So called draft experts

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by finsnchips, Jan 22, 2004.

Welcome to FinHeaven Fans Forums! We're glad to have you here. Please feel free to browse the forum. We'd like to invite you to join our community; doing so will enable you to view additional forums and post with our other members.
    
VIP Members don't see these ads. Join VIP Now
  1. finsnchips

    finsnchips 2005 FinHeaven GM League Champion!!

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    5,049
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Philip Rivers is, IMO, the third best QB in the draft. Many draft analysts will agree with this; however, they believe he will be available in the second round. With Green Bay likely to draft Favre's understudy, I doubt Rivers will last until round two if he is the third QB taken.

    Similarly, Vernon Carey is, IMO, the third best O-lineman in the draft. Again draft analysts will agree; however, they also believe that he will be avilable in the second round. Again, I doubt that he will be there.

    Any talk of the fins trading down to take either Rivers or Carey, in reality, is ludacrus.
     
  2. Bowl_Bound

    Bowl_Bound A True Fan

    Joined:
    Jun 2003
    Messages:
    2,450
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0


    We meet again. :lol: I agree with you and that is why the Philly offer hold far less potential.:mad: However if they are the only takers I would still pull the trigger and go WR (Clayton or Williams) with that pick. Perhaps even trade down if neither WR is available.
     
  3. finsnchips

    finsnchips 2005 FinHeaven GM League Champion!!

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    5,049
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'm not convinced - that is of drafting WR, not of Williams or Clayton. This team hasn't had a QB to be excited about for a while. I think the fact that a young QB could come in at some point (probably next year) and have Ricky to hand the ball off to is a good thing.

    I'm a big Phil Rivers fan, and think that is the way we should go.

    If we have a second first - possibly from philly - despite what everyone may say - i think Clayton will be long gone. Clayton might even be gone by 20.
     
  4. SMadison29

    SMadison29 What Sherman aspires to be

    Joined:
    Sep 2001
    Messages:
    8,585
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Rivers, IMO, is the 7th best QB but I know he won't be the 7th taken. He is a second round prospect & will go in the second round unless some team like the Cowboys or us gets cold feet & doesn't want to risk him last that far. Rivers hasn't improved his stock at the Senior Bowl because scouts are leaving with more questions about him than when they came(same with Losman). Green Bay right now is more intent on getting a DE or FS with their first pick.

    I don't think Carey will be a first rounder because of his ankles & he just had surgery.
     
  5. minus

    minus Perennial All-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 2002
    Messages:
    4,510
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Re: So called draft experts

    7th best QB :confused:
     
  6. SMadison29

    SMadison29 What Sherman aspires to be

    Joined:
    Sep 2001
    Messages:
    8,585
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Okay maybe 5th, but I'd definitely take Ben, Eli, JP, & Pickett over him. Navarre looked horrible today so I'll drop him down. It's a toss up between him & Schaub.
     
  7. finsnchips

    finsnchips 2005 FinHeaven GM League Champion!!

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    5,049
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    What is it about Rivers that you do not like?
     
  8. Stamos

    Stamos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2002
    Messages:
    772
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Mechanics.
     
  9. Phinzone

    Phinzone FinHeaven VIP

    Joined:
    Sep 2003
    Messages:
    2,107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yeah, he doesn't throw the ball pretty. I mean THAT is what counts didn't you know? 40+ TD's, and a 70% completion rating doesn't mean squat for the kid.

    The questions about rivers going into the Senior bowl

    1. Strength of arm

    2. Mechanics

    Marino himself said he would NOT change his mechanics, and was very impressed with his arm.

    Guess that answers most of those "questions" that he came in with right?

    5th best in the draft? Give me a break.
     
  10. Agua

    Agua Fighting the media, one lie at a time

    Joined:
    Mar 2002
    Messages:
    6,332
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Actually, I think Marino said he didn't believe you "could" change his release at his age. Of course, Dan is coming from the background of Jackie Sherril (sp?) telling him [paraphrased] "son, don't ever let anyone try to change the way you throw the ball".
     
  11. Carolina_Dolfan

    Carolina_Dolfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2003
    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Re: So called draft experts

    Get off of it SMadison29......you blast Rivers on every post....Chad Pennington was a mid 1st round pick because of questionable arm strength and I bet you sure wish we traded up to pick him now......you were probably one of the ones blasting everyone when they had the Phins possibly picking him in the 1st round. If Dan the Man thinks Rivers is our guy then I trust Dan that this guy is a winner and will be a great pro QB.......I hope we see #17 in a Dolphin uniform next season cause we sure need a good young QB who is a winner, leader, class act and model citizen to get excited about........the lastQB we drafted was Josh Heupal in I think the 5th or 6th round........it's time to invest a high draft pick in the most important position on a football team.....that is why Dan was brought in......if he thinks Rivers is our man than I strongly support that decision 110%!
     
  12. NavyFishFan

    NavyFishFan F*** YOU WAYNE!

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    1,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    ....which proved to be some good advice ;)
     
  13. mikefan22

    mikefan22 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2002
    Messages:
    518
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    As of right now i think Rivers is the 2nd qb i would draft only behind Eli! Big Ben scares me to much he reminds me of Ryan Leaf I hope for his sake he's not! I admit i haven't seen as much of him as I have Rivers and Eli! Watching Rivers at NCST was like watching Dan at pit!!!! I wanted Dan then and would like to draft Rivers now!! Will see! It seems like Rick and Dan like Rivers to!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2004
  14. phinphan13

    phinphan13 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2003
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    What reminds you of Leaf? Its not his attitude, hes a great kid, very mature. As far as Leaf at WSU he was a stud, the limelight killed Leaf. Leaf was lazy. I think Ben is the best QB in the draft.
     
  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    48,641
    Likes Received:
    182
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I believe most analysts agree actually that JP Losman is the 3rd best QB in the draft as far as talent goes.

    You know what the bottom line with Ryan Leaf was though? Contrary to popular opinion it was not his attitude. Sure he couldn't handle the pressure he received in San Diego. But the bottom line with him was, he CANT PLAY. Thats right, he can't read a defense, comprehend an offense, and play in the NFL. Teams would have forgiven his attitude problems over and over if he could play in the NFL but he could not. And that is why he doesn't play in the NFL anymore.

    Look at Jeff George, he had about as bad an attitude as you COULD have for a matter of over a decade I think and if I had to compare JP Losman to someone it would be him. But George lasted in this league, bounced from team to team, because he could PLAY. He could read defenses, comprehend the offense, and throw the ball. Oh could that guy throw the ball too.

    If you're worried about JP Losman or Ben Roethlisberger being another Ryan Leaf, then what you should worry about strictly speaking is finding out that these smaller school prospects can't read an NFL defense consistently or comprehend an NFL offense.
     
  16. hunter5nc1

    hunter5nc1 A True Fan

    Joined:
    May 2003
    Messages:
    1,790
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Lets list a few QB's with bad mechanics

    Marino
    Kosar
    Farve
    Vick


    Not a bad list

    I think Rivers is if not the best QB in the draft definatly one of the top three His mechanic sure didn't hold him back against the premeir defenses last year:pirate:
     
  17. SMadison29

    SMadison29 What Sherman aspires to be

    Joined:
    Sep 2001
    Messages:
    8,585
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Re: Re: So called draft experts

    I don't know what you read back in 2000 but nobody said we'd take Pennington with our pick, we didn't even have a first round pick that year.

    So are Pickett, Navarre, & Schaub. Rivers isn't two rounds better than these guys.
     
  18. SMadison29

    SMadison29 What Sherman aspires to be

    Joined:
    Sep 2001
    Messages:
    8,585
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    With exception to Kosar, who wasn't very good anyway, Marino, Favre, & Vick have VERY VERY strong arms. Rivers doesn't.
     
  19. NavyFishFan

    NavyFishFan F*** YOU WAYNE!

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    1,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I believe I'd rather have Kosar in his prime rather than Fiedler in his prime, but ya....he didn't have a GUN per se, but you don't NEED a gun...accuracy, timing, intelligence....all day long.
     
  20. SMadison29

    SMadison29 What Sherman aspires to be

    Joined:
    Sep 2001
    Messages:
    8,585
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    His college stats don't mean much, look at BJ Symons, Ryan Dinwiddie, or Jason White. The questions coming in were about his mechanics, foot work, & arm strength. His mechanics & footwork are still a question, many think his arm is adequate, but the new questions that have arrised are his accuracy beyond 10 yards, accuracy towards the sidelines, & his floating & fluttering deep ball. It's amazing how the things I said were wrong with him to begin with are now starting to be uttered by scouts & draft experts.
     
  21. Phinzone

    Phinzone FinHeaven VIP

    Joined:
    Sep 2003
    Messages:
    2,107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Oh yeah, all you buddy, YOUR the original anti-Rivers slewer around here.

    And didn't Dan answer your questions? His horrible release enables him to have the quickest release since Dan, and be VERY accurate. His deep ball is NOT in question, as everyone has been impressed with his arm. Maybe if you took the time to look it up, he had passes of 80+ yards 3 out of 4 years, he CAN strike and stretch the field, with a non-fluttery ball. For every fluttery ball you show me, I'll be able to show 10 more tight spirals. No one has ever questioned his throws, or his accuracy. People said crap about Payton, and Marino going into the pro's as well. Rivers IS the real deal and the obvious 3rd choice at QB. But in your defense, ignorance is bliss, so I see why you fight so hard for losman.
     
  22. hunter5nc1

    hunter5nc1 A True Fan

    Joined:
    May 2003
    Messages:
    1,790
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This is one of the best post I have read people are saying all this sh@t about Rivers and they know nothing about him His arm strength isn't in question his accuracy is the best in the draft he's big mobile and aq winner what else do you guys want honestly I think he is going to be better than Eli simply because of people like saying he want make it. Save this post when he's is Kicking our A@@ if he don't come to Miami and see how you feel then,.:yell: :lol: :yell:
     
  23. SMadison29

    SMadison29 What Sherman aspires to be

    Joined:
    Sep 2001
    Messages:
    8,585
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hmm, let's try different sources.

    From TFY on Monday: From ten yards in he is very accurate but the further down the field he throws the pass the more of an adventure it becomes.

    Tuesday: not effective throwing the ball down field and had a lot of passes blocked at the line of scrimmage.

    Wednesday: Now, he's a bit slow setting up in the pocket and the further to the flanks he throws the ball the more inaccurate he is. The point of release is also a problem.

    From GBN:
    North Carolina State QB Phil Rivers also had another solid day; Rivers was particularly effective hitting on the intermediate routes, but his deep passes tend to hang, while he wasn't very accurate on a couple of flat routes...


    I'm right about Rivers.
     
  24. FINS2THERT

    FINS2THERT Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2003
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
  25. SMadison29

    SMadison29 What Sherman aspires to be

    Joined:
    Sep 2001
    Messages:
    8,585
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
  26. NavyFishFan

    NavyFishFan F*** YOU WAYNE!

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    1,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Sad but true.
     
  27. Dolphins17-0

    Dolphins17-0 Pro Bowler

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Re: Re: Re: So called draft experts

    Pickett and Navarre are downright awful, I'm two rounds better than both of them at QB, and I've always fancied myself as a 3rd down running back.
     
  28. Noland

    Noland A True Fan

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    1,586
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Why do yall keep saying that Rivers aint got a strong arm if college stats dont mean nothing Eli or Ben would be in the top ten in draft. I live in North Carolina people are full of crap if they say he does not have a strong arm outside of 10 yards that is just anti-Rivers remarks. Watch some films of River's then watch some of Marino about the same kind of throws down the middle cross patterns very accurate out side of 20 yard.

    They are at the senior Bowl throwing a college football yall are telling me that he cant throw over 10 yards with accuracy call Coach Bowden Coach Almato and Ohio State headcoach then if I am wrong bash Rivers all you want.

    I got this felling about River that he will succeed the first game I seen him play in college I knew he would make it to the NFL. Then he ended up close to NCAA records and alot of NC State records.

    Don't tell me he can't throw all of a sudden I know different.


    Anybody say he is only 7th best in draft just don't like him an know his skill. :rolleyes:
     
  29. NavyFishFan

    NavyFishFan F*** YOU WAYNE!

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    1,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Actually I think they're using an NFL ball (according to Losman anyway).
     
  30. Noland

    Noland A True Fan

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    1,586
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Either way this guy could throw a basketball. He may not can run the 40 in 4.5 40 vertical leap Marino could'ny either and he brok all kinds of records.

    I dont understand the whole east coast got to see this guy throw and play they know how good he is now he is at the senior bowl and all of a sudden he cant throw accurate over 10 yards that is BS.
     
  31. FINS2THERT

    FINS2THERT Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2003
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Just curious did you even take a look at the web page? Rivers
    is no David Klingler, Klingler wish he had Rivers stats, Arm, and
    Quick release. We are all Fin fans let's just hope we have a
    great draft!!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2004
  32. SMadison29

    SMadison29 What Sherman aspires to be

    Joined:
    Sep 2001
    Messages:
    8,585
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    NFL scouts are saying it not me. They know better than both of us. He's already no longer a first rounder according to the Giants & Cowboys.
     
  33. SMadison29

    SMadison29 What Sherman aspires to be

    Joined:
    Sep 2001
    Messages:
    8,585
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You don't even know who the hell Klingler is.

    http://www.football.com/college/records/NCAADiv1SeasonPass.shtml
     
  34. NavyFishFan

    NavyFishFan F*** YOU WAYNE!

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    1,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It's amazing how the things I said were wrong with him to begin with are now starting to be uttered by scouts & draft experts.


    Gotta call you on that one bro....while back when we first started talking about Rivers on the ESPN board (when I went to that mock draft and picked Rivers at 20) you said he had a noodle arm.
     
  35. SMadison29

    SMadison29 What Sherman aspires to be

    Joined:
    Sep 2001
    Messages:
    8,585
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It's not quite noodle, it's more like fettuccine :) He doesn't have the strongest arm. It may be above average, adequate, & better than Fiedler's but it's definitely not one of his strong points.
     
  36. FINS2THERT

    FINS2THERT Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2003
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You don't even know who the hell Klingler is.


    Played college ball for houston and was a first round draft pick for
    the Bungles. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2004
  37. Noland

    Noland A True Fan

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    1,586
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    NFL scouts are full of it to they may not think that he is a 1st rounder but if he is there in the 2nd round I bet they will grab him. NFL scouts dont like him because of his mechanics. I believe he will prove them wrong. I believe that the dolphins really want to draft a qb in the first round so that would be Losman or Rivers I believe Losman aint a 1st rounder.
     
  38. SMadison29

    SMadison29 What Sherman aspires to be

    Joined:
    Sep 2001
    Messages:
    8,585
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hell I'd take Rivers in 2nd round. My point all along has been that he's not a first rounder & we better not reach to take him 20th overall.
     
  39. finfan54

    finfan54 A True Fan Donator

    Joined:
    Aug 2002
    Messages:
    26,170
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Dan used to say " you can either throw it, or you cant." i think dan found he could throw it.
     
  40. finfan54

    finfan54 A True Fan Donator

    Joined:
    Aug 2002
    Messages:
    26,170
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Cussssssssssss madison wants.....................u guessed it! A WR!
    woooohooooooooo! forget Oline, we can get some scrubbs in the 7th round for that!:lol:
     
  41. NavyFishFan

    NavyFishFan F*** YOU WAYNE!

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    1,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Gotta give ya that...still I don't think that's enough to discount him. He's got too many other solid abilities and intangibles. The way the guy carries himself says alot to me is all.

    That said I wouldn't mind him OR Losman, and I think they're both 1st round capable. Of course that's relative to how many teams feel they need a young QB.
     
  42. Noland

    Noland A True Fan

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    1,586
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Rivers breaks records for NCAA and breaks alot of Wolfpack records. One of the best passer's and best decision makers I have ever seen and he has'nt earned a first round pick. This guy is the right size all around for the NFL. Teams a draft skinny qb like Joey Harrington and Tim Couch which I like both players no disrespect but to me besides his mechanics which I dont care about his mechanics if he can get it done. I believe is better than both of those QB's atleast Tim Couch.

    I like his attitude and how tough he is and how he don't get rattled very easy.
     
  43. finfan54

    finfan54 A True Fan Donator

    Joined:
    Aug 2002
    Messages:
    26,170
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0

    hey madison, have you ever been set up and knocked down before? Did you ever think for a minute that they might be saying that so that he doesnt get drafted until they draft in the second round? QB's are the most needed commodity.
     
  44. Dolphins17-0

    Dolphins17-0 Pro Bowler

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yea, it's like i said before, so much of what is said now is just mindgames. everyone has their real list and rankings which they keep internal and then what they tell the public. Why do you think guys like Kiper get so many picks wrong even on draft day despite knowing the college game better than most and talking to all the GMs ahead of time. Can't buy too much into the talk, it's fun to speculate, but with draft day trades and free agency, everything is so far from being determined.
     
  45. finfan54

    finfan54 A True Fan Donator

    Joined:
    Aug 2002
    Messages:
    26,170
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0

    thats it for me too. I love the Arm thang all day long. having an arm isnt really in question. if you didnt have an arm, you wouldnt be rated this high already. the thing is to be accurate, hit WR's in stride, read defenses, and "feel" the pressure and have the instincts. To have leadership skills. To be teachable to the ways of the NFL. I dont see much that this kid is missing in those reguards so far. I think everyone should sit back and watch him this weekend and then judge for yourselves.
     
  46. ciscopack

    ciscopack Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    NC State fan here...... I came here to see what was being said about Philip and it looks like you guys have mixed emotions. Forget Philip's mechanics........no QB can have any kind of throwing motion and gets passes above the defensive lineman's outstretched arms......any QB needs passing lanes. You get your linemen to give them to Philip and your receivers to run good routes, they will be hit in the hands with passes. Can the guy start for a NFL team? He could start for them tomorrow. Whatever team choses him will get a winner and a leader. He reminds me of PEYTON Manning. The guy can run an offense. He was born to play QB; he got his awkward passing motion from throwing regulation footballs at his father's high practices when he was 3. No one has been stupid enough to change it and no one should now. I'm hoping you'll choose him, because I want to see him in warm weather and on grass but he'll get it done anywhere. Don't take him and my feeling is that you'll wish you had. .........On a side note, I don't know what his father's plans are but I'm guessing he'll be flying to watch Philip play and he may move to Philip's team's city? I hope the Athens, AL native stays in Raleigh and goes to the games from there. He's currently the head coach at Wakefield High and is the new high school's only head football coach so far (4 years and 4 years of improvement). I'm a country boy and I played football, basketball and baseball with Wakefield's AD. If Steve does move and it's to Miami, he'd make a great head coach at one of the Dade, Broward or Palm Beach County schools.
     
  47. NavyFishFan

    NavyFishFan F*** YOU WAYNE!

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    1,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    And THAT'S.....the rest....of the story :D
     
  48. Noland

    Noland A True Fan

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    1,586
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    ciscopack I am a Tarheel fan an I live in North Carolina I tell you your exactly right. There were'nt a saturday that I did'nt say I wished he played for the tarheels esspecialy when he played us as bad as the rivalries are Rivers was and is my favorite player an I always pulled for him to do well.
     
  49. SMadison29

    SMadison29 What Sherman aspires to be

    Joined:
    Sep 2001
    Messages:
    8,585
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    More Rivers bashing from NFL scouts.

    After one pass, an NFC scout stated Rivers "from-the-ear" delivery is so bad there's no need to send pass rushers against him, rather just have linemen extend their hands skyward to bat away the ball. A rival scout shot back and likened Rivers throwing motion to the golf swing of Chi-Chi Rodriguez stating, "you may not like the process, but it's the end result that matters," referring to the signal callers high completion percentage.
     
  50. NavyFishFan

    NavyFishFan F*** YOU WAYNE!

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    1,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah....there's such a wide variety of opinion from all of these "experts" you can't count on jack....good or bad. If he's been dead accurate up to medium range, how can the guy say that about blocking passes? Doesn't add up.
     

Share This Page