Pat White, the deep ball and other options | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Pat White, the deep ball and other options

nyjunc said:
Take the blinders off, pretend Miami didn't draft him, pretend he isn't attached to any team and tell what you see.
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I see a guy that throws an accurate deep vertical with great touch. And I said so before the draft, when I also said that I didn't want Miami to draft him because I feel he's too small at 200 pounds to be a reliable runner in the Wildcat.
 
ckparrothead said:
I see a guy that throws an accurate deep vertical with great touch. And I said so before the draft, when I also said that I didn't want Miami to draft him because I feel he's too small at 200 pounds to be a reliable runner in the Wildcat.
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Do you see an NFL caliber QB when looking at the way he throws the football?
 
nyjunc said:
Do you see an NFL caliber QB when looking at the way he throws the football?
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The way the game is played right now, I see a career backup, a Seneca Wallace.

But I think part of the draw here is that the Wildcat has switched around a few equations, and that the spread option has finally entered the NFL.

If the spread option becomes 20% of any team's playbook, and/or the season gets extended to 18 games, Pat White becomes more valuable than a career backup.
 
nyjunc said:
See if you can tell a difference btw the passing of White and what you see at the link below. Again, pretend there isn't a team associated w/ the player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_rib5nD5P0
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Zanchez has a better arm, no doubt. But if you want to do a comparison to one of our guys as a passer, try Henne- you'll be seeing quite a bit of him, and soon.

I'm fine with Pat White's arm in the context of what he was drafted to do, run the wildcat. If not for that, I'd be a little hesitant about a smallish QB taken in the 2nd round. He doesnn't have a killer arm, but he doesn't have to. You guys tried something similar with I believe Brad Smith- it failed. Good luck defending White this year, you'll need it. If Vernon Gholston actually sees the field this year his head will be spinning like a whirling dervish trying to figure out if he should look for the pass or the run. It's Whites combination of skills, not his arm alone, that makes him so valuable for what we're going to do- to your team among others- this year.
 
nyjunc said:
Do you see a difference in the way the 2 throw the football?
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Yes. Pat White throws the ball more upright, maximizing his height. Sanchez slouches, minimizing his height. The release points end up way closer to each other despite the 2 inch height variance than should be.

Are you getting at arm strength? I don't see an appreciable difference in arm strength. I think Sanchez' fastest fast ball is faster than Pat White's fastest fast ball. But, I think Sanchez' comfortable throw is the same as Pat White's. I see good mechanics out of both players, with the exception of Pat White's inconsistent footwork and Mark Sanchez' slouching problem. I see touch in both players' throws, with Pat White having an edge on his vertical touch. I see accuracy, with Sanchez having an advantage in that category. I see field awareness as well as excellent awareness of down, distance, score, quarter and situation...from both players. Mark Sanchez is more advanced at using his eyes to manipulate defenders. He's more advanced on timing throws. He is far more advanced in dropback handoff and play-action mechanics. I see strong command presence from both players, with stronger clutch performance shown by Pat White. That's no offense to Sanchez but he was picked off the vine while still yellow, having only 16 starts under his belt, and he absolutely crumbled in the clutch against Oregon State. He hadn't yet learned to turn those moments of everything caving in on you into gutsy victory. Pat White has three years on him, in that regard.
 
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ckparrothead said:
The way the game is played right now, I see a career backup, a Seneca Wallace.

But I think part of the draw here is that the Wildcat has switched around a few equations, and that the spread option has finally entered the NFL.

If the spread option becomes 20% of any team's playbook, and/or the season gets extended to 18 games, Pat White becomes more valuable than a career backup.
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I can agree w/ career backup.

Is the wildcat here long term? I don't know about that. If it is he can be valuable.

jim1 said:
Zanchez has a better arm, no doubt. But if you want to do a comparison to one of our guys as a passer, try Henne- you'll be seeing quite a bit of him, and soon.

I'm fine with Pat White's arm in the context of what he was drafted to do, run the wildcat. If not for that, I'd be a little hesitant about a smallish QB taken in the 2nd round. He doesnn't have a killer arm, but he doesn't have to. You guys tried something similar with I believe Brad Smith- it failed. Good luck defending White this year, you'll need it. If Vernon Gholston actually sees the field this year his head will be spinning like a whirling dervish trying to figure out if he should look for the pass or the run. It's Whites combination of skills, not his arm alone, that makes him so valuable for what we're going to do- to your team among others- this year.
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I can't wait for the henne era to begin.

I tried to look up Chad Henne highlights on youtube but nothing came up. I would be interested to see more on hm. I haven't watched him play in 2 years and you forget liitle things over time so if there is a nice clip please post it.
 
ckparrothead said:
Yes. Pat White throws the ball more upright, maximizing his height. Sanchez slouches, minimizing his height. The release points end up way closer to each other despite the 2 inch height variance than should be.

Are you getting at arm strength? I don't see an appreciable difference in arm strength. I think Sanchez' fastest fast ball is faster than Pat White's fastest fast ball. But, I think Sanchez' comfortable throw is the same as Pat White's. I see good mechanics out of both players, with the exception of Pat White's inconsistent footwork and Mark Sanchez' slouching problem. I see touch in both players' throws, with Pat White having an edge on his vertical touch. I see accuracy, with Sanchez having an advantage in that category. I see field awareness as well as excellent awareness of down, distance, score, quarter and situation...from both players. Mark Sanchez is more advanced at using his eyes to manipulate defenders. He's more advanced on timing throws. He is far more advanced in dropback handoff and play-action mechanics. I see strong command presence from both players, with stronger clutch performance shown by Pat White. That's no offense to Sanchez but he was picked off the vine while still yellow, having only 16 starts under his belt, and he absolutely crumbled in the clutch against Oregon State. He hadn't yet learned to turn those moments of everything caving in on you into gutsy victory. Pat White has three years on him, in that regard.
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I agree w/ alot of what you say but how did he crumble in the clutch against Or State? Is he not allowed to lose a game? White lost plenty in the weak BE.

White has more of a windup and a slower delivery which isn't good in the NFL. Every split second counts and you can see the ease w/ which Sanchez throws the football compared to White. Sanchez is much smoother w/ the football, no wasted movements. It's silly to compare these two since one is a running QB that throws while the other is more of a classic pocket passer. One is expected to be a franchise QB while the other a complimentary part, of course Sanchez should look alot better than White.
 
nyjunc said:
I agree w/ alot of what you say but how did he crumble in the clutch against Or State? Is he not allowed to lose a game? White lost plenty in the weak BE.

White has more of a windup and a slower delivery which isn't good in the NFL. Every split second counts and you can see the ease w/ which Sanchez throws the football compared to White. Sanchez is much smoother w/ the football, no wasted movements. It's silly to compare these two since one is a running QB that throws while the other is more of a classic pocket passer. One is expected to be a franchise QB while the other a complimentary part, of course Sanchez should look alot better than White.
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You need to take off your green colored glasses and watch that game if you couldn't see it. Every time they needed a play, especially the last drive Sanchez didn't bother to try and read the field or look off defenders, he was locked on the same reciever. I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but I recall 2 of the 3 passes he threw to the kid should have never even been attempted bc he was double covered. He misfired the first too high, underthrew the 2nd and overthrew the 3rd one and got picked if I recall.
 
White lost games, every QB does. But the games that they lost were not a direct result of PW doing stupid things with the football. Which was the case with Sanchez against O. St. The knock on Henne was that he had a tendency to stare down recievers from time to time as well. It's definately not something that can't be overcome. But I would be concerned about my QB crumbling against the likes of Oregon st. Not nearly as much pressure there as an NFL game in NY.
 
nyjunc said:
I can agree w/ career backup.

Is the wildcat here long term? I don't know about that. If it is he can be valuable.
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Just remember that a "career backup" usually means the guy will find himself starting a fair number of football games. Otherwise he wouldn't stay a primary backup for long. Take a Sage Rosenfels as a for instance. People can't figure out whether he's a starter or a backup. That's the only way you end up a career backup like Sage has. That's the kind of future I could foresee for Pat White.

As for the Wildcat...I won't pretend it's an easy answer. What I'll say though is that the NFL and NCAA playbooks have been getting further and further apart at a very rapid pace the last 10-15 years. What we call "Wildcat" just means spread and/or option plays. Shotgun split back veer. Single wing. Triple option. Zone read. The NCAA has adopted these concepts to where they've become their bread and butter. As one coach recently said, 80 percent of the NCAA is that stuff right now.

I personally do not think that the NFL can continue to subsist on normal "pro" concepts while the NCAA diverges from them so strongly. That's my theory. It's just a theory. The NFL eats college prospects as cheap labor. Nowadays you hear everyone say, "Rookies have to be able to play quickly" and "you have to hit on your draft picks". In order to do that, you have to pick rookies whose skill sets match what you as a pro football team want to do. That gets harder and harder when 80 percent of the NCAA is filled with option and spread stuff. How many stud QB prospects come out nowadays with a bunch of experience dropping back from under center and throwing pro style routes? Few.

But that means there's a large segment of talent basically going untouched by the NFL simply because they're too reluctant to change their playbooks around.

Look at what Miami did with the Wildcat. They installed the thing mid-season, during a regular season practice schedule. An offense of nobodies and cast-offs embarrassed one of the league's leading defensive minds, one of the league's smartest defenses, with an offense that basically took two days of practice to install! You want to talk about low-hanging fruit? That's low-hanging fruit.

Franchise QBs and "blue goose number one WRs" (to borrow Jerry Reese's language) are more rare than ever...and for the QBs at least it seems, more necessary than ever. How long before the teams that don't have one get fed up with this league becoming a league of haves and have-nots at positions that are extremely hard to find, and turn a different direction?

That's what I think could start to happen in the NFL...and it won't subside until college defenses find an answer for all that spread and option stuff out there. It'll be like the 3-4 and 4-3 defenses. The 4-3 defenses reigned until 3-4 two-gap talent became cheap and ignored, and then teams that ran a 3-4 thrived on the advantage.

I can't wait for the henne era to begin.

I tried to look up Chad Henne highlights on youtube but nothing came up. I would be interested to see more on hm. I haven't watched him play in 2 years and you forget liitle things over time so if there is a nice clip please post it.
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I know there's one out there of his drive against the Arizona Cardinals...and honestly, it was a pretty impressive drive.
 
FinsFan_In_Iraq said:
You need to take off your green colored glasses and watch that game if you couldn't see it. Every time they needed a play, especially the last drive Sanchez didn't bother to try and read the field or look off defenders, he was locked on the same reciever. I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but I recall 2 of the 3 passes he threw to the kid should have never even been attempted bc he was double covered. He misfired the first too high, underthrew the 2nd and overthrew the 3rd one and got picked if I recall.
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I don't remember the play by play of the game so I can't speak to whether he stunk or not. His #s were decent, they were down 21-0 and he led them back in the game so he must have done some good things.

FinsFan_In_Iraq said:
White lost games, every QB does. But the games that they lost were not a direct result of PW doing stupid things with the football. Which was the case with Sanchez against O. St. The knock on Henne was that he had a tendency to stare down recievers from time to time as well. It's definately not something that can't be overcome. But I would be concerned about my QB crumbling against the likes of Oregon st. Not nearly as much pressure there as an NFL game in NY.
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Oregon State was a top 20 team, wouldn't you be more concerned about a QB crumbling against a 1AA team at home?
 
Henne was 19/37 233yards, 1td, and 1 pick. Definately not overly impressive, but he put his team in position to win that game. The FG was blocked. He didnt completely fall apart on the final drive and throw 3 passes into double coverage. Would have been 4, but Sanchez finally got picked on the third try.
 
Im not sure if there is a video of it availible, if Ican find one I will post it, but the 45 yard bomb Henne dropped over the defense with 6 seconds left was a beautiful thing.
 
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