Pat White, the deep ball and other options | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Pat White, the deep ball and other options

One of the most important aspects of the Wild Cat and Bush, is that the defense is not able to determine a personnel package based on the players in the huddle. With White, the defense will know to switch defenses as soon as they see him.

Not if he lines up at WR.
 
If training camp doesn't go better for him then the OTA's then we won't even have to speculate about what will never happen and that's him seeing the field.
 
my thing with pat white is that he has 2 speeds, still and fast.. he reaches his fastest when he takes off.. he has acceleration that you can't teach. he is looking at the person behind the guy in front of him because he knows he is going to get passed them. I believe pat white was made for the wildcat. he can draw the defense in, and beat them over the top.. I can't wait till the season starts!
 
If training camp doesn't go better for him then the OTA's then we won't even have to speculate about what will never happen and that's him seeing the field.

That would hold some water if they were playing on using him the same way on " Game Day" that they did in the OTA's.

One would think that would be very clear to just about everyone, but i guess not.
 
+Not only that receivers have to adjust for a left handed QB. And as it is I don't think Pat will be used to throw long balls. He might be used more in short yardage. And he will still have to get used to playbook. A first year Qb will be learning plays more than anything. So his time under center will be limited.

PW is known for throwing a good long ball- what better way to keep a defense facing the wildcat honest than to unleash a few? The real and substantial threat of it alone would make the effort worth the while. If no defense respects the pass, the wildcat suffers- that's why we drafted White so high. We didn't pick him in the 2nd round to be primarily a WR- he's a QB who will specialize in the wildcat. To not use him in the wildcat throwing deep would be a waste and would make the opposing defenses job incredibly easier. It would also mean that we took him too high in the draft and would have been better served with Sintim, Barwin or Unger. The dude will throw, and he'll throw deep.
 
PW is known for throwing a good long ball- what better way to keep a defense facing the wildcat honest than to unleash a few? The real and substantial threat of it alone would make the effort worth the while. If no defense respects the pass, the wildcat suffers- that's why we drafted White so high. We didn't pick him in the 2nd round to be primarily a WR- he's a QB who will specialize in the wildcat. To not use him in the wildcat throwing deep would be a waste and would make the opposing defenses job incredibly easier. It would also mean that we took him too high in the draft and would have been better served with Sintim, Barwin or Unger. The dude will throw, and he'll throw deep.

Omar was even saying what a good deep ball he throws.He said something like it's one of the best he's ever seen.
 
Not if he lines up at WR.

He has yet to really even work as a WR. Before he was drafted, he said he hadn't played any WR in 6 years...basically since he was halfway through high school. During all of their practices so far, White has been working with the QB unit, not the WR unit.

At some point we should stop outfoxing ourselves. He could get a little time at slot WR but he's not dangerous enough there to pose any problems. He barely knows the first thing about running the route tree and the Dolphins aren't exactly giving him a 'crash course' in that area while they have him throw footballs with the QB unit and be in the meeting rooms with the QBs all the time.

The problem that Dr. Phin brings up is a real problem, but maybe a little overstated. Teams could have easily seen that Miami had Wildcat personnel in the football game any time we had Ricky Williams and Ronnie Brown on the field at the same time. A lot of Miami's Wildcat plays saw Ricky Williams, Ronnie Brown AND Patrick Cobbs on the field at the same time...and if a 3-HB personnel package doesn't scream "Wildcat" then I don't know what does. So teams could already tell by the personnel package that we were putting the Wildcat on the field.

The key is what else you can do with those personnel packages. For instance, with the 2-HB and 3-HB formations, I remember back in 2005 when Miami under Nick Saban would go into those Ricky & Ronnie formations (they called it 'hippo') and defenses considered that a PASSING formation. Does anyone remember the interception that cost us the Falcons game at the end? Remember after the game when the Falcons defenders felt they had the jump on our play calling because they figured out through film study that when we went into a 2-HB personnel package, it was a pass play something like 80-90% of the time? I remember that. I also remember Dick Vermeil saying that whenever a team sent out two halfbacks, defenses would just send out their nickel personnel because unless one of those two halfbacks could legitimately lead block, it is not a strong running personnel group. It's a stronger passing personnel group.

Miami didn't do a good job of selling the run out of the 2-HB personnel grouping. They were able to execute some successful '90 Flip' type plays (fake to the upback, toss sweep to the halfback)...but that wasn't enough. This is where the Wildcat sort of stood the NFL on its head a little bit. They turned dual and even triple halfback personnel groupings into POWER running...with mismatches to boot. If Dick Vermeil was still coaching and saw Ricky and Ronnie coming onto the field at the same time, he could go ahead and send his nickel personnel out there, but then Miami goes Wildcat and cuts through it like a hot knife through butter. On the other hand, if you swing the other way on defense, let's say every time you saw Ricky and Ronnie on the field together you sent out 3 safeties and 1 corner...or an extra linebacker, something like that...then Miami can just line up with Pennington in the gun, Ricky and Ronnie in the slots, and whoops...they've got a strong pass grouping against your weak pass defense grouping.

So anyway, back to Pat White. He's working as a QB. It seems natural that to get the best ambiguity in the personnel packages, Pat White should be working as a WR. That way, he comes on the field, and Miami could be trying to pass the ball normally with White in the slot. But I personally think that somewhere along the way, Miami realized that this is a guy that hasn't played WR in 6 years...that doesn't have 4.4 speed, that doesn't have awesome agility drills, and has truly untested hands.

Is he a more compelling WR, or is he a more compelling dropback QB?

That's your question. My answer is by far he is a more compelling dropback QB. He's got skills that translate at that position, he has physical ability in his feet that is rare for that position, he has field awareness, presence, leadership, an awareness of downs and distances, quarter, score, everything that Pennington always preaches. He has good mechanics and drops a very pretty deep ball. He has some accuracy, maybe not Pennington accuracy but he does have accuracy.

What does he have that makes him a compelling WR? No experience. Untested hands. Average speed. Below average agility. Average size.

So if you're trying to make him amphibious...does it make more sense to make him a cross between a WR and a Wildcat QB? Or does it make more sense to make him a cross between a QB and a Wildcat QB?

I think it's the latter, and that is why they're working him at the QB position and not the WR position. I think that when he comes on the field, if defenses start to place a "Wildcat" personnel package on the field, Miami will poke and prod that defensive personnel grouping for any weakness to their NORMAL passing and running attack. If the defense tosses out a specialized Wildcat personnel grouping because Pat White is on the field, what happens when White just lines up under Center and hands the ball off to Ronnie Brown on a stretch or power run play? What happens when Pat White goes shotgun empty backfield and starts passing it to the slot guys? Is Ted Ginn now single covered on the deep vertical?

Personally, I think teams will want to test Pat White as a Wildcat QB first. Let him run those Wildcat plays and see if he can be as effective a runner as Ronnie Brown was. Don't send out special personnel or anything like that. Don't crowd 11 men toward the line of scrimmage. See if Pat can run the ball like Ricky and Ronnie did, and don't let him have the easy pass. If THAT is successful, THEN you as a defense have problems. But it all starts there.
 
He has yet to really even work as a WR. Before he was drafted, he said he hadn't played any WR in 6 years...basically since he was halfway through high school. During all of their practices so far, White has been working with the QB unit, not the WR unit.

At some point we should stop outfoxing ourselves. He could get a little time at slot WR but he's not dangerous enough there to pose any problems. He barely knows the first thing about running the route tree and the Dolphins aren't exactly giving him a 'crash course' in that area while they have him throw footballs with the QB unit and be in the meeting rooms with the QBs all the time.

The problem that Dr. Phin brings up is a real problem, but maybe a little overstated. Teams could have easily seen that Miami had Wildcat personnel in the football game any time we had Ricky Williams and Ronnie Brown on the field at the same time. A lot of Miami's Wildcat plays saw Ricky Williams, Ronnie Brown AND Patrick Cobbs on the field at the same time...and if a 3-HB personnel package doesn't scream "Wildcat" then I don't know what does. So teams could already tell by the personnel package that we were putting the Wildcat on the field.

The key is what else you can do with those personnel packages. For instance, with the 2-HB and 3-HB formations, I remember back in 2005 when Miami under Nick Saban would go into those Ricky & Ronnie formations (they called it 'hippo') and defenses considered that a PASSING formation. Does anyone remember the interception that cost us the Falcons game at the end? Remember after the game when the Falcons defenders felt they had the jump on our play calling because they figured out through film study that when we went into a 2-HB personnel package, it was a pass play something like 80-90% of the time? I remember that. I also remember Dick Vermeil saying that whenever a team sent out two halfbacks, defenses would just send out their nickel personnel because unless one of those two halfbacks could legitimately lead block, it is not a strong running personnel group. It's a stronger passing personnel group.

Miami didn't do a good job of selling the run out of the 2-HB personnel grouping. They were able to execute some successful '90 Flip' type plays (fake to the upback, toss sweep to the halfback)...but that wasn't enough. This is where the Wildcat sort of stood the NFL on its head a little bit. They turned dual and even triple halfback personnel groupings into POWER running...with mismatches to boot. If Dick Vermeil was still coaching and saw Ricky and Ronnie coming onto the field at the same time, he could go ahead and send his nickel personnel out there, but then Miami goes Wildcat and cuts through it like a hot knife through butter. On the other hand, if you swing the other way on defense, let's say every time you saw Ricky and Ronnie on the field together you sent out 3 safeties and 1 corner...or an extra linebacker, something like that...then Miami can just line up with Pennington in the gun, Ricky and Ronnie in the slots, and whoops...they've got a strong pass grouping against your weak pass defense grouping.

So anyway, back to Pat White. He's working as a QB. It seems natural that to get the best ambiguity in the personnel packages, Pat White should be working as a WR. That way, he comes on the field, and Miami could be trying to pass the ball normally with White in the slot. But I personally think that somewhere along the way, Miami realized that this is a guy that hasn't played WR in 6 years...that doesn't have 4.4 speed, that doesn't have awesome agility drills, and has truly untested hands.

Is he a more compelling WR, or is he a more compelling dropback QB?

That's your question. My answer is by far he is a more compelling dropback QB. He's got skills that translate at that position, he has physical ability in his feet that is rare for that position, he has field awareness, presence, leadership, an awareness of downs and distances, quarter, score, everything that Pennington always preaches. He has good mechanics and drops a very pretty deep ball. He has some accuracy, maybe not Pennington accuracy but he does have accuracy.

What does he have that makes him a compelling WR? No experience. Untested hands. Average speed. Below average agility. Average size.

So if you're trying to make him amphibious...does it make more sense to make him a cross between a WR and a Wildcat QB? Or does it make more sense to make him a cross between a QB and a Wildcat QB?

I think it's the latter, and that is why they're working him at the QB position and not the WR position. I think that when he comes on the field, if defenses start to place a "Wildcat" personnel package on the field, Miami will poke and prod that defensive personnel grouping for any weakness to their NORMAL passing and running attack. If the defense tosses out a specialized Wildcat personnel grouping because Pat White is on the field, what happens when White just lines up under Center and hands the ball off to Ronnie Brown on a stretch or power run play? What happens when Pat White goes shotgun empty backfield and starts passing it to the slot guys? Is Ted Ginn now single covered on the deep vertical?

Personally, I think teams will want to test Pat White as a Wildcat QB first. Let him run those Wildcat plays and see if he can be as effective a runner as Ronnie Brown was. Don't send out special personnel or anything like that. Don't crowd 11 men toward the line of scrimmage. See if Pat can run the ball like Ricky and Ronnie did, and don't let him have the easy pass. If THAT is successful, THEN you as a defense have problems. But it all starts there.

My point was that opposing defenses don't necessarily have to know what we're going to do when White steps on the field. He could play some WR to throw defenses off, same as Pennington swinging out wide- only White should be much better out there. But my guess is that would be a minor role. He should be a huge improvement over Ronnie Brown in the QB role in the wildcat, and I think that he'll throw plenty of balls out of that package, long balls included. And you're right- defenses will have their hands full if White can read the defenses and exploit any coverage mismatches that opposing defenses might provide, Teddy Ginn going deep included.

Also, I don't know why Pat White didn't do so well in the agility drills, but he looked awfully quick to me on the field in college. Hopefully that translates to the pro game as well.
 
White's arm is not as strong as Henne's, why not Henne, if that is what your concerned about.
 
The deep ball, arm strength.

Because Henne wouldn't be an effective runner in the wildcat. That's what Pat White brings, a great running QB and an effective passer with a really good deep ball- he'll hopefully drive defenses nuts out of that formation. I'm looking forward to seeing Henne fire some deep balls out of the base offense, when his time arrives.
 
My point was that opposing defenses don't necessarily have to know what we're going to do when White steps on the field. He could play some WR to throw defenses off, same as Pennington swinging out wide- only White should be much better out there. But my guess is that would be a minor role. He should be a huge improvement over Ronnie Brown in the QB role in the wildcat, and I think that he'll throw plenty of balls out of that package, long balls included. And you're right- defenses will have their hands full if White can read the defenses and exploit any coverage mismatches that opposing defenses might provide, Teddy Ginn going deep included.

Also, I don't know why Pat White didn't do so well in the agility drills, but he looked awfully quick to me on the field in college. Hopefully that translates to the pro game as well.

I'm not sure what you are looking for when it comes to White as his agility tests;


Agility Tests

Campus: 4.45 in the 40-yard dash … 1.53 10-yard dash … 2.56 20-yard dash … 4.18 20-yard shuttle … 6.92 three-cone drill … 31-inch vertical jump … 9'6" broad jump … Bench pressed 225 pounds 17 times … 32 3/4-inch arm length … 9 1/2-inch hands.

Combine: 4.42 in the 40-yard dash … 1.60 10-yard dash … 2.63 20-yard dash … 4.42 20-yard shuttle … 7.06 three-cone drill … 35-inch vertical jump … 9'9" broad jump … Did not participate in 225-pound bench press … 33 1/2-inch arm length … 9 1/4-inch hands.

We're talking about a QB....Not a receiver or even a running back.

Here's a few top rated QB's agaility tests;

Josh Freeman

Campus: 4.76 in the 40-yard dash … 1.62 10-yard dash … 2.72 20-yard dash … 4.34 20-yard shuttle … 7.21 three-cone drill … 30-inch vertical jump … 9'7" broad jump … 335-pound bench press … 480-pound squat … 315-pound power clean … 32 5/8-inch arm length … 9 5/8-inch hands.
Combine: 4.94 in the 40-yard dash … 1.66 10-yard dash … 2.86 20-yard dash … 4.43 20-yard shuttle … 7.11 three-cone drill … 33 1/2-inch vertical jump … 9'11" broad jump … Did not participate in 225-pound bench press … 32 3/4-inch arm length … 10-inch hands.



Sanchez


Campus: 4.85 in the 40-yard dash … 1.71 10-yard dash … 2.82 20-yard dash … 4.35 20-yard shuttle … 7.28 three-cone drill … 29 1/2-inch vertical jump … 8'8" broad jump … 335-pound bench press … 470-pound squat … 295-pound hang clean … 31 3/4-inch arm length … 9 5/8-inch hands.
Combine: 4.92 in the 40-yard dash … 1.63 10-yard dash … 2.81 20-yard dash … 4.21 20-yard shuttle … 7.06 three-cone drill … 32 1/2-inch vertical jump … 9'8" broad jump … Did not participate in 225-pound bench press … 33 1/2-inch arm length … 10 1/2-inch hands.


Stafford



Campus: 4.87 in the 40-yard dash … 1.67 10-yard dash … 2.78 20-yard dash … 4.56 20-yard shuttle … 7.20 three-cone drill … 27 1/2-inch vertical jump … 8'11" broad jump … 32 1/8-inch arm length … 9 5/8-inch hands.
Combine: 4.84 in the 40-yard dash … 1.65 10-yard dash … 2.75 20-yard dash … 4.47 20-yard shuttle … 7.06 three-cone drill … Did not participate in 225-pound bench press … 30 1/2-inch vertical jump … 8'11" broad jump … 33 1/4-inch arm length … 10-inch hands.

McGee

Combine: 4.61 in the 40-yard dash … 1.53 10-yard dash … 2.63 20-yard dash … 4.49 20-yard shuttle … 7.34 three-cone drill … 33-inch vertical jump … 9'4" broad jump … 31 5/8-inch arm length … 8 1/2-inch hands.
 
I'm not sure what you are looking for when it comes to White as his agility tests;


Agility Tests

Campus: 4.45 in the 40-yard dash … 1.53 10-yard dash … 2.56 20-yard dash … 4.18 20-yard shuttle … 6.92 three-cone drill … 31-inch vertical jump … 9'6" broad jump … Bench pressed 225 pounds 17 times … 32 3/4-inch arm length … 9 1/2-inch hands.

Combine: 4.42 in the 40-yard dash … 1.60 10-yard dash … 2.63 20-yard dash … 4.42 20-yard shuttle … 7.06 three-cone drill … 35-inch vertical jump … 9'9" broad jump … Did not participate in 225-pound bench press … 33 1/2-inch arm length … 9 1/4-inch hands.

We're talking about a QB....Not a receiver or even a running back.

Here's a few top rated QB's agaility tests;

Josh Freeman

Campus: 4.76 in the 40-yard dash … 1.62 10-yard dash … 2.72 20-yard dash … 4.34 20-yard shuttle … 7.21 three-cone drill … 30-inch vertical jump … 9'7" broad jump … 335-pound bench press … 480-pound squat … 315-pound power clean … 32 5/8-inch arm length … 9 5/8-inch hands.
Combine: 4.94 in the 40-yard dash … 1.66 10-yard dash … 2.86 20-yard dash … 4.43 20-yard shuttle … 7.11 three-cone drill … 33 1/2-inch vertical jump … 9'11" broad jump … Did not participate in 225-pound bench press … 32 3/4-inch arm length … 10-inch hands.



Sanchez


Campus: 4.85 in the 40-yard dash … 1.71 10-yard dash … 2.82 20-yard dash … 4.35 20-yard shuttle … 7.28 three-cone drill … 29 1/2-inch vertical jump … 8'8" broad jump … 335-pound bench press … 470-pound squat … 295-pound hang clean … 31 3/4-inch arm length … 9 5/8-inch hands.
Combine: 4.92 in the 40-yard dash … 1.63 10-yard dash … 2.81 20-yard dash … 4.21 20-yard shuttle … 7.06 three-cone drill … 32 1/2-inch vertical jump … 9'8" broad jump … Did not participate in 225-pound bench press … 33 1/2-inch arm length … 10 1/2-inch hands.


Stafford



Campus: 4.87 in the 40-yard dash … 1.67 10-yard dash … 2.78 20-yard dash … 4.56 20-yard shuttle … 7.20 three-cone drill … 27 1/2-inch vertical jump … 8'11" broad jump … 32 1/8-inch arm length … 9 5/8-inch hands.
Combine: 4.84 in the 40-yard dash … 1.65 10-yard dash … 2.75 20-yard dash … 4.47 20-yard shuttle … 7.06 three-cone drill … Did not participate in 225-pound bench press … 30 1/2-inch vertical jump … 8'11" broad jump … 33 1/4-inch arm length … 10-inch hands.

McGee

Combine: 4.61 in the 40-yard dash … 1.53 10-yard dash … 2.63 20-yard dash … 4.49 20-yard shuttle … 7.34 three-cone drill … 33-inch vertical jump … 9'4" broad jump … 31 5/8-inch arm length … 8 1/2-inch hands.

I was referring to another poster who commented on White's so so agility tests. All I know is that when I saw him he looked very fast and extremely agile, great lateral quicks.
 
I was referring to another poster who commented on White's so so agility tests. All I know is that when I saw him he looked very fast and extremely agile, great lateral quicks.

I totally agree!!

Whites talent is born with...not learned. Even some running backs and receivers that have slower 40 times...have quick feet that make them dangerous.
 
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