Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by DKphin, May 11, 2017.
**** off Armando. Seriously, shut the **** up.
Not clicking on that garbage. It's not wise to undermine and demean those who decide your relevance and revenue.
Mando sucks. I remember him popping up on the Pro Football Talk radio show in the middle of our slow start last season. He sounded drunk and took plenty of shots at how typically stupid the team had been constructed and how horrible our outlook was. He is a clueless (I use four-letter words).
It will be interesting if the Chargers, who took Lamp AND Feeney, make a jump this year. I liked a lot of guys in the draft and would have been happy if we went a couple of different directions. Part of me wanted us to key in on the Oline and build it like Dallas did with theirs. If the Chargers make strides and we end up needing a QB because we got Tannehill killed then I will know who made the right choice or not.
I haven't read the article but after reading these few posts I will come out and say I was agreeing with Armando after our first few games. Rewind to last year we let our key free agents walk in their prime years, had a very medocre draft after Tunsil and Wake was recuperating from a torn achilles tendon. Gase a rookie coach was still playing Dallas Thomas and Turner at guard and we had no idea the runner we had Jay Ajayi. A 3 13 season looked realistic and 5 11 not to bad. What we learned since then is you have the status quo way and if that doesn't work you have the Gase way. Gase cleaned up last years guard issue, instilled some confidence in RT, discovered Jay Ajayi snd Wake got healthy. Pretty cool and this year so far it appears he is putting his mark on the draft. So yeah Gase figures out whats not working fairly quickly and then does it the Gase way. Not sure whats he up to at guard but the guy probably has a pretty decent plan
I didn't realize the Chargers snagged Lamp and Feeney. Very shrewd moves. They've needed OL help for years.
Their next QB is going to be set up nicely with Mike Williams, Melvin Gordon, Hunter Henry Keenan Allen and the aforementioned young guards.
FWIW, that article was garbage. Probably why I changed my train of thought to the Chargers almost immediately.
Great point. The Chargers went against the grain somewhat in putting together an offensive draft. Looks like they got the two best guards in addition to Williams at wide receiver in R1. Also ended up with Desmond King. Very impressive draft and will be interesting to see if they can challenge in a very tough division.
I said for three months on this board, that Miami needed to address G EARLY in the draft ... and I said for months, that if Forrest Lamp dropped to us, we should take him and just solidify that spot and get it over with. Well ... he dropped to us, and we passed on him.
Now I'm glad we did address guard in the draft and hopefully Isaac Asiata can work hard be a badass guard for us, and solidify one side of our line. He seems lke a good kid so far from what I have seen and has his head on straight ... but I swear, if we get guard play again reminiscent of the days of Dallas Thomas and Billy Turner again, the Dolphins organization can expect a lot of complaining from the Phin fans, and deservedly so ... and Ill be the ones who said "I told you so, you should have taken Lamp".
San Diego grabbed him in the 2nd round, 16 picks after Miami picked. San Diego also landed their game changing DE last year, and has a pretty solid defense already in place. I would like to have better guards, but I am glad we got a pass rushing DE in the first round, I am glad we didn't over pay Zieter or Leary this offseason. The market was crazy this offseason, as there were not many o-lineman available in FA, and the draft had a serious lack of talent at o-line. Not many teams have spent first round picks on guards whom they didn't hope could be tackles as some point, nor do many teams pay guards tackle money. To put in perspective we waited to the 5th round to grab a guard, and we got the 9th guard in the draft. The middle of the o-line is going to be fine if Pouncey can stay on the field, and if he can't they will be average to slightly below. I have faith that Gase knows what he is doing. He rated Bushrod as his 2nd best o-lineman after scrutinizing the tape from last year, and rating every player. I am going to say he is more qualified than PFF to make that call.
We have enough competition
I still worry about the guards but love that we drafted Asiata
You can never go wrong with Bruce
Armando should listen to his own advice and shut the **** up. Seriously, who writes that steaming pile of crap?
Dolphins need another guard regardless of what they publicly say. Or what they **** out of Armando to say.
Fins Up Cool Kid!
Ted Larsen has to be one of the most overlooked/underrated player in Fins history - not because he's that good, but because everyone thinks he's HORRIBLE. Not expecting him to go to the Pro Bowl, but I still think most of the board doesn't even expect him to be starting. The dude is gonna be a lock to start all season and will give us a solid performance without missing time or putting the line in flux.
Apparently Bushrod was good? I don't know... but if Asiata is as good as everyone is expecting/making him out to be, then we will have a good competition and seemingly someone ready when Pouncey gets put on IR in ~week 5.
I love that Armando is palpably more jaded and skeptical than ever in his latest banal narrative, passive hate phuck piece...He's due for an epic Gary Oldham-esque meltdown somewhere in between these don't shoot the messenger articles.
Honestly Bushrod did not stop the offensive progress, that's exactly what we were getting before was guard play so bad its stopped our offense.
They are hoping he looks better in the second year if not he is a GREAT guy to have in the locker room so I get the deal.
Personally I think the Rookie and Bishrod start and Larsen is here as Pouncey insurance
And they also have Orlando Franklin, who could end up a casualty with a 4.8M cap hit. Played for Gase in Denver. He was someone many fans wanted a few years back.
I'll stop worrying about the guards (and the line as a whole), when Ryan gets longer than 3 seconds to throw the ball. Or when the RB's actually get a hole to run through rather than making their yards on whatever they can find. We got one draft pick who may be really good this or next year. Switching our RT to LT (which he probably can do fine, but not without a learning curve). A center who's a question mark on his health right now (and on-going). The others are questionable at best. To say we are following the "Patriots" way of putting low cost no-names and it turning into gold sounds great, but why then does it only seem to work for them and nobody else? Let's just say, while hoping for the best, I'm worried about what the worst may look like.
All the more important that we beat them Wk.2 before they have a chance to jell. That was a good draft for them.
Does this "stop worrying" include counting on a healthy, strong, in-shape Pouncey in the middle of the OL? Mr. Unicorn Pouncey that spends the off-season working out (instead of rehabbing a degenerating hip), getting strong in base, powerful in core, and then starts the bulk of the games year in and year out? Cause if we're counting on Pouncey -- the mythical four years ago Pouncey form -- and if we're counting on a rookie OG with enough serious issues to drop him to the 5th round -- and if we're counting on a journeyman castoff OG signed in FA -- and another journeyman OL signed last year who played mediocre at best in the middle -- doesn't this sound like another year of the same thing? Minus Thomas and Turner, thank goodness. So perhaps that means not the bottom ten percent in protection. Maybe we'll be in bottom twenty percent... which is an improvement. Maybe that's what they mean by "stop worrying." Seriously.
Could have traded down with ATL and gotten a 3rd+ and still drafted Lamp. 3 picks in rounds 2 & 3 to address defense. Could have Lamp + Asiata and then 1 DE, 1 LB, 1 CB in the 2nd and 3rd. That said, if the FO is super sold on Harris as a stud pass rusher, its always an important position to have elite talent at. Wake's abilities will, i presume, someday diminish (idk, he could be superman). Gotta sack Brady to ever win the AFC.
would have been a nice young line, and we would have had an extra 3rd and likely 5th.
Everyone is freaking out about protection for Ryan, and ignoring that the core of this group allowed a career low in sacks last season for Ryan. 30 sacks allowed, and the bulk was the first 5 games when we were unsettled on the line and Thomas and Turner were playing. I don't see us being worse than last year in pass protection. We had an undrafted free agent playing center for 12 games, and two guys starting at G who had never taken snaps at G in their career.
Where this group fell short was run blocking. I don't have a lot a hope this group will emerge as a the best run blocking team, but there should be an improvement. Larsen is a natural guard, and Bushrod should be more fluid in his 2nd season. Its going to come down to how many games Pouncey plays. I also am not counting on Asiata, but run blocking is where he excelled, so if we struggle hopefully he can add a charge.
Pouncy must have some elite ability that we just don't understand, the O-line was dominant when he was there. Communication, intelligence, grit - I don't know what but he put it together in the muck. Bushrod, maybe he's one of those guys Gase has to be careful what button's he pushes with him.
I am counting on Asiata. IMHO, he is the best guard we have on our roster now that he's signed. Is he perfect? No. But he is going to be a solid pass protector and _by far_ our best run blocking OL.
I wouldn't say I'm happy about our pass protection, but you're right, after those first 5 games where the team needed to learn the system, we did get OK pass protection, and went on a massive winning streak in large part because the offense came together. But, we saw a totally dominant team when we could run the ball. IMHO, that's the key to the Dolphins going from a mid-range team with a chance for the playoffs to a strong team that expects the playoffs every year.
Also, we have far too many good players and high paychecks for this defense to be anything but good. I expect a major improvement this year or a major re-alignment of our defense.
We may or may not win 10 games again ... but this team will be improved. Our defense was upgraded at every level (Harris and some depth along the DL, McMillan, Timmons at LB, and McDonald, Tankersley and health of Jones, Maxwell and Howard). Our offense looked good after the initial learning of the system, and I expect to pick up where we left off last year.
The OL is the only thing holding this offense back from making the jump from decent to dominant. After correctly addressing the defense in the draft this year, I'm expecting the OL to be addressed next year. James, who to this point has underperformed, will either get a big contract or be replaced. Bushrod, who has filled in admirably, but is old and a liability in the run game, will need to be replaced. Pouncey, who has missed far too many games because of injury, is reaching that prove-it time as well. That's 3 starters along an OL that should realistically feature an anchor LT (Tunsil) and a solid LG (Asiata) who are both young. I'd call this a transition year for our OL, because I'm expecting a lot of big decisions to be made about our OL next offseason.
At this point I'd rather have Clifford Franklin.
(Not really. I just can't see that name without thinking of Clifford Franklin, who was played by Orlando Jones.)
It was much better than ok. We gave up 13 sacks in the last 11 games. 17 sacks in the first 5 games. Even both together 17 qbs were sacked more than Ryan. If we look at the last 11 games our o line was elite in pass protection.
We have no idea what Isaac is going to be. Playing for Utah is no indication of what he will be. Hopefully he is lights out and topples Larsen or Bushrod, but you can't count on it.
Pouncey is never going to make a full season again. I just don't see it happening and frankly I'm worried about it.
They need to sign someone for depth at center and I'm not as worried about the guards as I am Pouncey.
Agree. I think Mangold would be a perfect sign as insurance. If Pouncey doesn't miss any games super. If he does there is a back up and we can move on next year.
Mangold couldn't finish the season last year due to ankle injury and needed surgery. He only brings similar concerns of durability and age.
I'd take Mangold but not at his salary he was making. He'd be perfect as a one year stop gap insurance policy. He was set to make 6m in salary and a 2.5m roster bonus.
So at 8.5m no thanks but at something reasonable let's say 5m range for one year. Sure why not.
You aren't signing an all pro in may. He could give 5-8 games if needed at a much higher level than Ubrick or Steen. Being so late he would probably sign for 1 million with a chance to earn more with incentives.
I would love to be able to fool my self in to thinking Pouncey can return this season, as he is still dominating when on the field, but I think 5-10 games is the best we can hope for from him.
I'm not counting on Pouncey at all, but camaraderie and continuity are extremely important on the o-line and Mangold doesn't bring that either. I'd rather gun for a slightly less talented young player that ensures those factors. Steen is a candidate for that role even though he is limited athletically.
That statistic takes on more meaning if you look at the average time Tannehill held onto the ball. He got the ball out of his hands very quickly, which helps the OL immensely. I'm not trying to undermine the pass protection, which definitely improved. But we ran many more screens and predominantly short passes so Tannehill could get the ball out quickly. While we did take a good amount of deep throws, I didn't see a ton of intermediate throws.
Like I said, the pass protection was OK. Viewing the games, I'm not going to agree with you that it was good. This may be one where we are best off agreeing to disagree. You've made some good points.
I don't particularly like what's happened at the guard/center spots. That doesn't mean I'm all about paying guys $10 million a year as free agents, but even so.
The whole Jermon Bushrod graded as our second best OL thing is a total joke. It was lawyering at its absolute finest. Yes I'm quite sure Bushrod may have had the 2nd fewest mental or technical mistakes. But any grading system that says he turned in a better performance than Mike Pouncey, Ja'Wuan James, Laremy Tunsil, or Branden Albert, needs to be ripped up and thrown in the trash.
That's what bugs me about the OL plans this off season. When I see things like that, I sense delusion.
Delusion on the OL has been an epidemic in Miami for a long time.
RT is big-time lucky that he's only had his ACL and MCL partially snapped. And his head still in one piece.
Most QBs would be broken -- mentally and physically -- by now.
Good teams are strong up the middle. On D and O. Miami has been perennially weak on both.
And every off-season is the same: delusional smoke and mirrors thinking that is based on Unicorns like Pouncey (A very healthy mythical beast) and Leprechauns like Bushrod.
It's not an opinion the job the o line did in pass blocking was phenomenal after we cut Turner and Thomas. If you start week 6-17 no o line in the NFL gave up fewer sacks than the Miami Dolphins. Yes, even Tom Brady was sacked more times in the time period. Matt Moore was sacked only 1 times in the three games he started. For the line to hold up for 2nd string qb makes it so much more impressive. To give the line more credit 6 of 13 sacks Miami allowed from week 6-17 were in the LA and San Fran games. If you remember Albert missed most of the LA game and the San Fran game, and Tunsil missed the San Fran game, and of course Pouncey was out as well.
On the other hand Ryan had his career high in ypa, and was on pace to set a career high in 40+ yard passes as he had 11 in 13 starts while his career best 13 in 16 games. Matt Moore didn't get rid of the ball quickly. He had an 8.2 ypa, 9 passes over 20 yards and 4 over 40 completed.
The run blocking was not elite and had so much room for growth, but if the oline can match what they did last year in pass blocking they will be in elite status.
Pass blocking was phenomenal? Elite? Eek.
We significantly improved from years past, but our outside screen game was a major factor in reducing the amount of sacks and taking pressure off pass pro. Sack numbers are more a reflection of that than the actual protection itself.
This is why I wasn't worried about Guards as much as I was getting a backup center.
Tunsil should be just fine at LT. James came on and I really like Asiata and I think he will have a legitimate chance to start this year.
Pouncey is the question mark. Is he healthy? Idk but based on those photos of him a month ago walking with a cane it makes you ask will he be ready? I liked Steen and thought he might end up a good center but he isn't more than a backup and isn't on Pouncey's level when Pouncey is healthy.
We have three guys billed on the roster right now as a G/C and I'm guessing Miami is going to need someone to play center.
It most certainly IS an opinion.
I gave you the reasons why those statistics are mitigated. I agreed that it was a much appreciated improvement.
But you're not crediting Tannehill whatsoever for his part in taking a shot and getting rid of the ball, or escaping the rush, or releasing the ball quickly or throwing the ball away. Look, statistics are useful. But in a game as full of inputs as football, they are more general indicators than isolated proof. Your opinion differs from mine.
We both agree that the offensive line improved. I think Gase had something to do with that through his playcalling and emphasis on getting the ball out quicker ... you ignore that. I think Tannehill's growth also had something to do with that, you do not. I think having a run game helped temper the pass rush at time, you fail to address that. I think having Stills force a safety out of the box matters, you just think that it's all about one statistic. Good luck with that.
I gave more than one stat, but if you want another one the Dolphins gave up the 15th most QB hits in the NFL, but again it's completely bloated by the performance in the first 5 games. The final 11 games they were top 3 in hits allowed on the qb. Another stat the help up when Matt Moore was in there. Just like sacks Matt Moore averaged less hits against than Ryan did, so to assume Ryan eludeding pressure was the reason for this vast improvement in sacks allowed and qb hits allowed is a bit foolish. The other reason I have a hard time crediting Ryan with this turn around is he got sacked 17x in the first 5 games. If he was a whiz at eluding pressure and getting rid of the ball so quick as you are claiming that would not have happened. What did chamge was 2 o line man cut cut, and others got healthy, and we started protecting the qb. When we started protecting the qb we started winning.
I totally agree Gase, Ryan, and Jay, all had huge parts in a drastic turn around in pass protection. The bottom line is though if you are talking about pass protection, there are a few facts that you can look at to evaluate the oline. Those facts are sacks allowed, qb pleasures, and qb hits. The final 11 games our oline were the best or among the best in all of those measurable, and they deserve credit for that. The two biggest turn arounds of 2016 was Jay and our pass protection. In the cincy and and Tenn game Ryan was getting hit every drop back. After the Tenn game Ryan was given time and he started to look like the qb we all hoped he would be since he was drafted.
There's a lot we agree on, such as the reality that the first 5 games were a learning curve and the remaining 11 games are a much better indicator. But at no time did I "assume Ryan eluding pressure was the reason for this vast improvement in sacks allowed and qb hits allowed" as you suggest. I always said that it was part of the reason why these stats in isolation were not 100% a reflection of the OL. I also explained that Gase's play calling, in particular the short passes with a high number of screens and the focus on getting the ball out quicker, were a significant part of it too. So was the fact that we manufactured a run game, as well as having an effective deep threat in Stills given teeth by hitting the deep ball. IMHO, there is no single one "the reason" explanation ... that's my entire point.
We are in agreement that this OL was much improved over Tannehill's previous disastrous seasons. He was the most sacked QB ever for a QB's first 3 years. I can tell you there was no more vocal critic than me of Dallas Thomas, Jamil Douglas and to a certain extent Billy Turner. I cautioned Turner's lack of technique was dramatic and very possible that he would never get it where it needs to be. I was THE first and most vocal anti-Dallas Thomas voice. I went off on his draft day and led the charge to get that bad player off the roster. I also clashed with people because I was one of the few not sold on Jamil Douglas. So yeah, I was super-happy when Gase cleaned house. But that doesn't mean I'm giving the rest of the OL a free pass. I'll give praise where due ... we improved in pass protection. But calling them elite at pass protection, IMHO, is not accurate. Again ... it's just my opinion, and reasonable minds may differ.
Film will tell you far more than statistics can try to explain. I've noted before we changed our pass protection sets from vertical to dish. That was the major difference for the improvement in pass protection along with the outside screen game, and run/pass balance to reduce the overall sack numbers.
Adam SchefterVerified account @AdamSchefter 2m2 minutes ago
Chargers released offensive lineman Orlando Franklin, per source. Chargers drafted two guards and deemed Franklin too pricey to keep.
I would pick him up as insurance right now.
actually just saw how bad he played last two years. Wow what a drop off. I remember lots on the board wanted him 2 years ago to shore up our line.
QB pleasures...Who's pleasuring Tannehill???