Merged:Saban-Defense to undergo major overhaul?/Type of defense we'd like to play...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by jbond, Jan 21, 2005.

  1. jbond

    jbond Pro Bowler

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    "...type of defense that we'd like to play"

    Regarding the defense, Saban said that it "may be the time that we need to get a little younger and look for some younger, big, strong, physical guys that we've lost during the past that may be able to benefit the type of defense that we'd like to play."

    http://www.palmbeachpost.com/dolphins/content/sports/epaper/2005/01/21/a1c_dolphins_0121.html

    I guess that means Seau's pretty much gone (not really a new thought) and I am guessing that he'd like to really run a 3-4 but knows we don't have the size for it....and would like to beef up our DTs and LBs to switch to a different defensive scheme during his period of "patience" to "rebuild" this team with a foundation for the future.....will be interesting over the next 2 years to see what moves he makes to start getting 'younger' and 'bigger' on Defense..."that we lost during the past"...is he referencing Shula's 3-4 and then JJ's/Dave's use of a 4-3 ?
     
  2. igor79

    igor79 Seasoned Veteran

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    beef up our DTs? you have any idea how big lary chester is?
     
  3. jbond

    jbond Pro Bowler

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    ok, meant DE's as they are not the typical mold for DE's.
     
  4. Shouright

    Shouright Banned Hammered

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    Might be talking about Ogunleye.
     
  5. jbond

    jbond Pro Bowler

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    our defense relies on big run stuffers and lighter, quicker, more agile pass rushers, and smaller then avg. linebackers., 2 shut-down man-to-man cornerbacks, and a couple of safeties to shore up the run (if not contained by the DTs & to help the LBs out) and to help out on coverage depending on the down. i.e. the reason why JT is so great is because of his speed and agility. Put him in a 3-4 defense and he'd realistically get tied up a bit more often at the line (now please don't turn this around and make it sound like I don't like JT or his skill or ability). That's why the 4-3 works well for us. For us to go to a 3-4 we'd need a bigger defense up front (as a whole) and in the middle.
     
  6. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime FinHeaven Elite

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    Saban-Defense to undergo major overhaul?



    http://www.palmbeachpost.com/dolphins/content/sports/epaper/2005/01/21/a1c_dolphins_0121.html






    http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/football/10696288.htm

    I think these statements are very revealing .To me it looks like the Defense will have a major overhaul ..Notice the statement doesnt include speed in the qualities he will be looking for.(It could be an oversight)

    It also looks like we will be losing many of our defensive stars either through trade or cuts.Who do you think will be the victims and for what reason?What type of defense do you think we will have.Will it be modelled after the Patriots defense ? Do you think there is any possibility we will go defense in the Draft rather than offense as everyone is anticipating ?
     
  7. Bopkin02

    Bopkin02 Seasoned Veteran

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    The first that comes to mind, obviously, is Surtain. We all know his questionable status. I don't think JT, Madison or Zach can be cut/traded because of cap hits, unless Saban cuts so many other players that they can absorb a big hit. Seau is another obvious choice.
     
  8. Al13

    Al13 Don´t mess with Clint

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    what do you think that means guys ? surtain gone ? he is not that old yet, i think for sure seau is gone, bowens too, thomas i dunno
     
  9. so-long-Ricky

    so-long-Ricky Seasoned Veteran

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    Surtain is still a solid player on the team. That being said, I still think he'll be released (reading between the lines on what Saban said) unless he takes a pay cut.
     
  10. finsnchips

    finsnchips 2005 FinHeaven GM League Champion!!

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    Surtain will have to take a big paycut. Saban may prefer the second or third round pick we could likely get for him.
     
  11. Dudeman

    Dudeman Coolness

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    it was an obvious oversight, because I think it was on the Cold Pizza thing that he said he wanted younger, faster guys
     
  12. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    he must be planning to get a bunch of draft picks $$$, I think we cut Seau, Bowens, Chester and Konrad, trade Surtain and Madison and we can get 3 more first day picks and be under the cap maybe, we might have to do some more
     
  13. finsnchips

    finsnchips 2005 FinHeaven GM League Champion!!

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    why would we cut chester?

    and trading madison would cripple us.
     
  14. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime FinHeaven Elite

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    Am I wrong to assume that short acive LBs such as Moore,Pope and even Zach might have to find new teams eventually when it makes cap sense..?
     
  15. touborg

    touborg Board Linebacker

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    I agree. I think Bowens might be out aswell.
     
  16. KB21

    KB21 A True Fan

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    Why do people keep thinking that Nick Saban wants to run a base 3-4 defense when all that he has ever run is the 4-3?
     
  17. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Chester is getting old and is not part of the future plus cutting him would free up some space, trading Madison could get us a 3rd at least and then we can draft Pac-man Jones who is younger plus him and Poole would be a good combo for years
     
  18. finsnchips

    finsnchips 2005 FinHeaven GM League Champion!!

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    Chester has just turned 29, and he is a DT/NT. At least 5 more years in him.

    I like Pac-Man, but would be annoyed if we used a 1st round pick on a CB.
     
  19. Waldop

    Waldop Professional Water Boy!!

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    Larry Chester is one of those older guys that get injured way too often!! He's great when he's able to play, but that's seem to be a rarity!!
     
  20. BlueFin

    BlueFin Seer of Visions Finheaven VIP

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    I'd say linebackers and DE's, if a switch to a 3-4 is his goal.

    Look at the size of the linebackers in Pittsburgh and New England.
     
  21. ErroneousFlint

    ErroneousFlint A True Fan

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    pope is getting peanuts. no. youre wrong to assume pope's or moore's departure. zach will be traded after june for future draft picks. unless if im missing something.
     
  22. BlueFin

    BlueFin Seer of Visions Finheaven VIP

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    I think theres little doubt some big salaries will soon be going away.

    I think what he made clear is patching up the team for a run next year is not what resides in his plans......he will get rid of the overpaid and those that don't fit the the profile of players he wants and start finding HIS type of players.
     
  23. Agua

    Agua Fighting the media, one lie at a time

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    Baseless rumors taking on a life of their own?
     
  24. FinFan013

    FinFan013 72' FOREVER

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    madison will not be going ANYWHERE...no matter how much it might be better for the team it has be said time after time it will cost way more to cut or trade HIM!!!
     
  25. jbond

    jbond Pro Bowler

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    excerpted from http://www.palmbeachpost.com/dolphins/content/sports/epaper/2005/01/01/a1f_fins_0101.html

    -------
    Will it? It's hard to say for sure  there's no direct evidence that Saban is planning to go in that direction. After all, as a defensive coordinator with the Cleveland Browns and at his collegiate head-coaching jobs at Michigan State and Louisiana State, Saban ran the 4-3.

    But there is some circumstantial evidence that suggests a changing wind could be coming to the Dolphins' defense:

    • The Belichick Influence: It's well documented that Saban is a disciple of New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick, who ran the 3-4 defense as coordinator for the New York Giants and Patriots and uses it to perfection with the world champions. The two are extremely close, so Saban has noticed the success Belichick has had with it. And when Belichick told Saban to run the 4-3 in Cleveland, it was because Belichick was unwilling to dismantle his team to fit the 3-4. Belichick certainly learned a lesson from that. Saban probably did as well.

    edit: of course...we're about to dismantle 1/2 the team now and our D is aging already

    • Tigers have tried it: At LSU, Saban toyed with the 3-4 defense, mostly on third downs. Only a handful of college teams use the defense full time because it's complicated and requires certain players who are hard to pinpoint in recruiting. In the NFL, Saban wouldn't have that problem.

    edit: no reason not to try it...

    • It's back in vogue: After a brief disappearance, the 3-4 is back and highly successful. Six AFC teams use it, including New England, Baltimore, Pittsburgh and San Diego.

    edit: ...and who is it that made the playoffs again this year?

    If Saban does bring the 3-4 back to South Florida  the Dolphins used it under Don Shula  Bates wouldn't be needed. His specialty is the press-coverage 4-3 scheme the Dolphins currently use, which stars Thomas. Critics say the 5-foot-11 Thomas only can play in a 4-3, where large tackles take up blockers to allow Thomas to make plays. In the 3-4, the linebackers are exposed.

    edit: his reference to the 'defense' that used to be used here...

    "They haven't even seen me play in that system," Thomas said. "I haven't had big guys in front of me (with injuries to Tim Bowens and Larry Chester) and I still make plays."

    But even if Thomas stays, the 3-4 could be the right move for the Dolphins. The defensive tackle position has been ravaged by injury, and Miami has proved to be deep with young linebackers like Derrick Pope, Eddie Moore and Brendon Ayanbadejo. And defensive end Jason Taylor would join them as a rush outside linebacker.

    "We'll make it work," Taylor said.

    Saban would need to find a run-stuffing nose tackle  the most important position in the 3-4  since Bowens, who has missed almost the entire season with a back injury, can't take the wear-and-tear any longer. And defensive ends Jay Williams and David Bowens would need to forget about the quarterback and learn to just take up blockers.
     
  26. BlueFin

    BlueFin Seer of Visions Finheaven VIP

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    You better ready yourself for one thing, Saban WILL be unloading players with huge salaries who are getting to close to the end who won't be a part of the 3 or 4 year plan.

    In some cases it may even be a cap hit this year, thats all part of cleaning up the mess so you can build it right.
     
  27. NorFlaFin

    NorFlaFin PowerHungryMo'fo

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    It's cause many "fans" want Miami to morph into the Patriots of the south.
     
  28. mike_vee

    mike_vee Seasoned Veteran

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    i think everyone forgot about our buddy jay !!! he's a goner for sure... how much does he cost against our cap if we keep him ??? i don't remember but i think it's in the 7 to 8 mil range.... anyways, jay's got to go, along with some other's of course .
     
  29. csabe

    csabe Pro Bowler

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    Chester & Madison will be on the team next year for sure.
     
  30. jbond

    jbond Pro Bowler

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    something interesting on 3-4 defenses taken from http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-chargers010705&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

    Six teams in the NFL primarily use the 3-4 scheme – three defensive linemen, backed by four linebackers. Five of those six put up brick walls against the run, specifically the Steelers (first in the NFL in rush defense), Chargers (third), Jets (fifth), Patriots (sixth) and Ravens (ninth).
     
  31. Surferosa

    Surferosa Run to Daylight

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    Is it safe to discuss the 3-4 now without getting reprimanded by the Board Police?
     
  32. LarryFinFan

    LarryFinFan Left So Fla, never the Fins...

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    Justa thought about this.. like many here, it is obvious that we will be converting at least to a form of 3-4 defense or a hybrid to suit the personnel we have until the right players can be obtained, but IF Seau wants to come back and will restructure, he fits quite well in that style defense...Again, he would certainly have to restructure and accept a reduced role in the defense, but his size and speed are ideal for that defense.
     
  33. Mr Fan

    Mr Fan The return of tradition

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    Hehehehe, I for one am getting a little tired of seeing them!

    A little note for the police: It would be difficult to be worse than 4-12 :eek:
     
  34. GridironCanuck

    GridironCanuck Starter

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    There have been people mentioning ZT leaving Miami one way or the other. I think that Saban knows enough to leave him and JT alone. In those two guys lies the heart and sould of the team as well as the identity of the Miami Dolphins. I would be extremely displeased if they let Zach go. I honestly couldn't see it. IMO he needs to retire a Dolphin. The guy has stuck through it all and has remained true to the team despite many ups and downs.
     
  35. minus

    minus Perennial All-Pro Hammered

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    JT wouldn't be a good fit on 3-4 defense.I'm guessing that Saban will be use a mixed system that based on 4-3 but might twist things around through out the game.I just don't see him making a complete switch to 3-4 unless he is planning on cutting players like JT and Zach,which would destroy the cap for next three years.
     
  36. Drfletcherdc

    Drfletcherdc A True Fan

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    I think Bowens will be back at a reduced rate if he recovered enough from his injury. I haven't heard anything about him retiring. Chester and Bowens are huge run stuffers and the drop off from last year to this year was a result of them not playing. If we play 3-4 or 4-3 they should still be a huge part of the defense.
     
  37. MadDawg020

    MadDawg020 SmartGuy

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    Surtain is gone for sure.
     
  38. Terror

    Terror Owner of the TerrorShop

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    With a 3-4, I definetly see us moving D-Bo and JT to linebackers and probably bring up Jay Williams on end and pick up another through FA. I reallly like the 3-4, I was hoping maybe we could bring in Bentley and/ or Ben Taylor from the Browns considering we have (I believe) their linebackers coach. I think they could fit.
     
  39. arsenal

    arsenal Beastin'

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    thanks to a question i just asked to our good friend clumpy... trading madison would only add about 950k to our salary cap... i dont think that would "cripple" us...
     
  40. TheMadPorpoise

    TheMadPorpoise Banned Hammered

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    The only problem with Chester is he's had trouble staying healthy.
     

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