Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by jim1, May 3, 2014.
Who's horrible, Kouandjio? Maybe for trend followers who don't realize that his knee checks out fine. He dominated on an unbelieveable Alabama OL the last few years- devastating drive blocker who is good in pass pro and looks tailor made for RT in the NFL. Elite prospect coming out of high school elite player at Alabama at a severe need position for us. Don't believe the recent negative hype, I doubt that NFL front office execs are. Check out the drive blocking here at 2:00
That's what we need. The recent superficial fad is that Koundjio isn't a 1st rd pick. I'm not into superficial fads, and I'm not buying it. Too much evidence to the contrary.
Kouandjio is the likely pick...If I were picking I would take care of the o-line after round 1 if the top 4 are gone...but if they are sold on Kouandgio's health, its a good need pick.
Kouandjio didn't dominate squat last year. There's discussion his knee was a problem, or that he was giving up his own good positioning to assist his brother at guard. Either way it puts a question mark on him. At 19 if you aren't sure about a guy then you pass.
I still think the team can still fill their offensive line needs in R2-R4. I see Kouandijio as a guard, where I think he will be very good. He is too slow IMO to play tackle. The Dolphins may have a shot an an elite talent at #19 or could trade down perhaps with a team like San Francisco and get more picks.
Watch more tape. He was nearly a consensus All American last year, granted he had a better year in 2012. he gave up 1.5 sacks on something like 300 snaps last year before the bowl game, had a bad bowl game and now there's the typical overreaction. One of the best and most prominent orthopedic surgeons in the world says that his knee checks out fine, that's good enough for me. Dude is a much needed mauler in the running game and he'll be fine in pass pro at RT. DJ Fluker was the #11 pick last year and Kouandjio is the better player.
I'm just not buying that. I'd have some questions as per quickness at LT but at RT he'll be fine.
As a sidenote I was just thinking about Cordy Glenn who was taken 1 pick before Jonathan Martin in 2012, that would have solved our RT problem right there.
Here's some film of Koundjio going against Virginia Tech, which I think gives a good lookk at him as a mauling run blocker and good pass protector. I like this clip because it lets me see not only Koundjio but antoher of my favorites, VT DE James Gayle #99. At 1:10 you can see him make a nice inside move from his LDE position and then he uses his speed, quicks and tracking ability to put good pressure on the QB. What I particularly like is his footwork, those quick feet while in pursuit of the QB remind me of Tank Carradine from FSU and now the 49ers
My preference is still for Misi to suck it up and go to MLB, Dion Jordan to go where he belongs at OLB and draft James Gayle and put him right onto the DE rotation with Wake and Vernon. Also on the play before you can see a pretty interesting MLB Jack Tyler shoot up a middle gap and blow up a running play at 1:00. He might be one to watch in later rounds, as might be a MLB who I'm becoming a fan of, Preston Brown from Louisville.
Mosely (beast mode) or Cooks (another Desean jackson) would be the pick in that mock.
No way we are taking the 3rd or 4th best player at a position at #19. We are not that desperate and Hickey look for other oline options in round 2-4
I don't know which is worse, the jests landing Ebron or us landing the 5th or 6th best OT with injury issues.
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I think Jimmie Ward to the Ravens is a great pick. I had the Ravens in a mock and made the same call. His cover skills are the best of any FS prospect since Earl Thomas (imo). I feel like he's going higher than people think.
It doesn't matter where Kouandjio is ranked in a deep OT draft class, what matters is how good he is or isn't. The 4th ranked OT could easily go #12 overall, that's how it goes. As to the injury reports, edumacate yourself:
Whatever makes you feel better, bubba. A reach is a reach. The draft is deep, but also top heavy. Kouandjio isn't in the same league as Robinson or Matthews. Hell, not even Lewan. Martin brings versatility that K doesn't. Then you add the very real potential of injury issues, not only with his knee, but also the fact that he's played for Alabama against SEC opponents, and you have a reason why he's a reach at that spot. The draft being deep means you can get similar talent with similar risks later on. After Martin, there's a drop off.
A medical report saying a player is A-OK being released just before a draft? Never seen one of those before. Agents and schools will do whatever they can to pump up the value of their players. There's a real life edumacation for you, free of charge.
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Do you have any idea of who Dr. James Andrews is and what his international reputation is? If he's not the most renowned orthopedic surgeon in the world, he's up there.
"Andrews, the team doctor for the Washington Redskins NFL franchise, has consulted with or worked on a Who’s Who of professional athletes in the United States, including Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Michael Jordan, Jack Nicklaus, Adrian Peterson, Albert Pujols, Bo Jackson, Roger Clemens and many more."
Not that long ago Koundjio was considered a solid top 20 pick. What changed more than anything are the whims of perception, and that doesn't concern me. Dude is a solid, solid football player that imo is tailor made for NFL RT. Better player than teammate DJ Fluker who was the #11 overall pick in 2012.
As to your education, now maybe now you've learned that Dr. Andrews isn't some backwoods doctor who's going to sign off on an injury to make a coach, player or agent happy. Look at the pressure that he put on Shanahan as per the RGIII situation- Shanahan took his own counsel instead of listening to Andrews and it cost him his job and RGIII another reconstruction.
As to Lewan, it wasn't long ago that Kouanjio was considered his equal or better. Lewan has excellent straight line speed but a choppy kickslide, and Koundjio is the better power player. I don't know at all that I would take Lewan over Koundjio, especially for RT. All the new opinions of Kouandjio are of a flavor of the month/ go with the crowd mentality that don't examine what's really going on beneath the surface. False knee rumors and he ran a slow 40, bfd. All the new opinions are good for a chuckle, and that's about it.
Cool story. I know who Dr. Andrews is and I'll even buy that the surgery wasn't botched. What I won't buy is that his knee isn't going to cause him problems through his career. Hey, if 2014 was all we were drafting for, sure, sign me up. That's not the case though.
So, there are a few strikes against him IMO, with the biggest one being that I have no interest in drafting straight up RT at 19. Martin is a minor exception due to his versatility, but even then I'm not a huge fan, more indifferent.
As for Lewan, I also have no interest in Incognito Jr, not that he would fall to us anyways.
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Does he fit our scheme? I really don't think he does. He seems a natural fit for a power scheme. If we want to say people use to be consider top 20 than we should be taking Lee at 19 as he was ranked top 5-10 player before.
It's not a fad....2013 tape is 3rd round tape.
ACL injuries are so common now that unless there's a particular problem/complication I don't know that they're such a big deal, especially for an OL. As to the RT position, imo last year Miami showed how critical of a position it really is- if Miami needs a stud RTand one is there at #19, depending on what else is out there I'd say go for it. For me the most intriguing draft story for Miami is our OL needs matched up with how strong the OL and WR classes are. I'm a Zach Martin fan, but even if he's there oneplayer keeps me thinking- WR Brandin Cooks. The intriguing element is the opportunity cost of taking a martin, or a Cooks for that matter, relative to what OTs and WRs will be available in rds 2-3. The problem is that if we don't go OT at #19 then most or maybe all of the top 10 OTs in this draft will likely be gone. You could be looking at the top OTs available at #50 being Jack Mewhort and Billy Turner, and I'm not really comfortable with that. If that were the case I'd probably go with plan B, take Michael Scholfield or Matt Patchan later in the draft. I'd hate to force a pick at #50 in such a deep draft, especially if a guy like Kyle Van Noy is available there.
Where would you rate the 2012 tape? is he better now than DJ Fluker? Where was Fluker drafted and how is he doing?
All that I can say is that I've looked over the 2012 and 2013 tape- 2012 is better, but in 2013 Kouandjio gave up 1.5 sacks before the lousy bowl game in somewhere around 300 pass plays. He's a road grader. I don't see a 3rd round player in the 2013 tape, not even close. And I see a top flight prospect in the 2012 tape. Who was it from OSU who got two sacks on Jake Long? Jake still went #1 overall.
Part of the fun of the draft is differing opinions, judging them against your own because it's fun and also to learn something. I altered my opinion of Tiny Richardson after reading some other opinions, going back to the tape and realizing that those opinion had more validity than mine. No shame there, and it's fun. I like the power and quick feet of Joel Bitonio, but Awsi Dooger gave me something to think about and I'll go back and watch more film. I do it because I enjoy it, and par tof that process is seeing what other people think. That being said, my opinion is that Cyrus Kouandjio is one hell of an OT that could be a GREAT fit for us at RT if his knee checks out, and so far I'm convinced that it does. Dude is a freaking steam roller with pretty darned good lateral movement, and I've been watching him and an amazing Alabama OL for the last few years. He had a few blips last season, but that dude is a very, very good football player and every time I watch him of film I'm reminded of it even more.
The latest craze is Ju'Wuan James, but personally while I like him I see a solid yet unspectacular 2nd to 3rd rd pick. If he and Koundjio are available at #19 and it's one or the other, I'm taking Kouandjio. Just opinions, same as the strong ones I have for Kyle Van Noy, James Gayle, Brandin Cooks, Matt Patchan and Trai Turner. That being said, please identify which games last season besides the Sugar Bowl Koundjio played like a 3rd rounder and i'll go back and look at the tape.
Glad we can drop the unnecessary "edumacation" and my sarcastic responses to it. This is more like it :hi-5:
I have to disagree regarding lasting knee issues, especially with linemen supporting far more weight and needing to be far more mobile in a ZBS. While repairing ACL injuries is far superior to what it once was (sometimes career ending), it still takes a long time for recovery and the risk of re-injury is high (15 times higher if I remember correctly). The latter is what concerns me. Too much of a risk for my blood, especially after last year's draft in which Ireland apparently spent most of his time scouting hospitals.
If for some reason we can't manage to land a RT somewhere in the draft, first, I'd have to question our GM's ability, and second, I'd be okay going with a FA and a developmental guy in the mid-to-late rounds over passing a more talented player out desperation.
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No offense intended, I was kidding around with the edumacation, but it was kind of smarty pants. As to the ACL injuries, I've been through two of them, one of the full blown cut me open type, the other a far less invasive procedure, but the patellar tendon was ravaged in both cases to create the new ACL. I spoke with Dr. Pete Indelicato years ago about flying to Gainesville for the cadaver transplant procedure but decided against it. That being said, the main problem imo is not the damage done to the patellar tendon but rather the subtle nerve damage that the the knee internally is subjected to- balance and leg coordination are compromised to differing degrees and it takes time, bottom line, to fully recover because nerves have to regenerate. 25 years later I can still sctrach one side of my knee and either feel it on the other side of the knee, or in some areas it feels numb. That's how it goes. But imo for an olineman, once they're healed they're good to go, the surgery is usually that good now. If Dr. Andrews signs off on Kouandjio's knee that's good enough for me.
Look, Joe Philbin has pulled out his hair because of the O-line the past 2 years. He has had to put up with slow lumbering guys like John Jerry because of Ireland's historic love of cornfed. Now for the 1st pick of Hickey's career as a GM, Pat Kirwan predicts we get the incredibly slow, big lumbering guy, Kouandjio, who doesn't fit the system and has a fully reconstructed knee that has caused some teams to cross him off their boards. Ain't gonna happen. After Joe's ongoing battle with Ireland, Hickey isn't going to piss him off first pick. It will either be a playmaker WR/TE, mike linebacker who can tackle or an O-lineman who fits the ZBS.
See earlier posts as to the fallacy of the Koundjio knee stories and look at more tape, because Koundjio is not incredibly slow and lumbering, that's another fallacy.
I think it's risky business buying a college guy on old tape. To me his athleticism has been grossly overrated throughout the process, I see a guy who isn't even a fit for our scheme, let alone a plus athlete. He plays on skates, constantly on the ground and has the worst balance I've seen. All of the games I watched to be honest I saw a guy who was overhyped, I looked all over the internet just to find a scouting report that saw things the same way and I think finally people are realizing he isn't as good as they think. To me he's a marginal athlete with no body control and poor lateral mobility. You've stated your angle on the knee injury, but they said the same thing about RGIII. Just my opinion, he's the last guy I'd want at 19. At 50 I'd really have to watch the **** out of his 2012 tape to feel even alright about the pick to be honest.
Dude, first of all RGIII was playing on an injured knee that was previously reconstructed, because Shanahan is an idiot and an a-hole. I was waiting for him to pop his ACL in that game not in a mean way but because i've been through that more than once and having him on the field in that condition was freaking ludicrous. I knew two things in less that a second after RGIII went down- he popped his knee and Shanahan was going to be fired. When it's happened to you, you know what to look for- the twist, hyperextension at that little give of the joint at the moment of truth. I squirmed and recoiled when I saw that go down.
As to Koundjio, reply with the games in which you thought Kouandjio was overrated and I'll take a look. I've heard this before, and from of the tape I've seen and the Alabama games I've watched over the last 3 years I'm not buying it.
As I said it was the whole set of games I came away far from unimpressed, I don't think I'll sway you if you've already watched all of them. If you want to sway me I wouldn't mind checking out his best from 2012 and 2013 in your eyes.
Tell me which games Kouandjio looked like a 3rd rounder and I take another look at the film.
****ing all of them.
Take your pick.
I pulled up the Tennessee game because I've watched less of that game than some others and I'm seeing a mauler in the running game and a very good pass blocking LT. Again, he gave up 1.5 sacks last year before the Sugar Bowl.
This mock was very well done and thought out. I agreed with him all the way up to 19. This is very much how I see the draft going but I must implore Hickey to please go BPA and take Mosley or Beckham if no trade can be found. I would rather gamble on James Hurst and/or Brandon Thomas in the 3rd and 4th then gamble on Cyrus at 19.
Kouandjio ran a 5.59 sec 40 compared to Su'a-Filo's 5.09. Your big boy is huge - 6'7" and 322 lbs with enormous arms but he's slow. I think that we get Martin, Su'a-Filo, Moses, James and Bitonio ahead of Kouandjio.
I'd be more concerned about his 40 time if here were a WR- he's a Tackle. He moves pretty well laterally, that's more important imo. He is what he is, a power OT who is a good pass blocker. His straight ahead speed isn;t a big concern of mine, and he moves pretty fluidly for a big man. Moses ran a 5.35 at the combine, James ran a 4.34, Kouandjio ran 5.42 and a 5:53 at his pro day. His movement skills are fine fro an OT imo, especially RT where he'll probably end up:
That pick is horrible, we can pick up OL help in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, this team needs playmakers on both sides of the ball.
They should take BPA at 19 and Kouandjio isn't one of them.
If Kouandjio is the pick I wont even bother to watch the rest of Hickey' draft.
Hope so. Martin and Su'a are the only two corns I[STRIKE] want[/STRIKE] would be OK with at 19
With respect, I still have concerns about whether he fits the ZBS. If he does and his knee isn't going to shorten his career then OK, but there is no way I support the fitting a square peg in a round hole mentality.
He doesn't fit the ZBS...end of story.
I take an OLman's 40 time with a pinch of salt - for me it's the 10 sec split and in particular the 3 cone drill that are the more important times.
I'd be pretty irritated if we took him at 19.
I'm with ya.
If it panned out that way I'd pick either Beckham Jr, Cooks, Mosley, or even Kyle Fuller, who many here believe to be the best corner in the draft.
I'm less interested in their 40 times than their 10 yard times and broad jump. Those are more indicative of that initial burst of power you want your linemen to have.
Does the guy trying to sell 30,000 empty seats, get a say in this? I'm guessing he does and that Cyrus won't sell many. I say we vote on this!
Thank you god!!! Have fun in Buffalo!