Ndamukong Suh: Patriots are definitely beatable

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by MDFINFAN, Jul 3, 2017.

  1. MDFINFAN

    MDFINFAN Reach for the Stars Super Donator Donator

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    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/07/03/ndamukong-suh-patriots-are-definitely-beatable/
     
  2. bottomline

    bottomline Member

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    They are.

    Glad big man is saying that. He didn't say that under philbin.

    These cats are ready, unlike years before; I think our opponents are weary.

    Suh knows ...
     
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  3. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Sure they can be beaten. We've had their number a few times. But at what frequency and level of importance are teams able to do it? Not often.

    Belichick collects these things on a regular basis.

    [​IMG]

    Something we haven't seen in about 45 years.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
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  4. LoneStarPhin

    LoneStarPhin Well-Known Member

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    i like that we're seeing dolphin players publicly rise to the challenge and not hesitate to proclaim their confidence that they can and will beat the Patriots.
     
  5. SF Dolphin Fan

    SF Dolphin Fan Seasoned Veteran

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    I like the way Suh says it. It would take nearly a perfect game. You can't make mistakes and expect to beat New England and you have to play for four quarters.

    On paper, New England looks better than ever, but you never know what can happen during a season. They could have a ton of injuries like Miami had last year and, sooner than later, Tom Brady will start to slip. Time is not on his side.
     
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  6. Fin Thirteen

    Fin Thirteen FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Why don't we say we don't fear them after we've beaten them a few times? :rolleyes:
     
  7. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Well-Known Member

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    Vance Joseph had no confidence to let our corners play press our first game last year. I only saw highlights of the second. I haven't seen such an overly respectful cautious approach since we played the Cowboys in Jimmy Johnson's first year.

    Pisses me off,too.

    Same thing with Philbin playing the Pats and not putting 2 DT's over the center on 4th and short. You're basically giving Tom Brady the first down. Dan Campbell was the only coach I know who corrected that mistake.

    My point is, know your effing opponents newbie coaches to the AFC EAST! We'll let you slide on finding out just how bad Dallas Thomas is, but don't take a crap schematically out there. I've got no patience anymore for this learning curve bs.
     
  8. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Finheaven VIP Donator

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    You must have a very sound and tightly knit secondary to play press consistently. Its not just as easy as making the defensive call to do so. Otherwise you'll be giving up a lot more than just a first down. Offenses will torch you if everyone isn't on the same page with everyone reading every key the same as every other secondary member.

    Only those who have played together for a while that know each others tendencies and have studied film together over a long period of time to recognize, as a unit, opponents tendencies as well are able to play with such an aggressive technique on an almost every down basis.

    *Dan Campbell did nothing different from the other coaches you mentioned either.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
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  9. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Well-Known Member

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    Well, bs on Dan Campbell. I saw it myself. I remember thinking, "huh, finally fixed that stupidity."

    I understand about playing press, but it's about not being afraid to make mistakes and giving your players a real chance to win for me. It wasn't like they didn't have any press corners, you know that was the scheme they were preaching all offseason. It's why half the bloggers didn't think they'd actually have the balls to follow through and compete, but I guess being down 21-0 in the first half is better than 28-0 while playing them how every other fan in the NFL knows how you have to play them. I mean, it wasn't even Brady back there.

    Well, eff that(not you, just the concept). It's just too much like bending over for your opponent for my taste is all. Because what happens now? You still have to walk through that door. You just found out what every fan knew to begin with; don't hold you're breath waiting for the Patriots to make a mistake... and you've just arrested your corners experience and development at the same time.
     
  10. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Dude, we did NOT play press with Brent Grimes and Brice McCain.
     
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  11. Travis34

    Travis34 chea Finheaven VIP Donator

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    hmm... well that's not even what suh said but ok
     
  12. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Well-Known Member

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    Dude, I'm not talking about two seasons ago. I even used Vance Joseph's name. Maybe that will ring a bell...I don't even like thinking about the P word (Philbin) or his era.

    We didn't even play them close to the line, let alone press last year in the first game. That's my beef.

    We won two years ago because their line was trash, not because of a sound scheme in the secondary.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
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  13. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Finheaven VIP Donator

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    My bad. Skipped the Philbin part myself, just read that Campbell corrected it and assumed it related to playing press coverage.

    As far as last year in the first game vs the Pats in week 2: I didn't expect to see aggressive perimeter play with three new secondary members (one of which was a rookie) and a new DC. That just doesn't happen automatically. Using jams consistently is a defensive progression. Otherwise, you're just hurting yourself even more and handing the advantage over to the offense by giving them a broader opportunity to get behind you due to inexperience as a unit.
     
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  14. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, you're right, and it was Garaffalo too. So there was an off chance he would make mistakes. I'll tamp it down, I'm just tired of waiting for a legitimate chance to compete. Here's hoping this year we can challenge them.

    I don't even care if the refs intervene and give them the game. I just want to emulate the only scheme that ever worked with any consistency against them, the Jets. You gotta stay ultra aggressive and fly around with your hair on fire...If you do it right you'll hear an audible "whoo!" by the player making the tackle on their underneath routes.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  15. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Ah, no worries and no reason to tamp it down. Amp it up.

    It's been a long damn time since we've been in true contention for a championship and who knows when our time will surface. In the meantime, might as well enjoy the NFL while it still exists in the realm as we know now it.
     
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  16. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Well-Known Member

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    Well said, well said...
     
  17. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for the in between edits, I'm 45 and my thoughts come in waves of separate sets sometimes, lol.
     
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  18. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Ha ha, I do the same. Toss out my first thoughts and then edit my verbiage and structure some moments later while also adding more content.
     
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  19. studsatele

    studsatele Starter Super Donator Donator

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    Absolutely they're beatable. It's always been that way. The thing is, building a team tough enough, smart enough and disciplined enough to do it.
     
  20. TannDaMan17

    TannDaMan17 Well-Known Member

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    Suh is the best.
     
  21. tay0365

    tay0365 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I agree with Suh, you have to respect the Patriots, Belichick is one of the great HC of all time, Brady is one of the greatest QB of all time, but they are without doubt very beatable.

    Their 1st three SB came because of some help from Spy-gate, and winning at the end in close games with one of the greatest pressure Kicker in Football.

    They then tried to get there and win again without doing anything underhanded Result: Took a few years to get back, and when they did...inflate-gate, and a little help from a HC on the Seahawks that over thunk it, and passed, when running favored more for a score.

    Finally last year, the Patriots did straight up, no hanky panky, and got back to the superbowl, but again lucked out after getting blown away from the falcons thanks to great defense and and effective running game, but the Falcons in the 2nd half could not stop the run or pass, and the QB on the Falcons was known to melt when pressure was on, and it fell on him.

    All the respect in the world, the Pats are a great team, but you play a mistake free game, and odds are in your favor to beat them.
     
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  22. DuderinoN703

    DuderinoN703 I can get you a toe Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I like the Suh makes that comments while also praising the Patriots for who they are. Yes some will take his comments as buffoonish but that's due to the bias folks have of him.
     
  23. 39wildman

    39wildman A True Fan

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    The dolphins or bills sometime beat them one time yr...coaching staff is key to beat N.E. they have best coach and best qb in nfl.
     
  24. NYC#1finsfan

    NYC#1finsfan #1DandyDanFan

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    No more talking about it. Time to go out and do it!!!!
     
  25. A500

    A500 Active Member

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    It's funny how PFF left out all the parts where Suh was talking up the pats. Just to stir up nonsense
     
  26. finmann

    finmann Pro Bowler

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    One of the things that annoy me is this notion of playing a perfect game to beat NE. Impossible. Brady has mastered the art of dinking and dunking and turning those into huge gains. Question is why can" the rest of the league stop it, it's not like we don't know what's coming.
     
  27. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Very long explanation short: Belichick is a genius and Brady is excellent at ID'ing the defense pre-snap and in many instances NE's offense is designed to to beat both man and zone coverages within the same playcall.

    Here's just one often used example to show that:

    [​IMG]

    The shallow and mid-level crossing routes on one side are used vs Man and the flood routes are used to beat Zone on the other. As long as Brady is able to ID the defense's intentions, the passing play is virtually unstoppable if executed correctly.
     
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  28. finmann

    finmann Pro Bowler

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  29. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Well-Known Member

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    What's the best way to counter it? Criss cross your coverage accordingly?
     
  30. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Confusion is a great start. If you can show a certain coverage shell pre-snap and roll into another post-snap then you can delay the proper read in hopes that your pass rush or blitz gets home in time to disrupt the QB or move him off his spot to alter the timing of the routes.

    Pattern Match coverage (which was developed by Belichick and Saban during their years together in Cleveland right before Modell uprooted the franchise) is another that provides a lot of answers in that it the defense plays zone at the snap and in underneath coverage but ends up being man once routes are declared.

    Here's an example of Pattern Match I posted in the Stars and System Guy thread:

    All in all, defense is always at a disadvantage to the offense and when your facing a QB like Brady who has seen it all in his 17 year career and counting, you're pretty much at his mercy if you can't get pressure and provide confusion consistently.
     
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  31. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Well-Known Member

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    I remember Brady saying Zach Thomas' 4-3 defense was nothing exotic, it's just that we were so good at it.

    Were they using these schemes back then?
     
  32. John Biello

    John Biello Perennial All-Pro

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    That pattern match seems so confusing to me, relying on young players in the secondary to read things and matchup mentally with the likes of brady and edelman is not something id want to be relying on. though i like your first point, disguising our coverage intentions more pre-snap would be a great start.
     
  33. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Charlie Weiss was a main catalyst in innovating and installing the modern twist on the Erhardt-Perkins scheme for the Patriots in 2000. That also happened to be Brady's rookie year. The Patriots slowly implemented the system and eased Brady into it as well. They stuck to some of the traditions of the E&P system of it being a run first system for many years before turning it into the complex scheme we see today. Brady was a low 60% completion and 2/1 TD to INT passer in his first 5-6 years and it wasn't until Belichick trusted him to take the reigns that he unfurled the multiplex pass first scheme that the Patriots used for their 16-0 run in '07 and forward.

    So that said, Zach Thomas only saw that NE offense as a Dolphin for one season (1-15).
     
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  34. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Finheaven VIP Donator

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    We'll be a heavy zone defense. Our main hope vs teams like the Patriots will be an efficient and high scoring offense. Our defense won't do anything to confuse savvy QB's coverage wise besides a post snap coverage shell rotation. Even then the majority of our changes will simply be b/w Cover 2 & 3. We don't have the DB's for Cover 1 (Man Free), nor the coverage backers underneath to consistently use Cover 4.
     
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  35. BigNastyFish

    BigNastyFish A True Fan

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    Cheaters can be hard to beat when the game is in "play."

    I still cannot believe the incredibly inept performance of the Falcons finding a way to lose a won game.

    In my account the Cheats still don't have one legit Stupid Bowl title. Not one.

    And you know Vince Lombardi has been vomiting in his grave for quite a few years now!

    My opinion. Of course.

    NE Sucks like no other team. Has ever sucked!!!!!!!
     
  36. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Finheaven VIP Donator

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    So were Marino's/Dolphin comebacks just a result of the opposition finding a way to lose the game?
     

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