So let me understand this?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Tannchise, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. Vaark

    Vaark Nihil taurus crappus Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Tannehill was the 3rd most accurate long ball passer in 2016, how much more of an effective QB could you replace him with to throw deep to Landry? LOL

    Love Landry, love his heart, toughness, ability to break tackles, etc but the fact of the matter is he's slow for a wideout and that limits him beating CBs downfield especially on anticipation routes. Short passes and letting him do his thing really exploits his best skills But let's not let facts get in the way of raging OCD, eh?
     
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  2. JTech194

    JTech194 Starter

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    Yes I do agree that Grant did very well when given the opportunity however, I would like to see how he does when teams scout and factor him into a game plan. Sometimes it can be a big difference once teams gameplan specifically for a player.
     
  3. Dolphins512

    Dolphins512 My Friends Call Me Bob Finheaven VIP Donator

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    you are in good company
     
  4. DefensiveEnd76

    DefensiveEnd76 Football Guru

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    I agree Parker is a big underachiever and Carroo has been a bust so far. Those 2 need to step up in 2018.
     
  5. TeeMoney

    TeeMoney Penny Wise and Dollar Dumb Finheaven VIP

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    Landry is an angry dwarf. He run's bubble screens and short routes cause that's all he can do. He is good -3 to +7 yards to the line of scrimmage. He tries so hard that you wish other's tried as hard as he does. IF he goes to another team, he will do the same for them. NO team will win a game because they have Landry on it.
     
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  6. finmann

    finmann Pro Bowler

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    Landry is an important part of this Dolphins team, but the feeling I get is that the FO seems to be tired of him and his antics, not to mention his salary demand. This is just an opinion of course but the mere fact that we haven't resigned him although he is the "heart and soul" of this team not to mention that according to some he is our only legitimate receiver speaks volumes. If we resign landry I will not be surprised, but there is more going on here behind the scenes.
     
  7. Miami 13

    Miami 13 Pro Bowler

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    Did you say the same thing when we had Welker? If Landry went to NE he would destroy us twice a year for 5 years.
     
  8. artdnj

    artdnj Time is Now Finheaven VIP

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    100 percent disagree, he'll lead any team in catches and if utilized properly with a avg plus qb and oc he will be a pro bowler. That being said, there has to be a pay ceiling but calling him out as a strictly bubble screen guy is outrageous, ridiculous really.
     
  9. NBP81

    NBP81 Yippi ka yay mother******! Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Do you think NE would pay Landry 14M per?
     
  10. Dolphins81

    Dolphins81 Well-Known Member

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    I definitely agree and pray that doesn’t happen. But NE won’t pay him top dollar.
     
  11. DefensiveEnd76

    DefensiveEnd76 Football Guru

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    Landry does not deserve to get #1 WR money. He is not a true game breaking WR who averages 17 yards per catch and 15 or more TDs per season.
     
  12. NBP81

    NBP81 Yippi ka yay mother******! Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Leading a team in catches is purely a function of targets... Landry is top 10 in targets in the NFL... Of the top 10, he's 9th in yards, 10th in Y/C, 7th in 1st downs, and 10th in 20+ plays...
    Fun fact: *All* of Landry's 9 TDs came from inside the opponents 10 yard line...
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  13. Phinatic8u

    Phinatic8u Adam ****ing Gase

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    But, when he had Ryan throwing him the ball he had a 12.4? ypc last year. That’s pretty respectable. If he can keep up the redzone production and get a couple more big play touchdowns that he’s done in his career he can be a consistent 8-10 TD guy.
     
  14. BobDole

    BobDole Suck it Trebek

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    Rewind to this time last year and he wasn't worth it because he couldn't score TDs. Remember that? His skill set didn't lend itself to getting into the endzone. It was tragically stupid. People that think we're better off moving on will change the reasoning to fit the narrative.

    You don't think he's important. Cool beans. But if he was the ONLY one producing with the crapfest we had at QB, what does that make the other WRs? Stills is better although he was invisible most Sundays? He was off because of Cutler but Landry was force feeding himself the ball within 3 yards of the LOS? And hilarity ensues.

    Just say you don't like him as a person and be done with it. Best of luck to him ... all that. No need to make **** up.
     
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  15. J. David Wannyheimer

    J. David Wannyheimer Tape Guys vs Analytics Guys Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Landry's a good player but I don't want the Dolphins to put themselves in a bad salary cap position to retain him.

    The one knock I have on him on the field -- when the play's in progress -- is that he seems to have issues with option routes. I think that's something that with dedication and experience won't be an issue, but there have definitely been plays where the quarterback threw the ball as if he was going to break away from coverage, but he took his route right into coverage.
     
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  16. TeeMoney

    TeeMoney Penny Wise and Dollar Dumb Finheaven VIP

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    Landry is perfect if If your team lives on 3rd and 4 he may get 5 or 6 yards, or you can slip a screen in there and punt. That's the dude.
     
  17. NBP81

    NBP81 Yippi ka yay mother******! Finheaven VIP Donator

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    So you think Landry warrants a long term 14M per commitment?
     
  18. DuderinoN703

    DuderinoN703 We? What the **** we? Finheaven VIP Donator

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    In one less season of NFL experience, Landry has 178 more catches, 453 more yards, and 4 less TDs than Stills. For just being a 5 yards a catch and dust guy, he somehow has better stats than Kenny.
     
  19. BobDole

    BobDole Suck it Trebek

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    I think we really backed ourselves into a corner with the Stills contract regarding Landry. I think $12 is the sweet spot. $14 is tough ... $15 is too much. Parker's development could also make it interesting. Have an out after a few seasons so you don't have $40 mil+ invested into one 3 man unit.

    It's not an easy call. I mean, Tannenbaum will have final say as to what that contract looks like. Yikes.
     
  20. Liphinphan

    Liphinphan FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    People can argue back and forth about stats and production, but what you wrote is the bottom line.....and the question that needs to be answered. If he is looking for 13-14M per commitment, do you give it to him? I like the player a lot, that number not so much. I'm still sitting on the fence about it, but leaning towards keeping him and hoping for closer to 11-12M with more guaranteed money
     
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  21. Phantom

    Phantom Phantom Donator

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    Exactly what I am saying, they play two different positions and can't be compared to each other.
     
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  22. XxfeensterxX

    XxfeensterxX FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    You must be blind ,stupid, or a combination of the both to think Landry is just an "average short yardage receiver". Double up on that statement if you think going off stats with Jay ****ing Cutler under center is any real way to evaluate Landry. Cutler averaged 6.2 yards per attempt vs Tannehills 7.7 in 2016. The offense was handcuffed and our WRs suffered the consequences.

    Does this mean pay him 14 million a year? Hell no, but some of the comments regarding him are so far from the truth I wonder how many of you even watch the full games anymore... The dudes a gamer, and even if my team isn't going to win they better be competing day in and day out. I look foward to seeing him in a Dolphins uniform with RT17 leading us.

    Oh, just for reference the lowest RT17s YPA ever got to was 6.7 his 2nd year.
     
  23. Kdawg954

    Kdawg954 Paint on My Hands from Paintin the Perfect Picture Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I am just amazed at the amount of people who really think the difference between 12 million and 14 million is the difference between keeping Landry and saying good bye.

    Of course Miami will try to negotiate the best contract for them and set a value on Jarvis, but with the franchise tag in their back pocket that 2 million dollar difference will not be an issue in regards to whether he is a Fin or not.

    If Miami wants him, he'll be a Dolphin in 2018.
     
  24. Lionstone

    Lionstone A True Fan

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    Thank you for making everyone’s opposing view point for them. There is a simple maxim with the NFL. Get the ball to your best players. Thank you for unequivocally stating that Landry is the best player on offense. It is good to know where you stand.
     
  25. Danny

    Danny FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Wouldn't that tag cost about 16mill? If the team doesn't want to pay him 14mill then why would they pay him 16?

    Ozzy rules!!
     
  26. BobDole

    BobDole Suck it Trebek

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    I agree in general but it's not just him or that contract though. It's the agents looking at that wondering if they can get a few extra million for their clients too.

    I also think the market dictates this stuff more than we give it credit for. I could see Landry's deal being right around what those last few receivers got. $14 is looking like a decent metric to base it on. I'm fine with it.
     
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  27. Kdawg954

    Kdawg954 Paint on My Hands from Paintin the Perfect Picture Finheaven VIP Donator

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    The market absolutely dictates it and this WR market is looking thin as ever, which is why the franchise tag will be a powerful tool in negotiations. If Juice got on the open market and went to the highest bidder, Miami would not have a chance. That contract could escalate to 16m+ AAV rather easily with teams needing to spend cap and most contracts only 2 or 3 years either way (despite the fancy details on the outside).

    If they cannot work something out, expect Jarvis to be franchised and they will settle on something likely in that 12 to 13 million range with a good amount of guaranteed money. We saw it last year with guys like Melvin Ingram. Franchised and eventually signed long term. These guys not trying to play on one year deals that don't at least somewhat guarantee their future. Hell Landry is a perfect example with how close he is to Beckham Jr. They all want as much money as possible but they also know they don't have as much power as being a FA would lend you to believe.
     
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  28. FinfanInBuffalo

    FinfanInBuffalo Perennial All-Pro Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Let me do a little name substitution and re-write for you:

    We have only one legitimate WR on the team, in Landry. Parker is not a #1, Stills just goes deep, Carroo is a bust and Grant is slowly coming along. So first of all, we are talking about not keeping Tannehill, right? However, he is producing like he has at least 2-3 WRs right now. I know the next thing that will be discussed is stats and his average per attempt. So because we don't have a vertical WR in house, a shaky line and play calling that requires bubble screens as a solution to run the ball, Tannehill has to pay the price for this? Think about it, for a sec. He is basically the only option in the passing game, and has been. It is not his fault that he has to throw short passes and advance it to average 8-9 yards a play. This board and this team has no vision. You have to picture the guy with decent talent around him. Just because they don't have a coach, WR or OL, doesn't mean Tannehill can't be really effective. Think about it on a level playing field this year. Julius is Julius from Denver, Parker is an Alpha X, Stills takes the top off the ball. Oh and we actually don't have a scrub line

    Still like the logic and reasoning? I like it both ways. Do you?
     
  29. Awsi Dooger

    Awsi Dooger A True Fan

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    Great post.

    For me it is not complicated. I have a life long hatred of short passes. I have laughed at screen passes and specifically third down screen passes for 30 years.

    I don't like to make exceptions. When you make exceptions you are fooling and betraying yourself. This board and Dolphins fans in general understand that a feature wide out with low yards per reception is not ideal, and that a penalty-craving jerk is not ideal. But we want to make an exception for Jarvis Landry. That's the same type of thinking that lends itself to low percentage adjustments at other positions and in personnel acquisition period.

    As I posted the other day, the argument is reversed:

    * What would we do without him?

    Nope

    * Imagine what we could do without him

    Someone here posted that Tannehill's YPA plummeted a full half yard in 2016 due to screen passes alone. I don't have to guess who was on the other end of a large percentage of those screen passes. In 2018 we figure to have an uptick season, based on the natural bounce after you drop from 10 wins to 6. Once the arrow is in your favor it's possible to dramatically exceed the expectation, not to merely nudge beyond it. You have to take full advantage of those seasons. To allow Tannehill a chance at a true breakout season and to establish himself as a Top 10 quarterback at long last, we need to be throwing aggressively downfield and to actually score enough points to place ourselves in great position toward a high playoff seeding, not barely squeaking in as the 6th seed.

    Take a risk for a change. It actually feels good. There is nothing risky about dump off passes to jittery little Jarvis Landry barely on either side of the line of scrimmage. If you give Tannehill that bail out he'll take it. Don't give him the chance to take it. Again, it's like that look into the future and protecting the future, another version of, "Edith Keeler must die." Those short crossing routes on 3rd and 10 must die.

    Besides, a guy with a skill set like that does not improve over the years. He won't get any faster or become more of a downfield threat. His style logically lends itself to the reverse, to getting dinged up and breaking fewer and fewer tackles. There were already indications of that this season. He never showed the ferocity similar to that catch and run against the Cardinals in 2016. Landry seemed to sense he was less of a threat so he resorted to more antics, more emphasis on catch numbers, and pathetic touchdown celebrations.
     
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  30. Tannchise

    Tannchise A True Fan

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    We thought Stills was going to kill us. It is all about guaranteed money. Look at Tannehill. Signed a $96m deal.
     
  31. NBP81

    NBP81 Yippi ka yay mother******! Finheaven VIP Donator

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    There has to be a limit somewhere? If 14M is fine for you, then it's ok if they give him 16M?... It's just a 2M difference...I mean at some point you draw a line... IMO 12M is that line...
     
  32. Kdawg954

    Kdawg954 Paint on My Hands from Paintin the Perfect Picture Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Nah that is where you utilize your franchise tag option and continue negotiating . . . like most big boy teams do in the NFL. There is always a cap and just because one player says I won't take anything less than 16 million in negotations while your number maybe at 11 for that player . . . it doesn't mean a deal can't be worked out eventually.

    I think it must be said that Miami will likely give in a little here to get a long term deal done because they know they got top of the line production from a guy that they only gave 3.5 million dollars to over the last 4 seasons and they don't wanna tie up franchise tag money on the 2018 cap.

    So even if that number is 14 or 15 . . . Miami will look at it as . . . damn we got Jarvis for 8 years, got top production for 8 years and we paid under 8 million AAV for it (lets assume 4 years/60 million plus 4 years 3.5 million). They will still feel like they had a top 10 WR at a bargain price while he was in a Fins uniform over that time period.

    Just putting some perspective on it. Either way its the guaranteed number that makes the deal anway. Jarvis would much prefer a 5 year/60 million dollar deal with the first 2 years guaranteed at 25 million . . . over a 5 year/75 million deal with the first 2 years guaranteed at 15 million.
     
  33. Danny

    Danny FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    So what you're saying is that if he didn't get a lot on his first 4 years then we need to make up for it by over paying for him? Then let me ask you this, will Parker, James and Harris give back some of what they made on their early years because they didn't played like first round picks?
    Sorry but that makes no sense to me. You pay them what they're worth now and you need a pay structure. Once you start making exceptions you'll end up with a team full of them.

    Ozzy rules!!
     
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  34. NBP81

    NBP81 Yippi ka yay mother******! Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Yeah I'm not sure I buy the you were cheap for us so we're going to give you more... But thats fine! You view Landry as a top 10 WR, and I disagree... He's a great slot receiver, but he is limited. I don't think he should be counting more than 12M against the cap. Ideally he'd be around 10 but with the WR FA market the way it is this year, it's not realistic.
     
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  35. Honeybager08

    Honeybager08 Member

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    This front office is a joke. If they pay him anything close to 14 mil a season, I will stop watching. They have too many positions to upgrade on this team. Why would you pay 14 or 16 mil for a slot guy? I wouldn't pay a slot guy 10 million... I would draft Anthony Miller or Christian Kirk in the second round and put that money into paying quality interior linemen. Hell, I'd cut Pouncy too and pay Ryan Jensen from Baltimore. This front office is a freaking joke.
     
  36. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    We can lose Landry and be fine. He's not a Julio or Green type
     
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  37. mwestberry

    mwestberry Well-Known Member

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    Landry is a piece to a puzzle but the picture is incomplete without an Alpha receiving threat....so as complimentary as he is to an offense he is not a number one playmaking type threat...to pay him as such a receiver is, IMO, a mistake.

    What he does consistently is lose control and cost the team in penalties, and now, ejections....his antics are escalating. To pay a ransom for such childish undisciplined play is a mistake.

    Is he a legitimate player that can add value to a team?...Absolutely...Is he worth locking up 12-14 million a year?...not IMO....Our team doesn't have the cap or the talent to compensate for what he brings to the table. If we had a top dog receiver that could threaten to score every play(much like A. Brown or J. Jones) then it would be easier to stomach who Landry is......but we don't....He is not a play maker that gives us an advantage on the scoreboard....if he was the ppg would indicate his value...of course this is only an opinion from a long time fan of the Dolphins...
     
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  38. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    ryan jensen is a dirty player
     
  39. MarxBrother

    MarxBrother FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    See, this right here is what kills me. Tanehill is what, the 3rd or 4th passer in the NFL with a clean pocket. What does that tell you? It tells me that upgrading the QB is about the lowest priority on a list that is a mile long. Landry? I want him back at about 11 million, nothing more. But letting him go creates another hole unless people believe Caroo can step up. I believe he can, but I'm an old Scarlet Knight so I am biased.
     
  40. DolfanDuBbZ~

    DolfanDuBbZ~ Avoid the 'Noid

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    That "heart and soul" left his team in a bind because of his boorish after play antics. And it will only get worse going forward. Too many within the division understand how to push his buttons. And Landry has shown zero maturity in his ability to deal with it.
     
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