beanh8er
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Mike Shanahan ball control offense.
Luck, Griffin, & Wilson vs. Tannehill & Weeden: An Objective Analysis (Part I)
- Thread starter Shouright
- Start date
I guess I was surprised most by Griffin's lack of deep throws. That was a strength in college and there certainly were highlight plays this season so I sensed the exploration had been greater. Seems like a waste, frankly.
There's no doubt the offense was tailored around him, and to boost his confidence, so maybe Shanahan restricted the deep balls in conjuncture. The Redskins seemed to throw more deep balls in the one game Cousins started.
With Andrew Luck it was like the training wheels were off. He had such fantastic short designs at Stanford, and an offense built around a power running game, that I wondered how he'd transition to the NFL -- and an apparently weak team -- with those strengths absent. It was glaring from the outset that they'd simply wing the ball, and not worry too much about the inevitable interceptions. I think we should have taken more risks with Tannehill.
Nice thread. I'll look forward to part two.
There's no doubt the offense was tailored around him, and to boost his confidence, so maybe Shanahan restricted the deep balls in conjuncture. The Redskins seemed to throw more deep balls in the one game Cousins started.
With Andrew Luck it was like the training wheels were off. He had such fantastic short designs at Stanford, and an offense built around a power running game, that I wondered how he'd transition to the NFL -- and an apparently weak team -- with those strengths absent. It was glaring from the outset that they'd simply wing the ball, and not worry too much about the inevitable interceptions. I think we should have taken more risks with Tannehill.
Nice thread. I'll look forward to part two.
Keep making excuses. Bush was wide open and RT17 missed him, Fasano was wide open and rt17 missed him also. hartline was wide open another 3 times and RT17 missed him.
Rt17 isn't very good at completing long passes. has nothing to do with receivers. Its on him to make those throws. Will he get better? probably but right now this is not one of his strong suits.
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Thanks. Yeah, 1400 yards, 10 TD's and only 3 INT's really takes stats up to a different level. Without that we see a more indicative picture of how good a passer he can be.
The WR's make a big difference too. When RGIII throws into tripple coverage and his WR pulls it down in traffic and runs for a TD, that's not a good decision, but it looks great on the stat sheet. When RGIII throws a shallow crossing pattern thrown high over the middle and Garcon turns it into an 88 yard TD, that's a great play. When Tannehill throws the same ball on the same play to our speed WR, its an incompletion.
hoops
Tua time!
i can't understand how people here would not understand how rg3s stats would be padded from a completion percentage and the ability to strike deep with more efficiency...he's running an offense that is predicated entirely off the running game and then running pa off of the read option or the pistol formation...the defense is getting sucked up to the los in an effort to defend the run leaving him with two things wrs who are getting off the los cause of soft coverage on the outside unimpeded and allowed to get down the field and more single coverage looks down the field to take advantage of...there aren't many 2 deep safeties against that offense cause the running game just by the numbers tells you you have the advantage...
again the entire o is predicated off the read option and pistol looks he's throws the ball behind the los on bubble screens etc more than any other qb in the game in that offense...when the lbs get sucked up off that inside run action he steps back after keeping the ball and bangs you either vertical over the top when the safety bites also on the run action or on routes breaking into the middle of the field over the sucked up lbs and in front of the safety...
the only thing that keeps that offense from going belly up is rg3's acceleration and speed...you must account for it on every snap...which means if your de gets nosy and bites on that inside action rg3 will keep and run around edge on that soft corner and he's into your secondary before you know it...takes a lot of discipline to defend...it also means a lot of contact for your qb
there's two reasons that rg3s numbers look so good...he has terrific vertical accuracy and accuracy period when he has good looks but also cause that offense gives him so many good looks to work with and single coverage to attack...he's not seeing any shell coverages and guys able to drop into passing lanes etc because first and foremost you must always account for his speed and acceleration in the running game...
as for russell wilson you should be able to watch a seahawks game and realize that offense is pretty dumbed down...he takes what he's given underneath rarely throws down the seam in the middle of the field or the gap b/t the lbs and safeties and bangs you vertical off pa when you get nosy against the run...he also and i'm not making excuses just calling it like i see it gets an awful lot of help from his oc with play design and giving him easy throws with rub routes and picks and the use of motion and the way they line up...especially in the red zone...that oc is huge to wilsons game
brandon weeden...nothing like an overaged limited athlete and that may be kind...that can't get away from pressure and doesn't do a very good job of setting up his protections presnap...he's taken more contact in one nfl game than he took his entire career at okla st and it shows...he's got great vertical accuracy inconsistent intermediate and underneath ball placement and accuracy and will throw the ball into coverage...not to mention he's a finished product...i'm damn glad that's not my qb...
you don't need statistical analysis to figure these things out...
again the entire o is predicated off the read option and pistol looks he's throws the ball behind the los on bubble screens etc more than any other qb in the game in that offense...when the lbs get sucked up off that inside run action he steps back after keeping the ball and bangs you either vertical over the top when the safety bites also on the run action or on routes breaking into the middle of the field over the sucked up lbs and in front of the safety...
the only thing that keeps that offense from going belly up is rg3's acceleration and speed...you must account for it on every snap...which means if your de gets nosy and bites on that inside action rg3 will keep and run around edge on that soft corner and he's into your secondary before you know it...takes a lot of discipline to defend...it also means a lot of contact for your qb
there's two reasons that rg3s numbers look so good...he has terrific vertical accuracy and accuracy period when he has good looks but also cause that offense gives him so many good looks to work with and single coverage to attack...he's not seeing any shell coverages and guys able to drop into passing lanes etc because first and foremost you must always account for his speed and acceleration in the running game...
as for russell wilson you should be able to watch a seahawks game and realize that offense is pretty dumbed down...he takes what he's given underneath rarely throws down the seam in the middle of the field or the gap b/t the lbs and safeties and bangs you vertical off pa when you get nosy against the run...he also and i'm not making excuses just calling it like i see it gets an awful lot of help from his oc with play design and giving him easy throws with rub routes and picks and the use of motion and the way they line up...especially in the red zone...that oc is huge to wilsons game
brandon weeden...nothing like an overaged limited athlete and that may be kind...that can't get away from pressure and doesn't do a very good job of setting up his protections presnap...he's taken more contact in one nfl game than he took his entire career at okla st and it shows...he's got great vertical accuracy inconsistent intermediate and underneath ball placement and accuracy and will throw the ball into coverage...not to mention he's a finished product...i'm damn glad that's not my qb...
you don't need statistical analysis to figure these things out...
Thanks for your contribution. :)
AgentXof12
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I can accept that BOTH passes are missed passes but both hit the WR in the hands. Re-watch that tape ... same pass and it's a ball that hits his WR in the hands in the same spot really ... not a perfect pass by either QB, but not a missed pass either, it's high over the middle but it hits the WR's hands just like RGIII's pass does, it's just that our WR sucked and Pierre Garcon is excellent. Stats record that as 88 yards and a TD for RGIII, and 0 yards and an Incomplete Pass for Tannehill, but the QB performance is the same for both rookies.
Friendly amendment not accepted. I stand behind what I wrote originally.
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I think that 5 years down the road all of these rookie QB's will have competent WR's around them and we will know what their passing abilities really are. At that point an apples to apples comparison is possible. But, I think too many variables are in flux at the moment to get any definite answers yet, but all of these rookies are showing good signs.
IMHO, Tannehill has shown to have the most accuracy of all of these QB's, which frankly shocks me. He routinely nails very small windows and consistently places the ball where only his WR can catch it. Sure, he threw 12 picks, but looking at his throws, he didn't have many INT's dropped, lol. In the game against us Luck had 2 sure-fire INT's dropped and a 3rd possible INT dropped. Tannehill never threw the ball where it could be intercepted that game. Of those 12 picks, several bounced off the WR/TE's hands or chest to become INT's, which obviously isn't the QB's fault. A few more were batted at the line of scrimmage and intercepted, which arguably are the QB's fault, but not the type of thing that happens very often in most seasons.
What you are looking at for rookie QB's are their accuracy and decision making. Remarkably few of Tannehill's INT's are inaccurate throws. Some are bad decisions, which is to be expected from a rookie who only started 19 collegiate games at QB. But, far less poor decision making than I or most people expected.
Looking back at Tannehill's INT's, some stand out. Some were not his fault, such as Legadu Naanee quitting on a route leads to an INT. I recall Fasano being blanketed by a LB, Tannehill threading the needle just out of the LB's grasp and hitting Fasano on the chest and the ball bouncing off Fasano's chest into the LB's hands for an INT. Some were his fault, like the multiple blocked passes intercepted against JJ Watt and the Texans on opening day of his rookie season. The worst decision I recall was his opening drive of the 2nd half in the first Jets game where he tried to do too much after Reggie Bush had gone down injured on the last play of the first half ... the hot-sauce injury. Tannehill looked like a rookie then, but didn't repeat that mistake.
The lack of TD's is mostly because we lack red zone targets and the ability to run in the red zone. We also lack playmakers with break-away speed to score from outside the red zone. Sure, one broken coverage TD to Hartline and one sensational run by Reggie stand out, but we seriously lacked those type of plays. I think this offseason we'll stock up on explosive WR's and red zone threats at WR and TE.
IMHO, Tannehill has shown to have the most accuracy of all of these QB's, which frankly shocks me. He routinely nails very small windows and consistently places the ball where only his WR can catch it. Sure, he threw 12 picks, but looking at his throws, he didn't have many INT's dropped, lol. In the game against us Luck had 2 sure-fire INT's dropped and a 3rd possible INT dropped. Tannehill never threw the ball where it could be intercepted that game. Of those 12 picks, several bounced off the WR/TE's hands or chest to become INT's, which obviously isn't the QB's fault. A few more were batted at the line of scrimmage and intercepted, which arguably are the QB's fault, but not the type of thing that happens very often in most seasons.
What you are looking at for rookie QB's are their accuracy and decision making. Remarkably few of Tannehill's INT's are inaccurate throws. Some are bad decisions, which is to be expected from a rookie who only started 19 collegiate games at QB. But, far less poor decision making than I or most people expected.
Looking back at Tannehill's INT's, some stand out. Some were not his fault, such as Legadu Naanee quitting on a route leads to an INT. I recall Fasano being blanketed by a LB, Tannehill threading the needle just out of the LB's grasp and hitting Fasano on the chest and the ball bouncing off Fasano's chest into the LB's hands for an INT. Some were his fault, like the multiple blocked passes intercepted against JJ Watt and the Texans on opening day of his rookie season. The worst decision I recall was his opening drive of the 2nd half in the first Jets game where he tried to do too much after Reggie Bush had gone down injured on the last play of the first half ... the hot-sauce injury. Tannehill looked like a rookie then, but didn't repeat that mistake.
The lack of TD's is mostly because we lack red zone targets and the ability to run in the red zone. We also lack playmakers with break-away speed to score from outside the red zone. Sure, one broken coverage TD to Hartline and one sensational run by Reggie stand out, but we seriously lacked those type of plays. I think this offseason we'll stock up on explosive WR's and red zone threats at WR and TE.
Just watched the video on this page:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...ngton-redskins-start-place-robert-griffin-iii
...and what Mark Schlereth said about RGIII reminded me of some of the stats in the OP here.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...ngton-redskins-start-place-robert-griffin-iii
...and what Mark Schlereth said about RGIII reminded me of some of the stats in the OP here.
LoneStarPhin
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Can you explain to me how you know what they were "asked" to run???? Looks more like you just analyzed what they actually threw or did not.
There is a big difference between the two. There are a dozen variables every play that dictate how the play comes out- including audibles, coverage, line protection, quality of snaps, first down position, game situation/scores, etc....
If a guy is asked to throw it deep and offense is more designed to throw deep, but he continually checks down, are you concluding he was asked to do less and he performed it very capably? Just not sure how you reconcile that.
There is a big difference between the two. There are a dozen variables every play that dictate how the play comes out- including audibles, coverage, line protection, quality of snaps, first down position, game situation/scores, etc....
If a guy is asked to throw it deep and offense is more designed to throw deep, but he continually checks down, are you concluding he was asked to do less and he performed it very capably? Just not sure how you reconcile that.
If you're talking postseason, Matt Ryan is 1-4 in the pros (1-5 incl college), has scored a total of 24pts over 12 2nd half quarters (14 if you want to include the ACC championship) and his playoff YPA is 6.6 since according to you that's an important precursor of future success. Not so hot eh? So if the brass ring is the prize, I dunno that he should be included in the top echelon. As far as Luck goes, I did a study yesterday in response to YPAs, that he's a different QB this year and last with Reggie Wayne. Over the 4 games he's missed Reggie, he's beaten TN twice and lost to 2 winning teams while running up a 6.1ypa "after Reggie" while by comparison over the last 4 games with Tannehill still missing Gibson, Keller, and a non bi-polar running game, Tannehill is 3-1 with a 7.2YPA. One can only wonder what would have been if Ireland had signed REggie last season when he professed a desire to come home. I will grant you that Luck has demonstrated more of the clutch gene than Tannehill is beginning to exhibit, and none of the choke gene that Ryan has demonstrated when it's balls to the wall or you're one and done for the season.
tcdrover
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Yeah, that's my POV as well.
If Wilson or Luck had Wallace on their teams their numbers would be much bigger is my guess.
The O-line plays a big factor, the Defense and how the team competes as well. The coaches style on play calling will factor in,
but there were many plays this season where guys were open deep and Ryan did not have time to throw to them or
didn't find them for whatever reason.
" And who was asked to throw the ball downfield the least? That's right: the rookie QB with the highest QB rating of them all, and the second highest QB rating in the league at 102.4, none other than RGIII (a preview of "Part II" of this thread)."
This is kind of screwy logic. The QB rating will in large part reflect the kind of throws the QB makes successfully. Short passes are higher percentage throws. We don't know what they are being asked to do
but we can see WRs running 30 yards down the field...
WHATT? Mike Wallace is not a deep threat?