Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Casas9425, Jan 13, 2013.
Glad it looks like re-signing Randy Starks is near the top of the to do list. I am getting the feeling that Starks, Hartline and Bush will be re-signed before free agency starts.
nothing we didnt alreay know, but thanks for sharing. jackson always has the best stuff
Does this mean Odrick at RE next year too :bricks:
We did find out that apparently Ross is going to pay for most of the stadium renovations himself.
Bummer note about the stadium. Upgrades to delay the need for a new one for 25 or 30 years? Sheesh. Thankfully Stephen Ross will be dead long before that. :lol:
Hopefully the next guy has more sense about the importance of this issue. Ross has his heart in the right place about some things but he's been nothing but a penny pinching douchebag about the stadium.
Randy Starks needs to be resigned. He's a better 4-3 DT than either Odrick or Soliai, which isn't to denigrate either of those two, because they're quality players also. What we need to do is run the three of them in a rotation and acquire an actual 4-3 LDE in the Kenny Mixon mold, which we just don't have right now. Odrick simply isn't suited to play outside (he's quick up the field but no so much moving laterally) and his heavy workload out there (which was below average against the pass) hurt his production inside when we did kick him in there.
One of the untold success stories of the personnel department last year was uncovering Derrick Shelby as an UDFA and getting quality snaps out of him at DE. He's undersized for that position and was mostly used on passing downs but he's really more of a run defender. Basically what we need is a better version of him. The draft has some interesting possibilities but either way it's a position of need. It's doesn't necessarily have to be an early pick or a mega deal FA. You generally only need one DE who's adept at both. Most teams don't have the budget for two. So you cover the other side with two guys, one for the run and the other for the pass.
Right now I think we need both. Maybe between Vernon and Shelby we can cover the run downs. But I'm not sold on either guy as a pass rusher.
Only thing that matters to me is Reshad Jones getting a extension.
But I hope Bush, Starks and Hartline come back. Smith im ehh on, but no need to make a bigger hole. So give him a decent deal.
---------- Post added at 01:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 AM ----------
When kicked inside Odrick was our best pass rushing DT.
Starks is the 2nd best based on what I saw, Odrick is a damn good DT. He provides pass rush from the inside better than Starks could ever dream of. I think trading Solai to a 3-4 team in need of a NT for a 2nd or 3rd would be ideal.
Basically for me Odrick at DT = Better pass rush vs Starks at DT = Better run defense. I like Odrick at DT better for value IMO
I don't agree. I don't have a PFF subscription but didn't they give Odrick a fairly low grade even for his interior pass rush snaps? I seem to remember reading that somewhere. That would certainly match up with what I saw all year, anyway. Odrick often looked totally spent rushing inside, which is understandable given he was playing a position he's not suited for athletically on run downs and trying to make up the difference with pure effort. That takes a toll on even a tremendously fit lineman such as Odrick. The result was we ended up getting like a 75 out of 100 result from a guy who should be giving you like 85 out of a 100.
Starks is stronger, more experienced and a better athlete than Odrick, especially moving laterally (better/more flexible ankles). He also does a much better job getting in lanes and knocking down passes. Odrick is quicker off the snap and more adept and knifing between blocks. He's also got a higher motor. But he flails at times and ends up on the ground more than he should.
I liked Odrick a lot, don't get me wrong. But Starks is the rarer beast. The only downside is that though he's "only" 29 he's been in the league nine years. What's that Indiana Jones quote? It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage? Starks has some serious NFL mileage on him. But... he's also been exceptionally durable for a defensive lineman. In four years here he's only missed one game.
I can't think of a good reason to let him go. Not one. Nor Soliai. You move Odrick inside and you've got one of the most dynamic rotations in the league at one of the most important positions in the game. They need to figure out the LDE and nickel pass rusher position. Maybe the combination of Odrick and Starks being fresher can provide that extra pass rush. I think that's what they were counting on this year but there just wasn't enough of a rotation to keep guys fresh. Odrick in particular seemed to be playing every snap.
I agree with that, I want Starks back and he's priority #1 in my book. But alot of DLineman can play for a long time, Pat Williams, Vince Wilfork, Casey Heyward, Keith Traylor. I think he's still got 5 or 6 years of good football left.
How much does Bushs fumbles play into his chances to get re signed or how he will be used next year? With all the talk about turnovers by the staff you know that has to be asked.
thats a truely unfair statement to make. is it Ross fault that the city is making it VERY difficult for the team to upgrade the stadium (almost impossible to build a new stadium) because of the Marlin's prior f@*! up? NO. i think most SENSIBLE people would say that he is doing the best he can with a small amount of wiggle room
If by "the city is making it very difficult," you mean refusing to pay for it, then yes it is and with good reason. No more public subsidies for billionaires. Let him pay for all of the costs himself (only fair since he keeps all of the profits).
I think Starks should be allowed to walk. 29 years old is too old for what they are building.
Starks has been consistently one of the best DT's in the NFL, and should continue to be so for another 3-5 years. No one can dispute that.
Last year, we lost Langford, and a bit of Merling, from our rotation, and Soliai only plays little more than half the snaps. Odrick moves inside, according to him, around 25% of snaps. Without Starks, who joins the rotation, especially on passing downs when Soliai sits?
Odrick has been good vs the run at DE but, has not provided a pass rush inside or out. IMO, we need to re-sign Starks, and I would rather not re-sign Solia, after this year, and give his money to Starks.
Then, IF Vernon does not work out, we can move Odrick inside to team with Starks as every down players. Would anyone rather have Solia vs Starks?
Yeah, the economic impact on South Florida is negligible. Who the hell need all the jobs in building AAA, Marlins Stadium, and Robbie Stadium, along with the people who work there, and the retailers, hotels, bars and restaurants that thrive from them being here?
To hell with all sports franchises, we would be better off without them. A penny saved in taxes will be much better. What the hell were we thinking before?
*SARCASM ALERT !!!
Show me where he's said even once that he wants to build a new stadium.
And why should the city of Miami pay for upgrades to a stadium that's actually in Miami Gardens? The whole reason the stadium is out there is because Joe Robbie paid for it himself after fighting with city commissioners. He didn't want them to benefit from his investment and built a stadium he felt would better serve all of South Florida.
Well, there are consequences to that decision. And among them is that the city of Miami wipes it's hands of your stadium in perpetuity, since you can no longer argue that the stadium contributes to the city in terms of property tax, restaurants and hotels.
Robbie ****ed up, and now we're paying for it. If Ross wants to build a new state of the art stadium inside the city limits, he'll have my support. Wake me when that happens.
My argument is that these are related. Odrick is actually a natural pass rusher. I just think he's getting too exhausted playing DE. We need to move him inside permanently to rotate with Starks and Soliai so both he and Starks can remain fresher on nickel downs.
In all due respect, Odrick is a kid who should be able to play the snaps. Hell, MANY others are doing the same. He "may" have natural pass rush instincts but, I have yet to see them. From what I have seen, his sacks and hits are created by others or, just because he is the player there.
He has to beat the man in front of him to rush the QB, have not seen that. I am not giving up on him but, Pee Wee needs to get bigger in making some plays. Vernon, Misi, and Starks (at DT) have shown him the way.
Wow :idk: I seriously hope you were very drunk when you wrote that
From the Miami Herald:
Meanwhile, Pro Football Focus rated Odrick as a top 20 3-4 DE in 2011, with many of those snaps coming in nickel passing situations where he was basically a 4-3 DT. Sharing playing time last year he had more sacks (6) than he did this year (5).
His best destiny is inside. Not only is playing outside hurting his production inside, but he's just not very good out there.
Should I be hoping he lives longer? The man wants to ensure my team has no viable home field advantage for 25-30 years. I consider that a dire attack, as should everyone. The fact that he's 72 years old is the only silver lining in a situation without many.
I just wish we could get a new state of the art stadium in Biscayne Bay. Sigh...not happening though.
Wow dude, just wow.
In the FWIW dept, Odrick played 951 snaps last year. Old Man Wake had 936, and Starks had 826. Don't see the snap count as an issue on production.
Pee WEE was #21 on PFF's 3-4 DE's in 2011. However, his grade was a negative 0.7, which made him the Dolphins third best DE. Srarks was #6 at +12.4, and Langford was #18 at +2.
I am not giving up on Odrick, as he is young and missed a year due to injury. However, his play (regardless of where) is a concern because he is not beating the man in front of him.
imo odrick is a natural 43 dt...and the best interior pass rusher on the team...there's no doubt all those snaps in space took away from his pass rush on the inside some this year...
if starks returns and you kick odrick inside in a rota with starks and solia then a edge pass rushing force opposite wake is a big need imo...shelby is more a run defender set the edge and poa guy although i also see him as a bit undersized he can flush the qb as a pass rusher at times but he's woefully slow in space and can't close...not enough acceleration to ever provide much pass rush off the edge...
vernon has acceleration and can close and pretty fluid hips he just has at this stage no rush arsenal and no real counter when his initial rush is nullified...still vernon can disengage and get off blocks in space fairly well i'd say...i think i still see more pass rush upside there...
No owner in the NFL would be getting the Dolphins a new stadium right now, not after the Marlins fiasco. To buy the land and build a top notch stadium from the ground up would likely cost over a billion dollars. That's going to require major public financing and I don't see that happening.
I think that major stadium renovations that address the two biggest problems with the current facility (distance from the action, intensity of noise) is the best we can hope for, and it sounds like that's what he wants to do.
And believe me, I'd love to see the team get a new stadium more along the lines of the old Orange Bowl experience more than anyone. It's just not going to happen.
Starks is a great player, this is a good resign. I would like to the team to resign Matt Moore, but he will probably leave for the Jets IMHO..
Daniel Thomas has been garbage since his arrival. Miller has already put him on the bench. It is very clear that we need another big back that plays big.
Obama was not available at the WH in December to meet the Heat? If he doesn't show at the next schedule visit of the reining NBA champs is a bigger douche bag.
The only way a new billion dollar development could happen is if it includes other amenities. I have proposed an idea that Ross get development permission to fill in a section of biscayne bay between Miami and Miami Beach along 175. It could include a 75K football stadium, shopping, restaurants, parks and marina, hard court venue and a PGA gold course. It would be a world class gem. The scenic beauty is already on site. A major development that could get funding from a lot of sources to rejuvenate the team, the town and economy. Big plans require a big man to make it happen. Just a pipe dream these days.
What do we do without Starks, and Solia playing little more than half the time?
If it had been his goal from day one we would have gotten that stadium instead of the Marlins. It's definitely tougher now, but that only amplifies the wrong headed, penny pinching thinking I'm talking about.
This kind of band aid will do more harm than good, imo. It basically ensures we'll be in some version of that stadium for decades, rather than waiting it out a few years and taking another shot at a real solution.
Thanks for the numbers, but I'm not sure why you'd think they support your cause. Odrick outweighs Wake by about 50 lbs. It's hardly fair to compare their snap counts. But he did play about seven snaps per game more than Starks, who's about the same size. That's a whole extra drive.
If you want to argue that doesn't make a difference, go ahead. But you shouldn't.
I agree with this post overall. But as I think about it part of the hope would be you'd get more out of Odrick from a pass rush standpoint in this kind of scenario. It's a move that would definitely help the pass rush... and without changing personnel. The need would be for a guy to stop the run on first and second down as a LDE. Between Shelby and Vernon (and some Odrick) I think we can make that fly. Sure it might hurt the run defense a bit but that's a good tradeoff to make with this defense right now, imo.
not sure what you're asking me here but if starks walks i kick odrick inside in his place opposite solia and find a rotational dt with pass rush talents in the 2 deep with randall...or i consider bringing back mcd at a much cheaper price like half of what he made in 2012...if he balks i walk away
and i use a high pick on a de with pass rush talents first and foremost...this team can get by in run d with a rotation of the guys i mentioned and rotating odrick on occasion with shelby and vernon vs the run but we need first and foremost up front another pass rusher...solia is a tough guy to have on the field in passing downs he just doesn't do enough pass rush wise find an edge rush talent with elite physical tools with that top pick if need be...
the other thing about premium edge rush players is they rarely rarely sniff free agency in their primes and when they do they get massive money see mario williams and buffalo so if you want to get one a high pick in the draft is where you usually have to go...get a 3rd down pass rush specialist with premium tools as far as get off the ball and that can bend...you can work with high end physical tools...you can't do much with guys that tackles don't always have to account for...first step quickness and explosion translates to the next level...
Although I want to sign starks, This is defineltey what I dont want ^.
Stephen Ross was never building a new stadium in Miami because they'd never finance it. The only bond that'd be viable would never get past taxpayers. You can tax hotels/restaurants all you want, but you're not hitting 1.1 billion that you need for a bad *** stadium.
Also, for everyone parroting what the NFL wants you to about how stadiums create jobs, etc... stop. It's not true.
I prefaced my post with "in the FWIW dept, meaning something to consider or not. No argument here, I just believe that Odrick's age negates the snap count as an excuse for lack of production, and his not beating the man in front of him much early or late in the game or on the outside and the inside. JMO, as you have given yours, which I respect but, do not agree with.
For not knowing what I was asking, you answered very well.
I was looking for opinions on options with or without Starks, and you did nail them. I would add that we will not be able to replace Starks in FA, and losing him will have a very negative effect in stopping the run and pass. JMO
I like both Odrick and Starks too - but the one thing that separates them for me is that Starks seems to come up with his sacks on 3rd downs, etc - he doesn't get many - but over his career with us he seems to have that "winner"ness that you can't teach. I remember being at a Jets-Fins game a few years ago (when Ginn went nuts) and Starks sacked Sanchez on a 4th down as the Jests were threatening to tie the game late. It's plays like that he seems to make a couple times a year that have me saying, "I love this guy".
Yikes!!! The available backup QB cast is downright attrocious!!! Didn't we draft Stanton? Man these guys all suck...
The Dolphins told Moore they want to keep him but have never given him a firm offer. If the Dolphins lose Moore, their free agent backup quarterback options include Jason Campbell, Brady Quinn, Tarvaris Jackson, Drew Stanton, Rex Grossman, Matt Leinart, Charlie Batch, Brian Hoyer and Bruce Gradkowski. Third-stringer Pat Devlin, a favorite of Joe Philbin, also could compete for the No. 2 job if Moore bolts.
Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/spor...s-heat-marlins-roster-buzz.html#storylink=cpy