Sentinel: Fins spending nearly 2X on Defense

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by TealAttack13, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. TealAttack13

    TealAttack13 A True Fan

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    http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...ry-cap-paul-soliai-quarterback-ryan-tannehill

    Interesting little read here.

    Sean Smith and Randy Starks are both noticeably missing from this list. There's talk at the end of the article that the team will spend FA money this year improving the offense , while drafting defense to get younger and cheaper. I figured we would lose either Smith or Starks (preferably Smith IMO), but this sounds like we are losing both of them. Maybe they left them off because they are going with people who are already on the books for next year? Like I said before, interesting read.
     
  2. Dfan06

    Dfan06 Seasoned Veteran

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    My thinking has always been to secure the tight end/wr position in free agency and draft defense. Let's say you sign Mike Wallace/Jared Cook this gives you the ability to draft the best defensive player available. Even if they go receiver first, they should focus on the defense.

    Dansby/Dimitri P/Kevin Burnett/Richard Marshall are all making way too much.
     
  3. Cowboynemo

    Cowboynemo Well-Known Member

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    I kinda believe this might be fairly accurate. Free Agency is where we can get proven weapons for the near-term....then build the defense through the draft...it will cost us less, and we're strongest there now ! This is a better approach than a shotgun approach !
     
  4. Aqua and Orange

    Aqua and Orange Poster With A Porpoise Finheaven VIP Donator

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    The flaw in the thinking of this article is that simply following the money is not the be all end all of figuring out where the team will go in the draft. The opinion of "they are paying people on defense, so that means they will likely draft to get younger on defense" only makes sense if all of our holes on offense are filled with cheap, long term solutions...which it is not. Our O line is in shambles, the wr core is nonexistent and we have no number 1 tight end. If a good offensive option is there in the draft, the team will draft them...no "higher level thinking" should prove otherwise.

    Classic example of an article that expounds on numbers without a true understanding of what is behind them. The solutions to the holes on this team are based on the PEOPLE available in free agency and the draft, not some master plan that is started before the Dolphins even find out who is available and at what price tag.
     
  5. insomnia411

    insomnia411 The world is yours

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    I would trade Dansby and draft a replacement. 8.5 mil for him? That's inexcusable.
     
  6. uk_dolfan

    uk_dolfan Founder of the FH Adam Gase fan club Moderator Finheaven VIP

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    8.5 million for one of the best linebackers in the league who is the leader of our defence and is playing great is fine.

    Dansby is constantly underappreciated on this forum.
     
  7. Spesh

    Spesh #freespesh

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    Noticed a lack of Jake Long salary on there. Count that and the numbers get closer together. Not to mention one thing everyone tends to forget: we are not paying a franchise quarterback salary. In 2 years time, our "offensive salary" is going to explode.

    Anyways, how in the hell is Richard Marshall one of our top paid defensive players? And how is Incognito our top paid offensive player? $11 million for those two players. Anyone wondering how we got into cap hell last offseason, this is where it starts.

    ---------- Post added at 11:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------

    Of all the numbers i saw in that article, Dansby was the one i had the least problems with.
     
  8. insomnia411

    insomnia411 The world is yours

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    I don't see Dansby as being that great. We're always getting smoked by tight ends over the middle and runningbacks out of the backfield, largely thanks to Dansby's lack of coverage skills.
    He's a good linebacker, but he's certainly replaceable, and I'd much rather allocate big $$ to pass rushers/ coverage guys on defense anyway.
     
  9. jlfin

    jlfin old pro

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    Thats just not true. Dansby is actually one of the better cover LB's in the league.
     
  10. Digital

    Digital Starter

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    I've been saying for a while that we will likely be rebuilding the LB corps next offseason. The reason is that Dansby and Burnett are likely playing their last big years with us in 2013. They are nearing the end of their big money FA contracts and underperforming them IMHO. This is why I've had 1 or 2 LB's in every mock draft I've I've made this year. We will likely add 1 DL player (likely a DE) and either let Starks walk or trade Odrick. Tony McDaniel will be let go as well. With the Vontae trade and Smith's ultra-high price tag, we'll definitely need at least 1 starting CB. Coupled with our need for 2-3 WR's and at least 1 guy at OL, TE, and RB this offseason ... I think we'll wait until next offseason to rebuild the LB corps.

    Remember, these numbers represent 1) $0 for FA's like Long, Bush, Starks, Smith, Hartline, Fasano, Clemons, who prior to this season would almost all have made those lists and are all likely to make them this year or with another team, and 2) the natural salary cap curve of good players coming from their low rookie contracts to the natural and expected much higher 2nd contracts. Guys like Pouncey, Jones and Tannehill will command faaaaaaaaar higher salaries when they reach their 2nd contracts. Our free cap space is artificially inflated by players overperforming their rookie contracts ... which will change. So, it might be best to consider this top 7 on each side of the ball as a top 10 but with the remaining 3 contracts yet to be written. Surely we'll sign a LT. Surely we'll sign a FA WR. Surely the #12 overall pick makes this list, probably on offense. Surely we'll draft or sign RB and TE. Surely we'll sign at least 1 CB, maybe 2.

    These salaries also give us a good insight into the draft policy for the Dolphins. With at least 2 LB's needing to be replaced by 2014 and zero depth behind them, we'll almost certainly bring in a young draftee to groom. The DB situation has too many holes, not enough talent, and not nearly enough takeaways to remain in tact. So we will definitely draft at least 1 CB out of those 5 picks in the first 3 rounds. Given our tremendous dearth of talent and speed at WR, it's fair to assume we will bring in 1 veteran FA and 2 WR's through the draft, with at least 1 of those WR draftees being in the first couple of rounds. If we don't sign Long or another LT in FA, we'll almost certainly have to draft a LT at #12. Letting Bush go we'll likely draft a mid-round replacement and promote Miller ... but what makes people think we'll keep the multiple-concussion power back Daniel Thomas? Given the high price and poor production of our guards, we will have to bring in at least 1 G for competition.

    So looking at it, that's a draft that will include: 1 LB, 1 CB, 2 WR, 1 LT, 1 RB, 1 G. That's 7 of our 9 draft spots almost pre-determined. Sure, we could keep Thomas and add a cheap RB; re-sign Long and delay a new G for a year, but even doing all that we're at 4 of 9 draft picks being at pre-determined positions--2 WR, 1 CB, 1 LB.
     
  11. uk_dolfan

    uk_dolfan Founder of the FH Adam Gase fan club Moderator Finheaven VIP

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    Er Dansby is immense he is the central block of our good defense, he could start for any team in the NFL but lets leave that aside, despite the fact we have plenty of cash and draft picks why do you want to remove a central piece of our d to try and improve it? Our starting LB group can compete with anyones, why break that up? Why give us another big draft priority? Sure cut Dansby but then we have to draft a linebacker instead of a corner or WR, you really think that's a good idea?

    You don't improve a team by removing your best players, you build around them. If you want a SuperBowl winning defense add corners around Smith, get more linebacker depth, sign extra pass rushers. Add to what we have, don't remove core pieces and replace them.
     
  12. Nublar7

    Nublar7 Retired Finheaven VIP

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    His 2013 salary is actually closer to $6 million, but his cap number gets bumped over $8 million because of workout bonuses and his signing bonus which is spread out over the length of the contract. Dansby might not be "elite" or a Pro Bowl linebacker, but he is still a very good player. Cutting or trading Dansby this offseason would create over $4.5 million in dead space and would only free up around $3.9 million in cap space. Not worth trying to replace him.
     
  13. DolfanISS

    DolfanISS Perennial All-Pro

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    IT's amazaing what Madden has done to the outlook of fans. Fans are more concerned with how much guys make then if they're any good. As a fan I want the best 22 guys we can possibly have starting and don;t give a rats *** about much much they make. Pretty soon they'll be threads about how we can win if we're at the cap floor.
     
  14. dolfin530

    dolfin530 Student of the Game

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    Next year we have to worry about Dansby's contract. $8 million is ok for this year.
     
  15. insomnia411

    insomnia411 The world is yours

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    If cutting Dansby would allow us to make a big push at an Avril or Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie then I would do it. Like I said I'd much rather allocate that kind of money (8-10 mil a year) to a big time pass rusher or corner. But, if it's like Nublar says and Dansby's contract wouldn't allow us much cap space this year by cutting him anyway then it's not worth it. If a team would part with a pick for him then that's different but.that's probably not happening.
     
  16. Spesh

    Spesh #freespesh

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    You do realize that if we give to many bad players great contracts, we wont be able to afford good players, right?
     
  17. uk_dolfan

    uk_dolfan Founder of the FH Adam Gase fan club Moderator Finheaven VIP

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    Good call, people put far too much emphasis on salary numbers ie. Dansby, Smith, Hartine, total wage isnt all people think. For example I believe Dansby still has around 6 million in guaranteed money, so cut him if you like but you will be paying him either way. its just a madden/fantasy football thing

    It's the same with Smith and Hartline, if we give them 5 years, $6/7 million what are the chances they even finish that contract? It is always the guaranteed figure that matters not the total number.
     
  18. Fin Thirteen

    Fin Thirteen FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    What a stupid article. The defense commands more of the budget than the offense because they're mostly vets we signed. The offense is mostly recent draftees. If anything that would suggest we draft MORE defensive players and fewer offense. The whole article is based on completely skewed logic. Omar Kelly plumbing new depths of sports journalism.
     
  19. fishbanger

    fishbanger Phin fan since 1970!

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    Dansby is not an issue for this year. Sean Smith and Richard Marshall will be replaced. We can draft one corner and a saftey to lower the defensive cap space and improve our secondary at the same time.

    How about Jonathan Banks and ELAM with your first two picks. Now you have a secondary that will create turnovers. Take WR or TE with third pick. Sign a WR or TE in FA.
     
  20. MBoogieman

    MBoogieman Member

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    This data is skewed in that it does not include LY salaries for offensive free agents.
     
  21. Spesh

    Spesh #freespesh

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    Why should we assume that? Smart money says they will be gone, but the Dolphins have made bigger mistakes in the past.

    With teams cutting players and ramping up talks with their own free agents, why is Marshall still here? Why not settle our salary situation before handing out contracts? Its not hard to imagine Marshall has workout/training camp bonuses coming up, so if we plan on cutting him it has to be soon.

    This reeks of another Legedu Naanee/Benny Sapp/Marc Colombo situation. A player that obviously needs to be cut but wont because of Irelands stubbornness and ego. As no brainer as it looks to cut Marshall, i can easily see him on the roster at the start of the season.
     
  22. Nublar7

    Nublar7 Retired Finheaven VIP

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    I don't think it is a "no-brainer that Richard Marshall has to be released at this point of the offseason, or at all. A $5.8 million cap hit for Marshall is high for this upcoming season, I agree with that, but that was also part of how the free agent market works. Players always get overpaid to be able to secure their rights. It is why a guy like Mike Wallace is going to be getting a $10+ million a year contract when his playing worth doesn't match that cost, just how free agency works. The Dolphins currently have $44 million in cap space and a cap savings of only $3.4 million at this point is not really needed.

    Marshall is an above average cornerback and he had some respectable seasons with the Cardinals and Panthers before signing here. He got hurt here last season, that happens to players during their career. It wasn't like the Dolphins signed an injury plagued cornerback since he hadn't missed a game his previous 7 NFL seasons. If Smith doesn't re-sign or get the franchise tag and you cut Marshall to save $3.4 million, that leaves the Dolphins with Dimitri Patterson and Nolan Carroll as the top two cornerbacks. Granted the Dolphins can sign and draft replacements, but why create another hole just to save a few million when the team already is loaded with space? If you sign free agent cornerbacks and draft some who can replace Marshall than you can make a decision to cut or trade him.
     
  23. dlockz

    dlockz Hall Of Famer

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    The only year which u could argue that Marshall was an above average cb was the year prior to us signing him, he was definately not an above average cb while a starter for the Panthers, thus was one reason they made no attempt to resign him and he signed only a one year contract with the Cards. If he was so above average or even average he would have been much more in demand
     
  24. insomnia411

    insomnia411 The world is yours

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    Thank you, Richard Marshall sucks and we're no worse off having Nolan Carroll starting for 1/6th the price. On the same page, Sean Smith is worth about what Marshall is getting paid now and if he continues with this crap about 10 million a year we should tell him to go get smoked and drop picks elsewhere... ****in useless stiff hips.
     
  25. DolfanISS

    DolfanISS Perennial All-Pro

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    OK I'm convinced. Lets cut Dansby and Burnett and roll with Spitler and Trusnik that way we'll be able to sign some good players.
     
  26. Roman529

    Roman529 Moon Runner / The 3 AM Crew

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    Is there a reason Omar Kelly left out Jake Long's salary????

    Now, let us compare that to the top seven salaries on the offensive side of the Dolphins roster.
    1. Left guard Richie Incognito ($5,383,334)
    2. Receiver Davone Bess ($3,433,334)
    3. Quarterback Ryan Tannehill ($2,879,205)
    4. Center Mike Pouncey ($2,525,371)
    5. Right guard John Jerry ($1,537,625)
    6. Offensive tackle Jonathan Martin ($1,087,333)
    7. Tailback Daniel Thomas ($931,666)
     
  27. Valandui

    Valandui Lumberjack Batman Donator

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    Actually, he played FS for much of that season if I recall correctly.
     
  28. NYFINest

    NYFINest Well-Known Member

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    No way Marshall is above average corner, did you actually watch him play last season, and that way before a back injury which are very tough for players. No way in hell we should be paying Patterson and Marshall 10 mil, that's a joke. Instead you cut them both, sign one of the better FA corners even if its in 9-10 mil range to give you true number one guy and draft another with one of the top 3 picks. I'd like that hell of a lot more than paying those 2 bums 10 million
     
  29. retarmyfinfan

    retarmyfinfan Brave Rifles Donator

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    Based on what? Are there any statistics that you can provide or is it just your opinion? I remember one of the reasons we got Burnett is to get a LB that can cover TE's.
     
  30. Nublar7

    Nublar7 Retired Finheaven VIP

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    Those are 2013 cap numbers.
     
  31. jlfin

    jlfin old pro

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    Can you provide stats to prove otherwise? He has always been considered a very good all around LB a solid cover LB and never considered a liability in the passing game. That's why he was so coveted when he became a FA. I'm too busy to look up stats, it s not my thing. This site is purely entertainment for me. I have a real life outside of Finheaven.
     
  32. Dolph N.Fan

    Dolph N.Fan A True Fan

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    Probably cause he's getting paid way more with Miami than he did in Arizona except he left all his playmaking ability in the desert. Miami didn't sign Dansby to just be solid. They signed him to be the turnover creating linebacker he was in Arizona. Could be just one little reason why he's "under appreciated"...you know when he signed that big contract Dolphins fans had high expectations for him.
     
  33. Spesh

    Spesh #freespesh

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    Its the attitude of "its not needed" that prevents us from making any moves 3 years from now. Nothing happens in a vacuum. I know many like to pretend Irelands last offseason was brilliant because he was able to sign players even without any cap space, but the fact of the matter is we had no cap space because we screwed the pooch in years past. While you may have to overpay to get certain players, you have to accurately view the situation. You cant pay top dollar to a player who is undeserving of that contract. Not to mention Marshall was somewhat of a luxury signing, as we already had better corners on the team...until we made room for Irelands free agent. If that $3.4 million were to prevent us from signing, say, Jennings or Wallace, suddenly its very needed and has a very real impact. Just because that impact is delayed 3 years from now doesnt mean its not felt.

    He got cut from the Panthers and the Cardinals let him walk. Keep in mind, the Cardinals let him walk after he played at least part of the season at a position better suited to his talents: safety. As the Panthers had been slowly building back up their defense(and now offense) and the Cardinals are completely rebuilding, that neither team wanted him back is telling. Its easy to say Marshall had a bad year because he got injured, but even before his injury he was a liability. Between regular season and preseason, he played in 8 games(7 if you want to discount the final preseason game, which he played but not for long). He wasnt good. Anyway you want to cut it, he was adequate at best...and thats a bit of a exaggeration.

    Even if we keep him, we still have a hole at corner. You cant keep bad players just to have a roster spot taken. There are to many decent players just waiting for a chance to play to justify holding onto a bad player. The fact that those players would not be asking for $6 million a year is also incentive to get rid of him. And holding onto Marshall just because you absolutely screwed up in the past(example: trading Vontae, relying on Smith) is the epitome of idiocy. Its making a bad situation worse. Ireland screwed up with signing Marshall to that big a deal. Continuing to pay bad players in order to save face is one of the reasons we keep losing.
     

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