hands and feet already? Why are manziels hands and feet so relevant, I've never heard anyone talk about a qbs hands and feet so often as Manziel, its like you guys are trying to make up for his short comings by talking up his hands and feet, it's kinda ridiculous if you ask me.

    ---------- Post added at 08:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 AM ----------

    Good, take more notes...
     
  22. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    If the issue of hand size is new to you, I assume that a lot of other things are new to you as well. Do a quick Google search.

    http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/a...nt-Trait/b151b153-1e0d-409f-b9f1-b63727fe96cd
     
  23. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Hand size is a critical component for any offensive skill position that makes their living handling the football. That's why they spend so much time measuring 'em. None moreso than the QB position.

    Lack of height can be overcome. Small hands cannot. Take it from somebody who coached high school quarterbacks 25 years ago.
     
  24. Hungover

    Hungover Scout Team

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    Yes I'm certain Manziels massive hands will impact his ability to make correct reads from the pocket in the NFL, change the velocity on his deep ball, and help him avoid injury when he takes off from the pocket for the 2nd time in a row and the 6th time in his previous 10 plays and gets hammered by a 250 lb 'backer moving at NFL speed . WTF.
     
  25. xXwarXx

    xXwarXx Banned Hammered

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    I never said hand size isnt an issue, I just said I'm tired of hearing about in regards to Manziel, in the history of NFL qbs, I never remember anyones hand size constantly being brought up. It's been noted, great, he's got big hands, ok, move on. I dont need to hear Gil Brandt ranting and raving about Manziels damn feet size for 3 days straight, its ridiculous. Are we drafting a guy because of his hand size now? Probably not.

    Maybe we can measure his junk too, and do a study on it, and stats may show, if he has smaller junk, it gives his legs more room to extend and move, allowng him to add more speed to his 40 time, bringing up a qbs draft projection.

    Small junk = high draft pick now. Gotta draft him, if he got a small package.
     
  26. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Now you two are just trolling.
     
  27. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    He'll have to learn how to give himself up. That's a different subject entirely. Quarterbacks get hurt all the time staying in the pocket.... injuries are unpredictable. He's been hit by plenty of 250 pound linebackers that are on their way to the NFL.

    By the way, I'm on record already stating that I'm not at all convinced that he's going to be the savior of any franchise. I've only felt that way about 2 or 3 QB's in the last decade. However, anybody that thinks he can't play in the NFL is a fool. Teams are trotting out QB's every week that aren't as talented as Manziel. People vastly overrate the talent in the NFL to begin with. There's not that many elite players in the NFL... the majority of them are borderline professionals themselves.

    Again, the point is that some of the knocks on him are legitimate, some are simply blowing smoke. Some of the comparisons made for him are insulting, because they don't account for anything he accomplished in college. Most of which hadn't been done before.
     
  28. Hungover

    Hungover Scout Team

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    TBH I thought the trolling was the hand size stuff - hey I hope he proves me wrong and makes the style he has works in the NFL because if he does he will be a one man highlight reel, unfortunately I just don't see it.
     
  29. xXwarXx

    xXwarXx Banned Hammered

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    Keenum had better production than him, maybe some of the best production in college football history. If accomplishments and production meant anything, he wouldn't of went undrafted.

    Every time someone gets in a debate about Manziel, it's he has the "it" factor, big hands, big feet, he's a winner, production, etc etc. It's all the stuff you say about a player when they lack real good things to talk about.

    Let's be honest here, he's a undersized qb, who's not that fast, for the NFL he has a average arm at best, he bails out of the pocket for no reason, and puts himself in trouble (ps good luck breaking that habit) he takes very hard hits, and this is all behind a oline that could protect him as well as he will ever be protected.

    His stats against the blitz and pressure are god awful. Seriously when he gets to the NFL, this guy is going to be in trouble. I don't see any way around it.

    And I'm not even getting to off field stuff where this guy does WTF he wants anyway. Could you imagine the difference in how people would talk about Manziel....... If he was black?
     
  30. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Perhaps once he realizes that he's an investment, he'll change his style. But there's no need to do that in college.

    His style is why Texas A&M was relevant in the SEC. He had to play that way to overcome a putrid defense every week that couldn't stop anybody and gives up nearly 40 points per game. He can't just manage the game from the pocket and allow his defense and running game to dominate opponents the way A.J. McCarron could. Manziel had to lay it all on the line every week.

    To me that's the beauty of college football, and why I enjoy it so much more than the watered down NFL. Nobody knows what he'll do as a professional, nor does it matter to me. Manziel was one of the most enjoyable to watch that has ever put on cleats. He'll always have that.
     
  31. Hungover

    Hungover Scout Team

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    I don't think some of what you have said is actually true. The NFL represents some of the absolute cream of the crop athletes alive on this Earth - to even make it to an NFL roster is a massive achievement and even some of those on practice squads are freakish athletes. When you see a player who stands out from a run-of-the-mill NFL standard you are seeing someone of awesome capability, because to rise above that standard of athlete shows truly outstanding quality and ability.
     
  32. Hungover

    Hungover Scout Team

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    That's an end-thread post right there. Pretty much bang on with no rebuttal possible. Well done sir.
     
  33. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    my biggest issue with manziels game is i dont' think he reads coverage all that well...i see a lot of one read and take off stuff and a lot of just throw it up there to evans and tell him to go get it despite the coverage being played...you wont get away with that kind of stuff in the pros...
     
  34. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    It's absolutely true. The majority of the players in the NFL are borderline professionals. That's why teams are always churning the bottom of their 53 man roster. They're always looking for upgrades. There's players starting all over the place in the NFL that wouldn't start on some college teams. For example, I'd guarantee you the Miami Dolphins haven't had a single player in their secondary the past 5 years that would've started at Alabama over Mark Barron, Robert Lester, Clinton-Dix, Dre Kirkpatrick, Dee Milliner, Kareem Jackson, and Javier Arenas.

    ---------- Post added at 10:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 AM ----------



    He doesn't leave the pocket for no reason... I assure you there's a reason. Blaine Gabbert left the pocket for no reason... hew threw with his eyes closed from inside the pocket.

    Keenum went undrafted and Manziel will be a 1st rounder because there's a clear difference in talent.

    There's also a difference between production in C-USA, and production in the SEC. That difference in talent is why one was in C-USA and the other in the SEC to begin with. It's just not a good comparison.
     
  35. Hungover

    Hungover Scout Team

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    ^ ^ Dee Milliner was the consensus no. 1 CB in last years draft and outstanding college corner, how did that help him versus the Fins last year? Benched what was it, three times in the one game? He looked lost in the NFL last year.

    The level between college and the NFL is massive - the reason there is churn there at the bottom of rosters is because they are choosing between one freakish athlete and another, and the reason why there are so many busts in the NFL. You can't just be a freakish athlete - you have to have something more that that, either an extra dimension of athletic freakishness or some other game-oriented talent.
     
  36. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I'm not about to compare the man to Case Keenum. I think that's folly. But I don't think he's the NFL prospect Russell Wilson was, either. Perhaps I rated Russell Wilson too low as a prospect (solid mid to high 2nd round). The way Wilson has played he should have been a #1 overall. But I also feel like if another Russell Wilson came out I would probably rate him about the same as I did Russell Wilson himself. And if Johnny Manziel is not the prospect Wilson was then why should he get a higher grade?

    Manziel WILL have to give himself up more in some situations...but I'm not sure it will help. First off with his style I'm not sure he'll do it. I'm not sure he's actually capable of it. I don't think he sees the field and sees timing-based reads from inside the pocket very well, and that's going to give him tendencies that put him out there as a raw steak for the lions on the defensive line.

    Here's a video which really addresses that point about vision within the pocket for me:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...anziel-is-falling-down-nfl-teams-draft-boards

    I do think Johnny leaves the pocket for no reason at times. Or rather he holds onto the football for an inordinate amount of time, which in turn forces him to leave the pocket under duress, for no good reason. Evaluating Mike Evans has been difficult at times because Evans seems to have a knack for getting open in his breaks with correct timing and you'd like to see him finish some of those catches and transition to RAC the way an NFL player will need to, but Manziel just doesn't see him or hit him. He waits and waits, gets his guys into scramble drills, climbs up or out of the pocket and searches for wide open windows into which to throw.

    Again these are tendencies he'll have to break at the next level and maybe he just gets there and changes. Maybe it'll be easy. As Awsi said maybe the talent will just find a way.

    But when you consider his significant off field issues and attitude problems, I don't think so. When the going gets tough (and it *will* get tough, at some point), I don't know that he's going to throw himself body and soul into the effort to move away from the player he was that got him the Heisman and all this acclaim in college. And he's going to have NO SHORTAGE of people whispering in his ear that it's his coaches, not him, that need to change. That he needs to get back to being "Johnny Football" and that his real problem, the REAL reason he's not succeeding in the NFL (even if just temporarily), is because he's not being "himself".

    Then he'll go back to the old habits. And he'll get K.I.A.
     
  37. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    The Dolphins have players that have been in the league for years that look lost. It's why they're a bad football team.

    While Miami is busy choosing between which freak athlete to play at right tackle between Tyson Clabo's and Marc Colombo's... neither would've started at Alabama over D.J. Fluker.
     
  38. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    These are the knocks that are legitimate. Again, he doesn't leave the pocket for no reason. There's a reason.

    As I said a long time ago. it's because he can't see the Choice/Switch routes develope that make up Sumlin's 4-Verts concept, that are staples of any variation of Run-and-Shoot. That's a reason to leave the pocket.

    Secondly, it's to make something happen because he missed the timing based reads from inside the pocket.

    Bottom line is he's worth the risk for any team that needs a quarterback. It's a QB league, and if you're not taking risks at the QB position, you're not trying to win. I think anything inside the top 20 is reaching for Manziel, but after that he's worth the gamble.
     
  39. Hungover

    Hungover Scout Team

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    DJ Fluker was drafted at no 11 overall playing as a college right tackle - if you can name 5 other college players drafted to be right tackles at the next level, who were drafted in the top 15 players overall in any draft in the last 15 years I will be very surprised. He was a home-run prospect and hence drafted as high as he was for his position. Comparing any RT to Fluker isn't that good because a RT drafted in the top 15 of the draft (even a weak one like last year) just doesn't come around that often.
     
  40. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I'll buy that.

    I think the Cowboys could take a bite at 16 if he does slide. But the consensus seems to be that he won't.
     

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