Pat White, the deep ball and other options

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by jim1, Jul 13, 2009.

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  1. jim1

    jim1 Pro Bowler

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    I was watching this video and thinking that defensive coordinatiors are going to have their hands full with Pat White this year. Specifically, with Chad Pennington's arm strength limitations, I'm wondering if we'll be seeing more of him than expected. He throws a great deep ball, which will open up things for Teddy Ginn. He can obviously run, so good luck to CB's and Safeties in terms of providing both run/scramble support and covering Ginn deep. Then you have Ricky Williams as a consideration with an option pitch and you have to account for Ronnie Brown, with some of the best hands in the NFL among RB's, either going in motion or sliding out of the backfield. Then you have Fasano and Martin at TE to contend with, and add in Patrick Turner and the shiftiness of Bess/Camarillo.

    The halfback option pass always seemed under used to me, and now with this wildcat, single wing formation or whatever you want to call it, I can see why the Fins made their move with White- it has to be the right guy running the show- Ronnie Brown wasn't it. Any defensive weaknesses can be exploited now and how do you cover everyone if the right guy can make the right calls, run and throw deep? And, as per the Bill Walsh single wing post from a day or so ago, White probably won't be in enough plays to get the crap beaten out of him, and Pennington gets to stay a bit fresher as well. And when Pennington is gone, the it's Henne and White doing the same thing, the main difference being that Henne can throw deep along with White. Good luck to opposing defenses, this is going to be interesting.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0YPDFmcp5Y
     
  2. Dr. Phin

    Dr. Phin Scout Team

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    I don't think we are going to be seeing him throw many long balls, if at all. I expect him to be used mostly in the red zone, which would limit him to shorter passes only.
     
  3. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I think one of White's biggest impacts on the WC will be as a decoy. I follow USC fairly closely and grew up in San Diego, so I have a natural interest in R. Bush (one of my best friends got smoked by him in the 100 or 200 - forget which). Watching his first year, he struggled, but I was amazed at how much attention he garnered. He opened up the passing game and running lanes for Deuce (when they were both on the field). Just the threat of his explosiveness forced the hand of opposing defenses.

    I think White may have a similar effect in the WC. R. Brown faking a sweep to Ricky wasn't that scary. Teams had to secure the corner, but didn't have to worry about their depth. A sweep to White is much scarier. They have to worry about the run and the pass.
     
  4. oasis

    oasis Lost in the fog

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    Agree with j-off about the decoy role, but you've got to do it for real once or twice before teams get scared of you. That means we've got to see Pat White razzle-dazzle be effective before he's an effective decoy. I'm not sure a D-coordinator is going to be scared about *possibilities* given White's college highlight reel. Maybe Bush had an effect without actually accomplishing much (I don't remember his first games), but he was a much more hyped-up offensive weapon than White is.

    That all being said, I do hope he does prove effective so he can also be a good decoy.
     
  5. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    You're absolutely right. I probably shouldn't assume that White will have at least some success in the Spread or WC, but I feel that he'll have at least two or three plays that work right in his comfort zone. But, he'll definitely have to show something before people worry too much about him.
     
  6. Dr. Phin

    Dr. Phin Scout Team

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    Bush is able to be used as a decoy because he is part of their normal offensive packages. When Bush then lines up as a receiver or goes in motion, it surprises the defense and they do not always have the necessary personnel to counter the formations. White will not have the same impact, since he will not normally be on the field. His presence in the huddle will be a key which will allow the defense to substitute to counter any packages we use him in.
     
  7. gfish24

    gfish24 Rookie

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    If he can grasp the offense in training camp, be accurate and make smart decisions out of the wildcat, we'll see quite a bit of him
     
  8. donart

    donart Italia!!!

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    The kid has talent but the only QB throwing long balls this year will be Chad...Chad Henne that is. I can see White on special teams returning punts and KO. He will be used in the offence but it will be situational this year. It is nice to know that we have a good third QB if needed.He is very talented and fast but the NFL is too.
     
  9. patswho?

    patswho? winner

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    Pat is a lefty?

    i didn't know
     
  10. dolfan94

    dolfan94 Scout Team

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    Another thing I like about him is that he's a lefty. Defenses might not be used to playing too many lefties. I dont play football so I dont know, but does it make a difference? The QB's blindside is different, so passrushers have to change sides, etc.
     
  11. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Substitutions in this case don't matter. Post-snap, a defense will have to account for White. White has the speed to take the corner on a sweep and the ability to throw the ball down the field. Those abilities have to be accounted for. If Brown takes a direct snap and fakes the ball to White, he should have some room.
     
  12. jim1

    jim1 Pro Bowler

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    I think that we'll see Pat White going deep more than once. That's part of the reason why we took him so high, to develop other weapons and opportunities within the wildcat scheme.
     
  13. ccdolfan

    ccdolfan Rookie

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    PW will go deep every now and then, even if he just throws the hell out it (kind of like a throw away). Just to keep the Defenses honest.

    Also, if you really think about it with all the miss direction and options in the Wlidcat/Wildpat someone will eventually be open/make a play on a deep ball from PW. Remember the flea flicker out of the Wildcat from CP to Cobbs, that was a pretty easy throw for CP (cobbs had all day). I see more of that for '09.
     
  14. Dr. Phin

    Dr. Phin Scout Team

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    One of the most important aspects of the Wild Cat and Bush, is that the defense is not able to determine a personnel package based on the players in the huddle. With White, the defense will know to switch defenses as soon as they see him.
     
  15. marinotoclayton

    marinotoclayton Pro Bowler

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    +Not only that receivers have to adjust for a left handed QB. And as it is I don't think Pat will be used to throw long balls. He might be used more in short yardage. And he will still have to get used to playbook. A first year Qb will be learning plays more than anything. So his time under center will be limited.
     
  16. jim1

    jim1 Pro Bowler

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    Not if he lines up at WR.
     
  17. 3rdandinches

    3rdandinches Seasoned Veteran

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    If training camp doesn't go better for him then the OTA's then we won't even have to speculate about what will never happen and that's him seeing the field.
     
  18. thefranchisedef

    thefranchisedef A True Fan

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    my thing with pat white is that he has 2 speeds, still and fast.. he reaches his fastest when he takes off.. he has acceleration that you can't teach. he is looking at the person behind the guy in front of him because he knows he is going to get passed them. I believe pat white was made for the wildcat. he can draw the defense in, and beat them over the top.. I can't wait till the season starts!
     
  19. Lord Of Miami

    Lord Of Miami A True Fan

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    That would hold some water if they were playing on using him the same way on " Game Day" that they did in the OTA's.

    One would think that would be very clear to just about everyone, but i guess not.
     
  20. jim1

    jim1 Pro Bowler

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    PW is known for throwing a good long ball- what better way to keep a defense facing the wildcat honest than to unleash a few? The real and substantial threat of it alone would make the effort worth the while. If no defense respects the pass, the wildcat suffers- that's why we drafted White so high. We didn't pick him in the 2nd round to be primarily a WR- he's a QB who will specialize in the wildcat. To not use him in the wildcat throwing deep would be a waste and would make the opposing defenses job incredibly easier. It would also mean that we took him too high in the draft and would have been better served with Sintim, Barwin or Unger. The dude will throw, and he'll throw deep.
     
  21. Lord Of Miami

    Lord Of Miami A True Fan

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    Omar was even saying what a good deep ball he throws.He said something like it's one of the best he's ever seen.
     
  22. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    He has yet to really even work as a WR. Before he was drafted, he said he hadn't played any WR in 6 years...basically since he was halfway through high school. During all of their practices so far, White has been working with the QB unit, not the WR unit.

    At some point we should stop outfoxing ourselves. He could get a little time at slot WR but he's not dangerous enough there to pose any problems. He barely knows the first thing about running the route tree and the Dolphins aren't exactly giving him a 'crash course' in that area while they have him throw footballs with the QB unit and be in the meeting rooms with the QBs all the time.

    The problem that Dr. Phin brings up is a real problem, but maybe a little overstated. Teams could have easily seen that Miami had Wildcat personnel in the football game any time we had Ricky Williams and Ronnie Brown on the field at the same time. A lot of Miami's Wildcat plays saw Ricky Williams, Ronnie Brown AND Patrick Cobbs on the field at the same time...and if a 3-HB personnel package doesn't scream "Wildcat" then I don't know what does. So teams could already tell by the personnel package that we were putting the Wildcat on the field.

    The key is what else you can do with those personnel packages. For instance, with the 2-HB and 3-HB formations, I remember back in 2005 when Miami under Nick Saban would go into those Ricky & Ronnie formations (they called it 'hippo') and defenses considered that a PASSING formation. Does anyone remember the interception that cost us the Falcons game at the end? Remember after the game when the Falcons defenders felt they had the jump on our play calling because they figured out through film study that when we went into a 2-HB personnel package, it was a pass play something like 80-90% of the time? I remember that. I also remember **** Vermeil saying that whenever a team sent out two halfbacks, defenses would just send out their nickel personnel because unless one of those two halfbacks could legitimately lead block, it is not a strong running personnel group. It's a stronger passing personnel group.

    Miami didn't do a good job of selling the run out of the 2-HB personnel grouping. They were able to execute some successful '90 Flip' type plays (fake to the upback, toss sweep to the halfback)...but that wasn't enough. This is where the Wildcat sort of stood the NFL on its head a little bit. They turned dual and even triple halfback personnel groupings into POWER running...with mismatches to boot. If **** Vermeil was still coaching and saw Ricky and Ronnie coming onto the field at the same time, he could go ahead and send his nickel personnel out there, but then Miami goes Wildcat and cuts through it like a hot knife through butter. On the other hand, if you swing the other way on defense, let's say every time you saw Ricky and Ronnie on the field together you sent out 3 safeties and 1 corner...or an extra linebacker, something like that...then Miami can just line up with Pennington in the gun, Ricky and Ronnie in the slots, and whoops...they've got a strong pass grouping against your weak pass defense grouping.

    So anyway, back to Pat White. He's working as a QB. It seems natural that to get the best ambiguity in the personnel packages, Pat White should be working as a WR. That way, he comes on the field, and Miami could be trying to pass the ball normally with White in the slot. But I personally think that somewhere along the way, Miami realized that this is a guy that hasn't played WR in 6 years...that doesn't have 4.4 speed, that doesn't have awesome agility drills, and has truly untested hands.

    Is he a more compelling WR, or is he a more compelling dropback QB?

    That's your question. My answer is by far he is a more compelling dropback QB. He's got skills that translate at that position, he has physical ability in his feet that is rare for that position, he has field awareness, presence, leadership, an awareness of downs and distances, quarter, score, everything that Pennington always preaches. He has good mechanics and drops a very pretty deep ball. He has some accuracy, maybe not Pennington accuracy but he does have accuracy.

    What does he have that makes him a compelling WR? No experience. Untested hands. Average speed. Below average agility. Average size.

    So if you're trying to make him amphibious...does it make more sense to make him a cross between a WR and a Wildcat QB? Or does it make more sense to make him a cross between a QB and a Wildcat QB?

    I think it's the latter, and that is why they're working him at the QB position and not the WR position. I think that when he comes on the field, if defenses start to place a "Wildcat" personnel package on the field, Miami will poke and prod that defensive personnel grouping for any weakness to their NORMAL passing and running attack. If the defense tosses out a specialized Wildcat personnel grouping because Pat White is on the field, what happens when White just lines up under Center and hands the ball off to Ronnie Brown on a stretch or power run play? What happens when Pat White goes shotgun empty backfield and starts passing it to the slot guys? Is Ted Ginn now single covered on the deep vertical?

    Personally, I think teams will want to test Pat White as a Wildcat QB first. Let him run those Wildcat plays and see if he can be as effective a runner as Ronnie Brown was. Don't send out special personnel or anything like that. Don't crowd 11 men toward the line of scrimmage. See if Pat can run the ball like Ricky and Ronnie did, and don't let him have the easy pass. If THAT is successful, THEN you as a defense have problems. But it all starts there.
     
  23. jim1

    jim1 Pro Bowler

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    My point was that opposing defenses don't necessarily have to know what we're going to do when White steps on the field. He could play some WR to throw defenses off, same as Pennington swinging out wide- only White should be much better out there. But my guess is that would be a minor role. He should be a huge improvement over Ronnie Brown in the QB role in the wildcat, and I think that he'll throw plenty of balls out of that package, long balls included. And you're right- defenses will have their hands full if White can read the defenses and exploit any coverage mismatches that opposing defenses might provide, Teddy Ginn going deep included.

    Also, I don't know why Pat White didn't do so well in the agility drills, but he looked awfully quick to me on the field in college. Hopefully that translates to the pro game as well.
     
  24. The Finster

    The Finster Wedge Buster

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    White's arm is not as strong as Henne's, why not Henne, if that is what your concerned about.
     
  25. jim1

    jim1 Pro Bowler

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    Why not Henne what?
     
  26. The Finster

    The Finster Wedge Buster

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    The deep ball, arm strength.
     
  27. jim1

    jim1 Pro Bowler

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    Because Henne wouldn't be an effective runner in the wildcat. That's what Pat White brings, a great running QB and an effective passer with a really good deep ball- he'll hopefully drive defenses nuts out of that formation. I'm looking forward to seeing Henne fire some deep balls out of the base offense, when his time arrives.
     
  28. fishypete

    fishypete FinHeaven Elite

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    I'm not sure what you are looking for when it comes to White as his agility tests;


    Agility Tests

    Campus: 4.45 in the 40-yard dash … 1.53 10-yard dash … 2.56 20-yard dash … 4.18 20-yard shuttle … 6.92 three-cone drill … 31-inch vertical jump … 9'6" broad jump … Bench pressed 225 pounds 17 times … 32 3/4-inch arm length … 9 1/2-inch hands.

    Combine: 4.42 in the 40-yard dash … 1.60 10-yard dash … 2.63 20-yard dash … 4.42 20-yard shuttle … 7.06 three-cone drill … 35-inch vertical jump … 9'9" broad jump … Did not participate in 225-pound bench press … 33 1/2-inch arm length … 9 1/4-inch hands.

    We're talking about a QB....Not a receiver or even a running back.

    Here's a few top rated QB's agaility tests;

    Josh Freeman

    Campus: 4.76 in the 40-yard dash … 1.62 10-yard dash … 2.72 20-yard dash … 4.34 20-yard shuttle … 7.21 three-cone drill … 30-inch vertical jump … 9'7" broad jump … 335-pound bench press … 480-pound squat … 315-pound power clean … 32 5/8-inch arm length … 9 5/8-inch hands.
    Combine: 4.94 in the 40-yard dash … 1.66 10-yard dash … 2.86 20-yard dash … 4.43 20-yard shuttle … 7.11 three-cone drill … 33 1/2-inch vertical jump … 9'11" broad jump … Did not participate in 225-pound bench press … 32 3/4-inch arm length … 10-inch hands.



    Sanchez


    Campus: 4.85 in the 40-yard dash … 1.71 10-yard dash … 2.82 20-yard dash … 4.35 20-yard shuttle … 7.28 three-cone drill … 29 1/2-inch vertical jump … 8'8" broad jump … 335-pound bench press … 470-pound squat … 295-pound hang clean … 31 3/4-inch arm length … 9 5/8-inch hands.
    Combine: 4.92 in the 40-yard dash … 1.63 10-yard dash … 2.81 20-yard dash … 4.21 20-yard shuttle … 7.06 three-cone drill … 32 1/2-inch vertical jump … 9'8" broad jump … Did not participate in 225-pound bench press … 33 1/2-inch arm length … 10 1/2-inch hands.


    Stafford



    Campus: 4.87 in the 40-yard dash … 1.67 10-yard dash … 2.78 20-yard dash … 4.56 20-yard shuttle … 7.20 three-cone drill … 27 1/2-inch vertical jump … 8'11" broad jump … 32 1/8-inch arm length … 9 5/8-inch hands.
    Combine: 4.84 in the 40-yard dash … 1.65 10-yard dash … 2.75 20-yard dash … 4.47 20-yard shuttle … 7.06 three-cone drill … Did not participate in 225-pound bench press … 30 1/2-inch vertical jump … 8'11" broad jump … 33 1/4-inch arm length … 10-inch hands.

    McGee

    Combine: 4.61 in the 40-yard dash … 1.53 10-yard dash … 2.63 20-yard dash … 4.49 20-yard shuttle … 7.34 three-cone drill … 33-inch vertical jump … 9'4" broad jump … 31 5/8-inch arm length … 8 1/2-inch hands.
     
  29. jim1

    jim1 Pro Bowler

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    I was referring to another poster who commented on White's so so agility tests. All I know is that when I saw him he looked very fast and extremely agile, great lateral quicks.
     
  30. fishypete

    fishypete FinHeaven Elite

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    I totally agree!!

    Whites talent is born with...not learned. Even some running backs and receivers that have slower 40 times...have quick feet that make them dangerous.
     
  31. nyjunc

    nyjunc A True Fan

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    I saw mostly great runs w/ one nice semi-deep pass at the 3:48 mark.
     
  32. fishypete

    fishypete FinHeaven Elite

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  33. jim1

    jim1 Pro Bowler

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    That screen play to Brown- Ron Brace tracked him down almost 35 yards down the field. Ouch.
     
  34. nyjunc

    nyjunc A True Fan

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    :55 was underthrown, would be picked off more often than not in the NFL

    1:38 was not a deep ball

    2:00 not a deep ball though a nice pass

    2:52 not a deep ball

    4:08 not a deep ball

    I think the angles are throwing you off. he had a few nice throws, none on deep balls and balls that floated a tad that he'd struggle w/ against NFL DBs.
     
  35. nyjunc

    nyjunc A True Fan

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    In the clip you showed he had a couple of nice practice throws but I can'tt ake practice throws seriously.

    1:54 underthrown deep ball to wide open WR in EZ.
     
  36. DuderinoN703

    DuderinoN703 I can get you a toe Finheaven VIP Donator

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    No problem. Sanchez was clocked at throwing a ball 343 yards, so at least the Jets are set.
     
  37. nyjunc

    nyjunc A True Fan

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    This has nothing to do w/ Sanchez. A clip was posted saying he had a nice deep ball and clearly in those clips he doesn't- at least not NFL caliber. Post a Sanchez clip and I'll give my honest assessment of him as well.
     
  38. DuderinoN703

    DuderinoN703 I can get you a toe Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I don't give enough of a damn about Sanchez or how far he throws it. I did see White throw a 45 yd TD to the back of the end zone. I consider that deep.
     
  39. nyjunc

    nyjunc A True Fan

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    It's not about how far he throws it, it is about placement. he threw it to the bakc of the EZ well short of his wide open WR and made an easy catch a difficult one b/c he was short on it.
     
  40. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    The defender had his back completely turned to the quarterback. Talk to an actual football guy and he'll tell you the underthrow when a singled up defender has his back square to you is one of the safest passes you can throw.

    Ball traveled 35-40 yards vertically up the field before the receiver caught it. Yes, it was a deep ball. It was the same route that Miles Austin caught from Tony Romo on SNF against the Packers and the commentators openly referred to it as a deep ball.

    Borderline. Looks about 25 yards on a deep post pattern, which qualifies as a vertical route.

    It isn't a deep vertical but the ball did travel about 20-25 yards up the field.

    If you don't see that as a deep vertical, then you don't know what you're seeing.

    I think the angles are throwing you off, actually, because you're having trouble telling what is a vertical pass and what is not, and you also seem to be having trouble telling how far up the field a ball is traveling. The pass that you noted as a deep ball traveled up the field maybe 30-35 yards. And yet at the 1:38 second mark he throws a pass about the same distance up the field on a vertical route and you say it's not a deep ball. And then he throws 25 yards up the field and it's not a deep ball. He throws on a vertical pattern and it's not a deep ball.

    I don't think the problem is that those throws aren't deep balls. I think the problem is those balls aren't thrown by Sanchez.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 14, 2009
  41. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    He threw that ball perfectly. Any further up the field and the receiver might not have been able to get his feet in bounds.
     
  42. DuderinoN703

    DuderinoN703 I can get you a toe Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Or that White is a Dolphin so.........
     
  43. nyjunc

    nyjunc A True Fan

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    Yeah it was safe but he turned an easy play into a difficult one. Had he thrown on time and w/ a little more velocity the defender is nowhere near that football.

    2nd one was not a deep ball. It was about 30-35 yds in the air. The LOS was at the 20, he dropped back about 6 yards and hit him at midfield.

    last one he threw from the 18 and it was caught about 5 yards in the EZ, clearly not a deep ball. That was about as easy a throw to make as there is.

    This isn't about Sanchez. I am seeing a guy who is not a good passer and you guys are acting like he's Dan Marino. Those are not NFL caliber passes.


    He was WIDE open, if he throws it on time and gets it there on time he hits the WR in stride heading into the EZ. That was NOT a good throw, in the NFL w/ better athletes that ball is either broken up or picked.
     
  44. nyjunc

    nyjunc A True Fan

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    Take the blinders off, pretend Miami didn't draft him, pretend he isn't attached to any team and tell what you see.
     
  45. nyjunc

    nyjunc A True Fan

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  46. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I see a guy that throws an accurate deep vertical with great touch. And I said so before the draft, when I also said that I didn't want Miami to draft him because I feel he's too small at 200 pounds to be a reliable runner in the Wildcat.
     
  47. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I see a guy that is 6'2" and plays like he's 6'0". And I said that before the draft as well.
     
  48. nyjunc

    nyjunc A True Fan

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    Do you see an NFL caliber QB when looking at the way he throws the football?
     
  49. nyjunc

    nyjunc A True Fan

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    Do you see a difference in the way the 2 throw the football?
     
  50. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    The way the game is played right now, I see a career backup, a Seneca Wallace.

    But I think part of the draw here is that the Wildcat has switched around a few equations, and that the spread option has finally entered the NFL.

    If the spread option becomes 20% of any team's playbook, and/or the season gets extended to 18 games, Pat White becomes more valuable than a career backup.
     

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