OLB's / Pass Rushers

Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by Elliott 1, Dec 27, 2011.

  1. Elliott 1

    Elliott 1 Banned Hammered

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    Could Quentin Coples play OLB in a 3-4??

    What about Cam Johnson and some of the other bigger DE's in this year's draft??

    Why is Andre Branch all over the place? I have seen him projected from the 1st to 4th round?

    What do you see as the best moves the Dolphins could make to improve the pass rush?
     
  2. ONole1

    ONole1 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    It all depends on who the coach is and what defensive scheme he wants to run.
     
  3. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    after reviewing a good amount of coples tape and the bowl game if you hear steps its me moving away from coples as a candidate for our top pick...
     
  4. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    i'm definitely not seeing coples as a 34 fit...not seeing enough explosion and burst to warrant a top 10 pick even as a 43 end...things he should be getting to if he was that caliber athlete and short area burst player he's not...and he looks awfully straight linish to me and has some real stiffness in his hips...slow with his redirect...to me he looks like another guy who's gotten too damn big...like daquan bowers last year and lost some of his explosion...he's listed at 6 ft 6 and 290 lbs...

    if we're talking top 10 pick edge pass rusher show me some high end rush tools...you need to pop off the tape for me...when he gains the edge on the tackle he's too stiff to turn and open his hips and straight line to the qb he has to make a very wide turn...power player but lacks explosion...i don't see aldon smith or jpp level athlete here
     
  5. WaxOn WaxOff

    WaxOn WaxOff Starter Finheaven VIP

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    Re: Branch. Good question on why he is all over the board. I suspect he is being underrated as he was coming out of high school. He was a 2 star by most recruiting services, but has lit it up in college. I'd take him in the 2nd rd without hesitation. He can bring it from the edge. He has the skills and size to be the strong side LB in a 3-4 and play every down. He would upgrade our D in a major way. Why round 2 then? Because I think we can steal him there.
     
  6. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    branch is buyer beware imo...
     
  7. PSU Cane

    PSU Cane Starter

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    I wouldn't touch Coples where the Phins will be drafting. He doesn't have a great motor and from what i've seen he doesn't show great change of direction or explosion. I don't see him being an elite pass rusher like Peppers or Mario Williams or being able to play OLB and playing in space. To me, he only fits the 4-3 teams. I think quality left tackles in the NFL will handle him and whoever drafts him should move to him to LDE position.
     
  8. WaxOn WaxOff

    WaxOn WaxOff Starter Finheaven VIP

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    "imo". I think that says it all. Have you watched the guy play? Do you know his size and speed? I have watched him extensively. He is 6'4", 260lb, 4.6-4.7 speed. He has 16 TFL and 10.5 sacks this year,73 total tackles. I think he translates to a 3-4 strongside OLB just fine, but the speed at the combine matters, of course.
     
  9. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    branch has one year of high end production...his senior year...thats called a red flag...and yeah i've seen him plenty...he wore out the va tech tackle in blacksburg

    i don't think he's the uber explosion athlete you make him out to be either...he's not someone i'm looking at with my high 2nd round pick i know that
     
  10. WaxOn WaxOff

    WaxOn WaxOff Starter Finheaven VIP

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    He played behind Ricky Sapp his 1st two years at Clemson.

    Again, I say the combine is the big issue him. There aren't many in college who would project to Stongside OLB 3-4 in college. Only a very few can meet the size and speed requirements. Misi meets the size numbers but is a little slow and can't bring pressure. There aren't many Lawrence Taylors out there. I think Branch will not be an NFL AllPro, but he could bring everything Misi does and provide pressure from the other side to balance Wake. Vinny Curry of Marshall is the only other player that I would look at in the 2nd round to fill that spot. Either in the 3rd rd is a no brainer to me.
     
  11. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    oh yeah ricky sapp...who has been trash in the pros...and no thanks on vinny curry...
     
  12. WaxOn WaxOff

    WaxOn WaxOff Starter Finheaven VIP

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    And I was not in favor of drafting Ricky Sapp, so I don't get your point there. If we don't get an OLB to replace Taylor we are in trouble. Like it or not, one will be drafted if we don't sign one in FA.
     
  13. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    fair enough...i'm just not much of a fan of the edge pass rusher class options period...don't like curry don't like branch...i like bruce irvins tools don't like his size don't like coples in a 34 period

    i like the depth better elsewhere...
     
  14. Elliott 1

    Elliott 1 Banned Hammered

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    What about Sammy Brown in the mid-rounds??

    Has anybody seen Jake Bequette play?

    They are going to have to have to pick up some depth at least. I like the idea of adding FA Kroy Bierman. With Taylor retiring and Trusnick being worthless and Ike Francis being clueless, this is an area that is going to need some serious attention.

    I would expect our division rivals to eat up all the good prospects in the first three rounds. Bills,Jets, and Patriots all need pass rushers.
     
  15. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    kroy bierman has got some pass rush talent...he's underrated imo...not sure i like him though as a 34 olb but i do think he could help us in 4 man pass rush fronts...
     
  16. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Branch is probably all over the place because he's only had one year of legitimate production. He doesn't have an explosive first step whatsoever, slow to get off the snap. Furthermore, I think people have become weary of Clemson defensive ends. Gaines Adams, Phillip Merling, Ricky Sapp, DaQuan Bowers, and now Andre Branch were all overrated. Branch is still raw in technique, but I actually like him better than I did any of the Clemson DE's that came before him... I didn't like any of them.

    As for Coples, I don't know why a team would try to project him as an OLB, but he could probably play a little bit from a 2-point stance. He's done it at UNC. The concern with Coples is that he doesn't play up to the "freakish" attributes he possesses. Also concerns that he's not a team player and only cares about his draft stock. UNC tried to get him to move back inside so they could get more explosive pass rushers on the field at DE (Donta Paige-Moss) but Coples refused because he was worried it would hinder his draft stock.

    Coples is one of those guys who is impossible to predict in the NFL. If he wants to, he'll dominate and be a pro-bowler. If he doesn't, he'll fizzle out. Nobody knows how bad he wants it other than him. All you can go on is what you see on the tape.... and on the tape he's not quite as dominant as he's supposed to be.
     
  17. Elliott 1

    Elliott 1 Banned Hammered

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    He played OLB in college at Montana and had a great career. He should be a natural in the 3-4.
     
  18. ChambersWI

    ChambersWI Owner of the Palace of Wisdom Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I'd take a look at Brandon Lindsey from Pitt. Been a starter at LB, but last year moved to DE for a season when Greg Romeus got hurt and put together a very good season.
     
  19. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    I went back and watched some more of several of these guys last night with this particular thread in mind. Jake Bequette is a guy that I've mentioned literally dozens of times as one of the most underrated players in the country at his position, and I believe CKParrothead is rather fond of him also. However, he's strictly a 4-3 DE. Very stiff and doesn't at all project as a standup linebacker in my opinion. Bequette and Malik Jackson are two DE's that I think are pretty underrated.

    Moving on, I watched more of Andre Branch (specifically his game against South Carolina where Clemson's defense got drilled... which is why I chose that game.) One of his sacks came on a play where he was completely unblocked at the LOS, and South Carolina tried to block him with a freshman tailback, Brandon Wilds.

    His other sack was actually more of a 'clean-up' sack. The actual play was made by Malliciah Goodman in the backfield by destroying his blocker, Branch just happened to be in the right spot to clean it up and get credit for the sack. Other than these two plays, Branch got no real pressure on Connor Shaw, and didn't flat out beat his offensive lineman on a single play throughout the whole game.



    I also watched some of Sammy Brown. The positive for Sammy Brown is that he obviously already plays from a 2-point stance in Houston's 3-4 defense. His TFL's are a little inflated due to being the over-hanging weakside defender where all he does is tee off in the backfield on every single snap. He likes to chase the play down from the backside when unblocked on zone running plays. He's not required to play "honest" by dropping into coverage, scraping backs out of the backfield, or setting the edge. He's strictly a weakside linebacker in the NFL.

    He has a decent first step, although his best move is an inside counter to beat the tackle's post leg. Doesn't look very physical and can stay blocked and get washed out in the run game. Joseph Fauria had little trouble blocking him in the run game. Probably a situational pass rusher right now who could help out in nickel situations. Would be a more effective pass rusher on 3rd downs than Koa Misi currently is, although he's not as complete of a player.

    Reminds me a little bit of the Chris Carter kid CK was gushing over last year coming out of Fresno St.
     
  20. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Cam Johnson is a kid who I actually get more impressed by the more I watch him. He absolutely tortured Brandon Washington when UVA played Miami.

    He's a beautiful looking specimen of a DE/OLB hybrid. Well proportioned throughout his entire body.... looks the part. Re-directs better than you think because of instincts, and is always in control of his feet.

    Average 1st step. Not great. Not bad.

    The only thing is I haven't seen him play from a 2-point stance, he plays with his hand on the ground. Linebacker drills are going to tell the story with Cam Johnson as to how well he projects as an OLB. Although I did see him drop into coverage once in the Miami game on a zone blitz when Miami was in the red zone... the ball went right by him for a touchdown.

    He has natural power in his hands, he just needs to learn how to use them better to shed blocks quicker.

    Needs to add a spin move or some sort of counter and he'd have more sacks. He's not going to bend the arc and beat tackles with speed by lowering his shoulder and getting underneath them the way Brian Orakpo or Cam Wake can. He's not that type of player. I think if he shows well in linebacker drills, he'll be looked at as a potential strongside candidate as a standup OLB.
     
  21. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Bruce Irvin is easily the best pure athlete I've seen of all the potential 'hybrid' candidates. Re-directs and changes direction as quickly and easily as Von Miller did.... Irvin is that caliber of athlete. Amazing agility.... and can cover ground like a safety. Terrific motor and is always hustling and chasing until the whistle.

    Dynamite 1st step and initial quickness off the snap.

    However, he hasn't yet learned how to convert his speed into power on initial contact with his blocker. Nothing in terms of a bullrush, and doesn't have the lead in his pants to anchor effectively.... strictly a rush 3-4 'backer.

    Still very raw as a defender. Gets by mostly on athletic ability and doesn't yet understand what leverage and discipline on defense is all about. Although outside of the SEC, those things really aren't stressed by coaches in college football anyway. They teach just enough to get them by due to restraints on practice time.

    Plenty of upside with Bruce Irvin.
     
  22. 3rdandinches

    3rdandinches Seasoned Veteran

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    Hey Ted, I haven`t seen you promoting C.Upshaw as our pick or in general as a prospect, is there any red flags with him or what`s up there?
     
  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I feel like I've got a good handle on Coples. Even better handle on him after that bowl game. I'm not backing away from him, I'm sprinting toward him. Dominant player. Would you put him at 3-4 OLB? Ideally no but I wouldn't shy away from it either. It would depend on what else you have, what other resources and how you feel you have to best leverage them.

    Cam Johnson is IMO a very interesting player. He looks like a linebacker in proportioning and even in some of his movements, but a jumbo sized linebacker. It's like how you don't realize some point guards or two guards are 6'6" until you stand them next to another normal/athletically proportioned human that is 6'0". That's how it strikes me when Cam stands next to his fellow teammate linebackers. Not unlike Allen Bailey, come to think on it.

    I like players that break the mold a little. I'd like to see Cam stay at DE because I feel like he has the potential to make plays vs run and pass as a guy that can attack and shed, and get after the passer. Those dual threats are a little more rare than you'd think nowadays.

    But, if you get him into LB drills and he kills it, I suppose I could be convinced to put him in space.
     
  24. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    None. I have zero doubt that Courtney Upshaw is the most dominant defensive player I've seen in college football this year, and most of last year too, behind only Marcell Dareus and Von Miller. He's the #2 defensive player in the draft behind Morris Claiborne in my opinion. He's a legitimate plug-and-play... and will compete for DROY honors as a rookie. Same as Von Miller and Clay Matthews. He instantly makes whatever defense he goes to better.

    His physicality borders on brutality. He'll literally hurt people.

    I've mentioned prior somewhere around here that I'd take Upshaw in the top 10 before I would Coples. I think Upshaw is a better player.... and I like Coples.
     
  25. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Cam Johnson reminds me a lot of Jarret Johnson when he was at Bama. I think Cam is a very similar prospect, and makes a similar pro.
     
  26. 3rdandinches

    3rdandinches Seasoned Veteran

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    Outside of trading up for A.Luck wouldn`t it, by a far margin, be our smartest move to draft him over any other player?
     
  27. ChambersWI

    ChambersWI Owner of the Palace of Wisdom Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I really like Upshaw, and I hear Seattle loves him to (want him as the elephant backer position CLay Matthews played at USC). I think come draft time he might get less press than he deserves depending on what underclassmen declare.

    Other guys worth looking at in rounds 2 or 3 are Stanford's CHase Thomas, Boise's Shea McClellin, and Lindsey from Pitt I mentioned earlier.

    In the late round (partly cause I know him) take a look at Adrian Robinson from Temple. Nice guy but dumber than a bunch of rocks.

    Actually... this draft is nicer than I thought at OLB
     
  28. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Completely agree. I think anytime you can get your hands on an elite pass rusher, you should just about always take him. Especially one as versatile as Upshaw.

    Being able to affect the opposing team's quarterback is just as important as when the opposing team is able to affect yours. Upshaw isn't just a pass rusher though, he's a play maker. He's going to cause turnovers by forcing fumbles, and cause quarterbacks to make mistakes even when he doesn't quite register the sack.

    He plays through pain. He plays hurt. I've seen his ankle so sprained he could barely even walk to the sidelines after forcing a 3-and-out, and still bringing it down after down getting after the quarterback.

    Andrew Luck, Trent Richardson, and Morris Claiborne are really the only 3 players I would take over Upshaw.
     
  29. finsfanjay13

    finsfanjay13 Rookie Donator

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    I would be happy with Upshaw if the Dolphins can't get Luck (outside chance, of course).
     
  30. 3rdandinches

    3rdandinches Seasoned Veteran

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    You think T.Richardson is that much more valuable in a pass happy league and we have Bush and Thomas already? He's that much of a difference maker.
     
  31. Austin Tatious

    Austin Tatious Starter

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    Upshaw is exactly the type of kid Miami has not made a priority in the past but really needs to. He makes PLAYS. If we can't get a qb in round one, sign me up for Upshaw in the 1st and Weeden in the second.

    Upshaw opposite of Wake with Dansby on the inside would give Miami three excellent linebackers. Obviously, Burnett has struggled, but having 3 stud linebackers around him would be tremendous.
     
  32. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    burnetts been ballin of late...we're set at ilb...dansby and burnett are nice
     
  33. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Absolutely. Trent is also a dangerous weapon out of the backfield as a receiver, along with being the best pass protecting RB I've ever seen come out of college.... literally.

    If you're picking in the top 10, you should just about always be drafting for ELITE talent... there's only a couple in any draft. Trent Richardson is an extremely rare RB prospect.

    I've always like Reggie Bush and felt that he has a unique skillset, but you can't count on him being your bellcow back. Daniel Thomas is nothing more than the Channing Crowder of Miami's offense.... except Crowder could actually stay on the field when he came into the league.

    Passing on Trent Richardson if he's available outside the top 5 picks is the same as passing on Patrick Willis because you have an old, slow, concussed Zach Thomas and Channing Crowder. It's the same as passing on Clay Matthews because Joey Porter had one big season for you. Same as passing on Matt Ryan because you have John Beck.

    I'm typically drafting vertically picking in the top 10 if an elite talent falls to me. Passing on a talent like Trent Richardson is a mistake.
     
  34. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I've missed this place. I had a friend (Steelers fan) mock Coples to Miami, and I said I'd prefer Upshaw. Reminded me about the very strong praise Slimm gave to Upshaw, and I had to check to see if anything new was going happening on the draft board. Good ****.
     
  35. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    slimm so you think upshaw has the kind of immediate pass rush and overall impact that clay matthews and von miller had/have had during their rookie campaigns??? thats a darn mouth full...high dang praise indeed
     
  36. 2413fanphins

    2413fanphins A True Fan

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    I just don't get it when I see mocks where upshaw goes in the late teens and early twenties... If we pass on him in the top ten, unless it's for a blackmon or claiborne, or trich... I'd be looking for a bunch of pills to swallow.
     
  37. Hayden Fox

    Hayden Fox Love Creating Turnovers Donator

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    I like Upshaw. He is a good fit in the currently Fins system.

    However, I think Nick Saban defenders play small in the NFL.
     
  38. 2413fanphins

    2413fanphins A True Fan

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    I don't know dude.. I've been keepin an eye on mcclain... I still like that dude... 89 tackles, 5 sacks and a safety.. plenty of PD's too...

    i really like upshaw.

    hell for that matter I like about three other bama defensive boys too....
     
  39. Hayden Fox

    Hayden Fox Love Creating Turnovers Donator

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    McClain in prison yet? lol.
     
  40. 2413fanphins

    2413fanphins A True Fan

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    should be... hahahaha
     

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