The Book on Ireland's Drafts

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by SkapePhin, Jan 9, 2013.

  1. SkapePhin

    SkapePhin Rump Shaker Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Solid in Round 1
    Poor/Mediocre in Round 2 & 3
    Good/Solid in Round 4 - 7
    Good/Great with Undrafted FA

    Doesn't bode well for the 5 picks in 1st 3 rounds, but this seems to be the book on his drafts. He has yet to completely whiff in Round 1 which is good, but he has some notable gaffes in round 2 & 3. Does a pretty solid job on all the late round picks.

    Agree or Disagree?
     
  2. retarmyfinfan

    retarmyfinfan Brave Rifles Donator

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    There is people on this forum who could do better than Ireland.
     
  3. LANGER72

    LANGER72 A True Fan

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    I would like to see a more detailed list of all 5 of the drafts that he participated in and the FA signings for that year.

    It should make for some excellent discussion and definitely a few face palms and eye rolls.

    IMHO..Ireland sucks, but I would not mind seeing his body of failure
     
  4. SkapePhin

    SkapePhin Rump Shaker Finheaven VIP Donator

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    You would need to compar it against drafts from other GMs during that time period to really make sense of the data. Can't really compare it in a vacuum. You need to determine what is the success rate of draft picks in each round for "successful" GMs and then compare Ireland's work against that.
     
  5. Spesh

    Spesh #freespesh

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    Disagree for a couple reasons(great Undrafted FA?)but will focus on the highlighted part.

    According to many on here Vontae Davis was one of the worst players in the history of the NFL and we stole a second round pick from the Colts. Personally, i dont buy that, but isnt it a complete whiff when our first round pick isnt worth keeping on the team?
     
  6. SkapePhin

    SkapePhin Rump Shaker Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I wouldn't consider it a whiff if the player still retains a 2nd round value and helped contribute to wins during their time here. I would consider Ted Ginn a first round whiff. We had to ship him off for a 6th to get rid of him. Likewise, Jason Allen was a 1st round whiff. When a guy nets you a 2nd round pick 4 years after he was drafted, you have to say there is some value there.
     
  7. Valandui

    Valandui Lumberjack Batman Donator

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    Also, our first overal pick is about to be on another team. Two out of five being gone already isn't solid, especially when you look at who we passed on.
     
  8. SkapePhin

    SkapePhin Rump Shaker Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Find me another team whose 1st round picks over a 5 years span are still all starters in the same team in year 6? I would actually be very interested to know.
     
  9. Valandui

    Valandui Lumberjack Batman Donator

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    It can't be both ways. You can't whiff on 40% of your picks and also be solid in the first round. Add in all of the second round misses and it isn't a pretty picture.
     
  10. Spesh

    Spesh #freespesh

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    So buying high and selling low is a shrewd strategy for team building? Its perfectly acceptable for your first round picks to not be on your team so long as you get lower value for them?

    And what wins did Vontae contribute towards? He was drafted in '09. We havent had a winning season since '08. Were those 7-9 and 6-10 seasons that valuable to the history of this franchise? It wouldnt surprise me if some on this forum felt that they were.
     
  11. Spesh

    Spesh #freespesh

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    Lets keep it going: Jared Odrick is either delegated to playing a position he isnt suited for or he is a back-up. Mike Pouncey is a good player but was the highest drafted center ever.

    Simply plugging holes, especially when you dont plug them and trade/let the player walk later, isnt enough. Quality of the players matter. As well, our general manager clearly places a premium on positional importance. Offensive lineman have a higher hit rate than, say, quarterback or pass rushers. To declare it a victory because Ireland drafted 2 lineman in 4 years is absurd, especially since it looks like Long is walking. I dont see it as any different then us drafting a kicker in the first then declaring Ireland's "success" rate in the first is outstanding because he "hasnt" busted on a player.
     
  12. SkapePhin

    SkapePhin Rump Shaker Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Jake Long went to 3 pro bowls on this team. He contributed. How can a pro bowl player be a whiff if he contributed on a high level for several years? If RG3 is out of the league in 3 years due to injuries, is he a whiff too? I think you guys are aging semantics at this point. Both Vontae and Jake contributes greatly to the team while they were here, unlike Ginn and Allen. For that reason, I wouldn't consider them whiffed picks.
     
  13. Spesh

    Spesh #freespesh

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    Yup. Spending a top 2 pick on a player who gives you 5(or in this case 3) years? Absolutely a whiff.

    Lets flip this around: what about Robert Gallery. Is he a whiffed draft pick or not? He was a horrific tackle, just a complete bust for where he was picked, but he had a good season at guard. By all accounts, you would consider that a "solid" second overall pick.

    How about Ronnie Brown? He was actually on the team for a winning season, but had what...1 good statistical season? Was he a "solid" draft pick?

    What is your criteria for "non-whiffed" picks? 5 good seasons? If they have a single good year but are hot garbage for 4, do you consider that a great pick? How about if they never contribute to a winning record, still a great pick?

    Apparently, myself and others have a higher opinion on first round picks. Granted, some consider Ireland a great general manager so they might have a skewed opinion on the importance of draft picks.
     
  14. miamiron

    miamiron A True Fan

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    That wouldn't work because it's more difficult for a draft pick to make a top team versus a team coming off a 1-15 season where most of the draft class should become the nucleus for the future. Look at our 2008 draft when 9 players were selected and all nine players are no longer on this team.




    Plus we don't know how much of a say Ireland had in the early drafts and even though I have doubts galore regarding Ireland
    I cannot definitively say WHICH PLAYERS HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR.
     
  15. The Omen

    The Omen Well-Known Member

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    Long was a wiff because he might go to another team that will essentially outbid us? That's not a whiff if he is desired by other teams, as a matter a fact with all his 2012 woes and once Clady is locked up by Denver, if Long hits the Market he will be the most desired FA LT... Hardly a wiff

    VD wasn't a whiff either, before the season started we got a 2nd round pick from the team that had the 1st overall pick just months prior... Just our luck the Colts go and turn a 2-14 team into a playoff team... Guys like Allen and Jamar Flethcher, now those are whiffs!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2013
  16. Wildbill3

    Wildbill3 Misery Loves Company Administrator Finheaven VIP

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    *Whiff* is definately NOT the right term to describe our draft picks from the 1st round. First Whiff is a swing and miss without even touching the ball on a strikeout. Long Obviously is a good player. Vontae was good enough to still have a 2nd round value. NOT Whiffs.
     
  17. WaxOn WaxOff

    WaxOn WaxOff Starter Finheaven VIP

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    The Book on Ireland's Drafts



    They made a book about THIS? Good luck selling that!
     
  18. datruth55

    datruth55 Starter

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    Same time period that Ireland has had:

    Atlanta
    2008 - Matt Ryan, Sam Baker
    2009 - Peria Jerry
    2010 - Sean Weatherspoon
    2011 - Julio Jones
    2012 - None, traded to Cleveland in trade up for Jones.

    Cleveland
    2008 - None, didn't have a pick till the 4th round
    2009 - Alex Mack
    2010 - Joe Haden
    2011 - Phillip Taylor
    2012 - Trent Richardson, Brandon Weeden

    Detroit
    2008 - Gosder Cherilus
    2009 - Matt Stafford, Brandon Pettigrew
    2010 - Ndamukong Suh, Jahvid Best (miss all of last season due to concussions)
    2011 - Nick Fairley
    2012 - Riley Reiff

    Houston
    2008 - Duane Brown
    2009 - Brian Cushing
    2010 - Kareem Jackson
    2011 - J.J. Watt
    2012 - Whitney Mercilus (only 4 starts though)

    I'll stop there.
     
  19. Valandui

    Valandui Lumberjack Batman Donator

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    Also, Clay Matthews would still be on the team.
     
  20. Marino420TD

    Marino420TD Seasoned Veteran

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    So, is it good or bad that we have 4 picks this year in the range where Ireland drafts the worst?
     
  21. SkapePhin

    SkapePhin Rump Shaker Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Thanks for the info. It is interesting to see that 2 of those teams finished with far worse records than the Dolphins, and 1, the Browns have been dreadful. In all honesty, I really don't even recognize that many names on that list and I consider myself a pretty well informed NFL fan. A lot of those names are marginal starters, and probably on their way out (Fairley) You certainly can't argue against the job Houston has done. They have had incredible drafts, but even with all that, they will won't advance past the divisional round in the playoffs. But I certainly would trade our drafts for theirs. Same goes for Atlanta.

    That being said, our first round picks are still what one could consider "solid". The main gripe I have with Ireland's drafts is that he has failed to ever acquire a player that I would term a superstar at their position. That is a failure. However, at least we aren't wasting 1st round picks on dreck like Jason Allen or Ted Ginn anymore. I never claimed the 1st rounders were great, merely solid, and thats what they are. They have all been solid, starting contributors during their time on the team.
     
  22. Valandui

    Valandui Lumberjack Batman Donator

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    That is the question.
     
  23. phintim

    phintim Seasoned Veteran

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    Agree! I also agree with your comment he has not drafted a total real stud either. Like you I have been following our drafts a very long time and we have had a ton of misses in the first round so I do give Ireland credit there. I also believe you have to consider that the players Ireland drafted for Sporano will be jettisoned from Philbin team in many cases just because they just do not fit the scheme well. That in itself does not make them bad picks either. I also believe this year that some of then picks made under Sporano played much better under Philbins guidance thus making me consider how many of the picks that did not work out have to do with the coaching.

    Now before I get creamed for this post let me add I have never been in favor of the Vonte trade plus I am never opposed to improving the talent on then Phins roster and if that includes replacing Ireland I am OK with that but not in favor of just making a change at GM position just for change sake because I do believe we have endured a lot worse for a lot longer around here.
     
  24. LANGER72

    LANGER72 A True Fan

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    They were not whiff picks, but they were the wrong picks using long term thinking. Ireland is an impulse shopper.
    Ireland cannot ever get it right. He is constantly creating new holes to fill. That is why we are stuck in mediocrity.
     
  25. phintim

    phintim Seasoned Veteran

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    At the time of the picks under Ireland the picks made sense and they were not on implulse if you follow his drafts. Now whiffing on the picks is a whole other subject and is all in opinion of the person. Lets look back at the picks made and what was happening at the time that led do many of the decisions of those picks. I will break it out by draft and year.
    Long, Merling, Henne, Langford, Murphy, Thomas, Hillard, Parnalle, Dotson in 08
    V. Davis, Pat White, Sean Smith, P. Turner, B Hartline, J Nalbone, Clemons, Gardner, Folsom in 09
    Odrick, Msi, Jerry, AJ Edds. Carroll, Jones, Spitler, McCoy in 10
    Pouncy, Daniel Thomas, Gates, Clay, Krearse, Wilson in 11
    R. Tannehill, Martin, Vernon, Ednew, Miller, Kaddu, Cunningham, Randall, Mathews in 12

    Year of the line. In 2008 the trificita arrived and Parcells announced his philophy to the world prior to the draft that for building the team was first build the lines on the team so he sent his boy Ireland shopping and we drafted 3 offensive, 3 defensive lineman along with 2 late picks on RB and the 2nd rounder on Henne in that draft. We also traded a late pick for Tony McDaniel so make that 4 picks used on defensive linemen. At the end of this year the decision was made that the Wildcat was out path to sucess so next was the
    Year of the playmeakers. In 2009 to take the next step and draft for the wildcat and offensive and defensive play makers. So we drafted 3 recievers, 3 defensive backs and Pat White to make the wildcat hum along with another offensive lineman late and a linebacker. After 2009 Parcells realized that the Wildcat failed, we needed a offensive playmaker plus our defense had collasped so we fired the defensive coodinator and tht next years draft was the Year of the new defense, linebackers and Brandon Marshall. In 2010 we drafted 3 linebackers, traded 2 picks for Brandon Marshall, drafted 2 defensive ends types and OL Jerry. After the phins offense failed to deliver in 2010 the offensive coordinator was fired , Ricky Williams, Ronnie Brown, Patrick Cobb L. Polite and the ground and pound were jettisioned and 2011 becames the Year of the new offense and the need for speed. In 2011 with our offensive line still in shambels and no running backs our first 4 picks were spent on offensive weapons to spread the field with the emphsis on speed with the last couple of late picks thrown in for defense. At the end of 2011 after firing the head coach, jettisioning the starting QB and enduring the worst right tackle in the league we enter the this year as the Year of the new Quarterback. Our first pick was spent on a QB and our second on a tackle to protect him.

    So Irelands picks are not random at all in fact you can almost predick them and under Parcells you could almost pick the players we were going to draft before the draft because of the requirements of size that Parcells demanded in his drafted players. I believe that Ireland has moved away from that model after reviewing the players selected in 2011 and 2012. I beleive this is a good thing because now Ireland has a greater pool of players to choose from. In other words if the guy is a little shorter and lighter than what I call the Parcells model Ireland is drafting the guy. During his frist 3 -4 drft under Parcells you could see the positions that Ireland was going to draft early in the draft along with the probable players but later in the draft Ireland would sway from that model and in many cases as have been commented his later picks and college free agents have worked out better than his picks in round 2-4. In this years draft Jeff I believe finally broke that mold and other than Egnew and possibly Kaddu the picks look fairly solid all the way down the line.

    So what to expect in the 2013 draft I am predicting spending that first picks on defensive end to rush the passer, with the next 3 picks to be WR/TE, CB and OL maybe not in that order.
    I expect and hope in FA we pick a big name reciever, good guard, punishing RB and qb. In FA other than the reciever type these other positions should be affordable with the veteran QB a backup type.
    I hope and expect us to resign Hartline, Fasano, Clemons, Smith and maybe Bush. These guys except maybe Smith should be affordable, young and fit the system.
    Because of salary, age and depth at certain positions I see us letting Starks, McDaniels, Long, Moore and Bush probably walk
     
  26. finfan54

    finfan54 A True Fan Donator

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    Lazy thread. lazy lazy lazy. you have to attach the players names in order to asses the totality. But what Datruth did on VIP was totality of the entire league. Which showed so many misses in the league its not funny. the grass is always greener somewhere other than south florida.
     
  27. Danny

    Danny FinHeaven VIP

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    Those "solid picks" were Ireland's picks.....then Parcells drafted guys in the 2 and 3 round(bad picks are his fault, never Irealnd)and then Ireland took over at the start of round 4.Then look at Ireland getting undrafted rookies......he got us Bess(Parcells was in charge that year but Bess was Ireland's idea of course) and who else did we get as an undrafted rookie? I'm getting a little older and I'm sure I'm missing a few starters that Ireland got us after the draft was over.....just can't remember any of them right now....can someone help me out here?....hard to believe I'm missing all the names of all the "solid picks" that Ireland got from the 4 till the 7 round.

    Ozzy rules!!
     
  28. phintim

    phintim Seasoned Veteran

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    Well this year was a banner year for college fa makint the team with Lane, Shelby, Thigpin, Samuda for one.

    These are the draft picks that I know of still in the league

    Thomas, Hillard, Parmalle,in 08
    B Hartline,, Clemons, 09
    AJ Edds. Carroll, Jones, Spitler,in 10
    Gates, Clay, Krearse, Wilson in 11
    Miller, Kaddu, Cunningham, Randall, Mathews and Cunningham in 12
     
  29. Danny

    Danny FinHeaven VIP

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    Wow, look at all those probowlers....Ireland is just amazing......he just keeps on coming up with playmaker after playmaker.

    Ozzy rules!!
     
  30. RZA

    RZA Scout Team

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  31. rev kev

    rev kev THE DEFLATOR

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    :bobdole:

    I concede At the time I thought BP was going to pan out
    BP, Chad Pennington, Sparano, Ireland :puke:
     

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