Slimm's 2018 Quarterbacks (Underclassman)

Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by TedSlimmJr, May 4, 2017.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    49,046
    Likes Received:
    616
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I appreciate all four quarterbacks and I do put Baker Mayfield in their ranks.
     
    Tannenbombs likes this.
  2. Tannenbombs

    Tannenbombs FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 2014
    Messages:
    2,080
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    38
    What do you have on Baker
     
  3. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    49,046
    Likes Received:
    616
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I would say in my history it can't exactly come as a shock if I have an affinity for Baker Mayfield. My two guys last year were Patrick Mahomes and Deshaun Watson. I gave Mahomes the slight edge on long term potential.

    I need a guy who is faster than the game because the game is faster than the guy when they bump to the next level. Baker Mayfield is faster than the game.

    You can't just come to the NFL anymore and conquer it from a mental and technical standpoint. It's too much. You need to be able to handle the rush and make plays on your own. You can't keep waiting until someone builds an offense for you and gets it all perfect so you can take off running. It's nice when it happens that way but it's probably not going to happen that way.

    When I watch Baker Mayfield play, I think he's got a handle on where everyone is, where they're supposed to be, and he knows where to look when he gets into trouble. He also knows how to manipulate the defense and defenders to get what he wants. He thinks in real time.

    The thing he adds to that is really consistent throwing and execution. That's the extra. I think when you're able to show that you can consistently execute in a way your skill players can count on, and then you also have that play making ability, it's enough to go toe to toe with NFL defenses. To be able to complete 76 percent of your passes and have the execution from a timing, ball placement standpoint achieve uniformity, especially in quick flick, bang-bang situations, and yet so clearly be a gun slinging play-maker type...that's attractive. His feet are wonderful. Not sure there's anyone in the class with feet that quick and that active. But then, there's not a QB in the class actually playing better than Baker right now.

    He's going to have to be taught things. I understand that. But I also understand that he's not going to have to be taught things that others will never have. I think he's got a chance to be somewhere between a Drew Brees and a Russell Wilson.

    I'm not going to ding a guy on height anymore based on poor or misunderstood statistical methodology. I'm only going to do it if I see the size translate into poor vision, poor habits, or poor durability. And I don't see an arm strength case to be made. In fact I like the way he darts the football around at distance.
     
  4. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

    Joined:
    Jul 2008
    Messages:
    9,878
    Likes Received:
    355
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I pointed out how lucky Rosen was getting in terms of interceptions while other quarterbacks weren't. I tried to illustrate that he was 4 inches from having the games Josh Allen was getting scolded for having.

    As usual, the breaks have caught up with him. It all evens out in the end. This weekend was Rosen and Luke Falk's turn.

    Although Falk isn't anywhere near the category Rosen, Darnold, and Allen are in. Which is all together a different discussion.
     
    j-off-her-doll likes this.
  5. mrbunglez

    mrbunglez Reading Is Fundamental Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 2008
    Messages:
    5,370
    Likes Received:
    221
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Watching Tanner Lee more, minus the turnovers, he’s got a real nice throwing motion and quick release when he passes. It’s reminiscent of Marino imo. This is the kid I’d like the Phins to draft whether it be next year or the year after. I think he’s going to be pretty dang good.
     
  6. mrbunglez

    mrbunglez Reading Is Fundamental Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 2008
    Messages:
    5,370
    Likes Received:
    221
    Trophy Points:
    63
    What do you guys think of Will Grier out of W. Virginia? I’m a Florida Gators fan and was pissed they dumped him. He played really well when he was on the Gators until his injury, and now he’s playing really well @ W. Virginia.
     
  7. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    49,046
    Likes Received:
    616
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Grier strikes me as a guy that's in bad need of a significant amount of refinement. He needs to develop more consistency, as cliche as that sounds. He reminds me a bit of Jay Cutler that way.
     
    mrbunglez likes this.
  8. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    49,046
    Likes Received:
    616
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Word on the street is Tanner Lee and Clayton Thorson are leaning toward coming out early.
     
    mrbunglez likes this.
  9. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2009
    Messages:
    14,084
    Likes Received:
    790
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I agree, but he definitely doesn't have Cutler's arm. I think he's a clever QB, but he'd do well to return and improve the consistency of his footwork and throwing mechanics. I know the lesser QB's smell blood in the water with Darnold's struggles (not to mention the possibility that he'll return to USC in 2018), but they should really focus on what's best for their development - speaking of Lee and Thorson, too.

    I think you can make a strong case for each of the UC QB's to return to school for 2018, but the lower-ranked guys, especially, should think hars about where they are in their development.

    Despite his struggles, Darnold is the only UC QB I like in the 1st - if he declares.
     
    mrbunglez likes this.
  10. mrbunglez

    mrbunglez Reading Is Fundamental Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 2008
    Messages:
    5,370
    Likes Received:
    221
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I really like Tanner Lee. He’d be a good pick up in the middle rounds.
     
  11. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    49,046
    Likes Received:
    616
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yeah, few have Cutler's arm. Or at least the arm Cutler had for most of his career (not sure it's the same right now).
     
    j-off-her-doll likes this.
  12. mfish41

    mfish41 It is what it is Donator

    Joined:
    Apr 2008
    Messages:
    1,707
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I'm watching this UCLA/USC game. Rosen is going to be special. Maybe Sashi Brown goes for the threepeat and trades away the picks used for Wentz, Watson, and Rosen in three straight years. He has the treading "picks and money" water vibe that Ireland collected 6 salaries on.
     
  13. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    22,135
    Likes Received:
    1,572
    Trophy Points:
    113
    rotoworld - Wyoming redshirt junior QB Josh Allen was the first player announced for Wyoming's senior day introductions.

    Indication he's going pro? That's what they think
     
    MichaelWC likes this.
  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    49,046
    Likes Received:
    616
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think all year long we could have safely assumed Josh Allen would come out early. He had a very public "Should I or shouldn't I?" episode LAST draft season, and ended up announcing that he's decided to return to school. When you do all that, you usually don't turn around and stay in school a second time.

    The surprise is that Clayton Thorson and Tanner Lee are reportedly leaning toward coming out.
     
    nick1 likes this.
  15. Dogbone34

    Dogbone34 cowboy surfer

    Joined:
    Apr 2007
    Messages:
    2,969
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Josh Rosen and Sam Darnold are so good.

    I would mortgage the farm to get one.

    Holding out hope for Josh Allen to fall.
     
  16. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    49,046
    Likes Received:
    616
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Unless Josh Allen falls to the 3rd round (which is possible) I wouldn't hold out too much hope for him in Miami.
     
  17. mrbunglez

    mrbunglez Reading Is Fundamental Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 2008
    Messages:
    5,370
    Likes Received:
    221
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I don’t see Josh Allen dropping that far, apparently the Jets are really high on the guy. I’m hoping the Dolphins are high on him as well. I don’t want to see him in a Jets or Bills uniform.
     
  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    49,046
    Likes Received:
    616
    Trophy Points:
    113
    For quarterbacks it tends to be very all or nothing. Either you're well regarded enough a personnel department wants to stake its reputation on you, or you can fall a bit. I'm not saying Josh WILL fall into the 3rd but you certainly have to say that's a plausible scenario on that basis.
     
    mrbunglez likes this.
  19. Lovethefish

    Lovethefish Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2012
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I believe every team in the league will regret passing on Allen. Much like they regret passing on Aaron Rodgers.
     
  20. mfish41

    mfish41 It is what it is Donator

    Joined:
    Apr 2008
    Messages:
    1,707
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Someone will offer a king's ransom to get one of these guys. I wouldn't bet against Elway making a play for one of them.
     
  21. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

    Joined:
    Jul 2008
    Messages:
    9,878
    Likes Received:
    355
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Drew Lock arm = Howitzer

    Always throws a beautiful ball. Very catchable.
     
    mrbunglez and j-off-her-doll like this.
  22. LouPhinFan

    LouPhinFan It's ok to say "I don't know". Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Sep 2006
    Messages:
    9,239
    Likes Received:
    686
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Beginning the season I agreed with Ted that Lamar Jackson should be considered an "athlete" by NFL teams, but now that the regular season has played out, I think he's a QB on Sundays. There's something there to be had with him. I think it boils down to whether or not his mind can handle an NFL playbook. He still needs some work and I wouldn't take him in the 1st, but I'd take him in the 2nd in a heart beat and work with him. He works the middle of the field so well but still needs some work on his deep stuff. He's got touch and he's become accurate enough, I think, that he can play QB at the NFL level.
     
    TedSlimmJr and j-off-her-doll like this.
  23. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2009
    Messages:
    14,084
    Likes Received:
    790
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'm somewhere between you and Slimm on Jackson. I have him in the 3rd - with Mike Vick and Tyrod Taylor as his most obvious comps. You can win with that, particularly on a rookie contract, but the supporting cast has to be right. You want a good D and running game, so you're not asking him to make too many plays with his arm, because his inconsistent accuracy will translate to inconsistent offense. You can live with that if he's making big plays (which he can with his legs and arm), but if you're asking him to throw 30-40 times a game, you're going to hit some rough patches. He's not a QB who will make a bad team look good - like Deshaun Watson or Andrew Luck.

    Unfortunately, for his long-term prospects, a team will likely fall in love with him in the top 10 (where bad teams pick). Best fits: Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Jacksonville, Minnesota. Baltimore is the most realistic option. Ozzie could do what he did with Flacco when he was on his rookie contract.
     
    TedSlimmJr likes this.
  24. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

    Joined:
    Jul 2008
    Messages:
    9,878
    Likes Received:
    355
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Two things concern me about Lamar Jackson and his translation to the next level. First is accuracy, second is I don't think his frame can withstand the punishment at the next level at QB.

    At QB you're constantly going to be hit by bigger guys than you would be at WR, and most of them in a more defenseless position. Same worries I had about Robert Griffin.

    People need to realize there are no Syracuses or N. Carolinas or Purdues in the NFL. Go back and evaluate the games against LSU and Clemson, etc. That's my concern.

    Although I agree with Lou here, if you're committed to drafting this kid as a QB only and are hellbent on it, I'd be more comfortable with spending a 2nd round pick.

    But anybody wanting to draft this kid top 5 or 10 can have him all day long as far as I'm concerned. I'll live with whatever the results end up being for better or worse.
     
    BobDole and j-off-her-doll like this.
  25. mfish41

    mfish41 It is what it is Donator

    Joined:
    Apr 2008
    Messages:
    1,707
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Just based upon how highly valued QBs are in the draft. I don't think there's anyway Jackson doesn't go in the first round. I wouldn't put it past the Browns to take him #1 overall.
     
  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    49,046
    Likes Received:
    616
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I ended up with Robert Griffin rated a 2nd rounder and I see no reason not to end up with Lamar Jackson in the 2nd round as well.

    He's not as accurate as Griffin, especially at deeper NFL distances. But I think he actually sees and reads the field from inside the pocket better than Griffin did at Baylor, throwing with the anticipation of windows opening up. Without question there are more NFL concepts in Jackson's Louisville play BOOK than Griffin's Baylor play SHEET.

    With Jackson, I actually like his work from inside the pocket better than a lot of his work out of the pocket. With Griffin, it was the other way around. He never seemed comfortable until he got out of the pocket. I felt like RG3 needed to be out of the tackle box just to see things more clearly. I don't get that feeling as much with Lamar Jackson. And I think Jackson is better than RG3 was in terms of feeling the rush from inside the pocket. I'm not saying he's a standout in this regard, but it's better than RG3 was.

    They both have similar frames and take way too much contact. This was a primary concern I expressed about RG3 with consistency. He needed to play outside the pocket but he didn't have the natural wherewithal or even the desire to avoid bad contact, and his frame wasn't going to hold up to the punishment he'd get outside the pocket. He had already blown out a knee in college, and every game I would see him take these vicious shots that you don't think he can get up from. He did get up, every time, with the exception of that year he blew out his knee, but you just knew if he kept doing that in the NFL where everyone are bigger and faster, one day he wouldn't. This is the trap Lamar Jackson can't fall into, because he has a WR-like frame. I already see on film he takes too much contact.

    But then you have to go back to it...that accuracy. Griffin's accuracy was just better, and that can mean a lot at the next level.

    To me that all works out to around a 2nd round pick.
     
    j-off-her-doll likes this.
  27. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    22,135
    Likes Received:
    1,572
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I really like Jared Stidham much better game against Alabama then against Clemson. Maybe he's improving. Probably will end up back at Auburn for another year though
     
    j-off-her-doll likes this.
  28. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    49,046
    Likes Received:
    616
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It's interesting that Tanner Lee may be coming out. I imagine the temptation is all the stronger now that the coach has been fired.

    Josh Allen is strongly rumored to be out and the Wyoming coach recently iterated that point.

    I think most of us feel it's likely Lamar Jackson comes out.

    Josh Rosen is definitely out.

    The rumor that surprises me is that Clayton Thorson of Northwestern might be out. He's a good QB. Good pro prospect. But I still would've thought he'd stay.
     
  29. Dogbone34

    Dogbone34 cowboy surfer

    Joined:
    Apr 2007
    Messages:
    2,969
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    48
    If accuracy is an issue with Jackson, then I'm out, adios Lamar.

    Miami needs a QB that can throw a receiver open in stride and can still survive an NFL hit.

    No more projects, don's waste the pick, Dolphins need players than can make a 53 on talent.
     
  30. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    22,135
    Likes Received:
    1,572
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Accuracy is a Huge issue for him. I don't see that changing either. He may get better but never above 65% in my view
     
  31. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2009
    Messages:
    14,084
    Likes Received:
    790
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Very well said, CK. I also had a 2nd on RG3, but if I had it to do over, I'd have him in the 3rd, because of the implications of his playing style and frame. You really have to protect a QB like that, and even if you do, the risk of injury is still high.

    I agree that Jackson sees the field and operates from the pocket better than RG3 - and that his accuracy is worse. Ultimately, I like Jackson more than I'd like RG3 coming out today, because Jackson's character and football mind are more appealing.

    I'm very concerned that a bad team will draft him, use Jackson's legs way too much, have inflated (unsustainable) success early, only to see him hurt. That seems like the most likely outcome. I'd like to see a team use Jackson somewhere between the usage of RG3 and early Vick and Tyrod Taylor (Bills don't use his legs enough imo) - but closer to Taylor.
     
  32. mrbunglez

    mrbunglez Reading Is Fundamental Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 2008
    Messages:
    5,370
    Likes Received:
    221
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I wanna see Tanner Lee in a Miami Dolphins uniform. Or if Drew Lock declares he’s another, but both Lock and Lee might be returning for their senior year.
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    49,046
    Likes Received:
    616
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The last I heard of Tanner Lee was that he planned to come out. That's not set in stone obviously. There's got to be considerable enthusiasm about Scott Frost taking over so perhaps Lee will stay on that basis.
     

Share This Page