The Dolphins' Blitz Packages Just Increased 10x

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ckparrothead, Oct 7, 2005.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    48,987
    Likes Received:
    557
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Now that Eric Moulds has confirmed what we all pretty much knew, that Kelly Holcomb is starting at QB for the Bills, the Dolphins just increased their blitz packages ten fold.

    This will be another "kitchen sink" day, much like against Jake Delhomme, but probably with much different results. Holcomb is nearly as stiff as Drew Bledsoe back there and not as savvy with making the checks and calls at the line of scrimmage as he would need to be to neutralize the blitz a la Peyton Manning.

    Expect Seau to play, and to blitz frequently. Expect Zach and Channing to blitz. Expect Lance Schulters and Travis Daniels to blitz. And possibly expect Lance Schulters to get ejected from the game when he intentionally throws a pile driver on Eric Moulds, who will probably spit in someone's face in this game just as he always does.
     
  2. phunwin

    phunwin The name's Bond...James Bond.

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    8,474
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    So, you're saying that the Phins WOULDN'T have thrown the kitchen sink at JP Losman? I don't think this changes the gameplan much, at least as far as how often the team blitzes is concerned.
     
  3. GreenMonster

    GreenMonster Never con a con man

    Joined:
    Apr 2005
    Messages:
    4,931
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Agreed, whoever is the QB this week will feel the heat. I think Losman would face more blitz's as he has proven not to be able to handle them.
     
  4. bigmiamifan

    bigmiamifan Perennial All-Pro

    Joined:
    Dec 2003
    Messages:
    3,977
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Not as much because he scrambles is what I believe the answer to your question, would be.
     
  5. phunwin

    phunwin The name's Bond...James Bond.

    Joined:
    Jan 2004
    Messages:
    8,474
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Losman's mobility is certainly an asset in making Miami pay for blitzing, that's true. However, the trade-off is his inability to see it coming. Holcomb is better at reading the blitz and would be more able to throw it away. So, I think it's six of one, half-dozen of another.
     
  6. thecoordinator

    thecoordinator Banned Hammered

    Joined:
    Apr 2005
    Messages:
    1,929
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    this is a very tough call to make because there is little film on holcomb in the bills offense. i think you feel better about blitzing jp because he hasn't shown the ability to consistently make throws. you might give up a scramble here and there but you don't fear giving up a big play. i think we will still want to put pressure on holcomb, but given his immobility and the bills offensive line struggles, we should be able to do that bringing only 1 LB, unlike with losman who has the ability to run out if you only send 1 guy and the d line doesnt get there. another tough thing is that you'd like to find out right off the bat how holcomb handles heavy pressure, but he has shown he can make plays with his arm in the past, and if we blitz early and get burned for a big play td, now the bills have all the momentum and were on the road down a TD. not how you'd like to start the game.
     
  7. HULKFish

    HULKFish Obsessed

    Joined:
    Aug 2005
    Messages:
    1,670
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    They were gameplanning for both and I wouldn't be too hasty with the blitzing... They may just start out vanilla in 4-3 base to see how effective it is before trying anything else. They may not need anything else but if the 403 isn't effective then I'd expect alot of movement.
     
  8. IceStorm

    IceStorm The High Tech Bong Monkey!

    Joined:
    Apr 2002
    Messages:
    2,271
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Sorry guys, but I just can't see Coach Saban saying "Oh...Holcomb is play? I guess we'll have to change our game plan now".
    I think he's smarter then that. After the last game, I see him preparing the secondary a little bit more. But not changing up the defensive scheme simply because one player isn't there.
     
  9. GreenMonster

    GreenMonster Never con a con man

    Joined:
    Apr 2005
    Messages:
    4,931
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think the gameplan should be to line up JT on Greg Jerman every play.
     
  10. Smacks

    Smacks Seasoned Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 2002
    Messages:
    846
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Before Miami and the fans go nuts, remember that one player always beats the crap out our D... That person is Eric Moulds...I'm not going to look and see what he has done the 1st 4 games of the season, I already know..throw that out of the window...for some reason when Moulds plays the Phins he is always putting up big days against our secondary...

    This game can go either way.....
     
  11. HULKFish

    HULKFish Obsessed

    Joined:
    Aug 2005
    Messages:
    1,670
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That is true but that was against the Press Man Coverage Dolphins..
     
  12. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    48,987
    Likes Received:
    557
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Saban himself admitted that Losman and Holcomb bring very different packages of skills to the table. In other words, that is an admission that the game plan would be different from one player to the other.

    Think of it this way: Jake Plummer vs. Jake Delhomme.

    That is what the breakdown between Losman and Holcomb is like.

    Against Plummer we kept the blitz packages on the shelf and played mostly 4-3 straightup D the way we use to play under Jim Bates (with of course a few added twists). Against Delhomme, because he is more of an immovable object out there, we threw everything but the kitchen sink at him in blitz packages and kept it going for four quarters.

    This is as basic as it comes guys. Against a scrambling man you play conservatively with the blitz packages and have all kinds of shadow techniques and whatnot. Against a sitting duck, unless his name is Peyton Manning, you toss everything but the kitchen sink at him to NEVER give him enough time to throw where he wants to. What is so great about Peyton is he reads the blitzes before the snap almost perfectly, audibles a cycle through 3 or 4 different plays, which actually gets the defense questioning their own play and makes their blitz less effective and more likely to get picked up, and then Peyton makes the hot read.

    Nobody in this league can do that as well as Peyton can. What you'll notice, is that the teams that have success against him (like, for instance, the Phins for all the years we've played him) are the teams that can line up 4 passrushers in the same spot every play, get decent pressure on the QB through individual matchups rather than blitzes, and sit back with 7 or sometimes 8 men in coverage at all times.

    There is absolutely no reason to do that against Kelly Holcomb, unless we think we can confuse him with our coverage assignments. But even so, if he gets confused he'll just launch deep to Eric Moulds and Lee Evans, both of which (especially Eric) have had plenty of success against the Phins.

    I am telling you right now, yes the game plan changed when they found out Holcomb is starting the game and that is the reason WHY Nick Saban is so smart (it makes no sense to say that Nick wouldn't change the game plan because he's too smart for that, because a smart coach WOULD change the game plan because of how different the two QBs are). And, yes, they will still have a game plan in place for when/if we see JP Losman in this game.
     
  13. dolphan117

    dolphan117 Premium Member Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 2005
    Messages:
    6,885
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I think one of the big things Saban has preached to this D is flexability. I would bet that both of these qb's were talked about during the week extensivly and we will be ready for either one.
     
  14. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Manning to Tyree = Best SB Play EVER!!!!

    Joined:
    Jun 2002
    Messages:
    12,439
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Saban said there is little different in the offense with JP and Holcomb.

    I think that one of the reasons you blitz Holcomb is the fact that this is his first time starting in a new offense. There are generally growing pains. Plus you want to shatter his confidence early and not let the team rally around the new quarterback. You kind of want to get into the other team's head and let them think "Doesn't matter who the qb is".
     
  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    48,987
    Likes Received:
    557
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I am sure they will, but with the word coming from one of the Bills' own players that Kelly is going to start the game, they just "flipped" onto the game plan that involves a huge variety of blitz packages.

    Look, here are Saban's own words on it...

    Basically, he did not want to go ahead and label it a BURDEN but the chances are with that question there isn't any situation in the league that he would label a "burden" because that is an admission of weakness.

    But this is about as burdensome as it gets without him labeling it a "burden" because Losman and Holcomb have games that are about as different as it gets.

    Like I was saying, we prepared a game plan for Jake Plummer, and we prepared a game plan for Jake Delhomme. They were two vastly different game plans. Now, we have to prepare a game plan for both those guys in one game.
     
  16. MtnFinFan

    MtnFinFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2005
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I haven't seen any of the Bills games but their o-line is being written up as being pretty porous and is second in giving up sacks. Was this due to their opponents heavily blitzing? Seems if they are having trouble with this you first see if you can get pressure from base d first. No need to put additional pressure on secondary if pressure can come from the front line.
     
  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    48,987
    Likes Received:
    557
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Actually Saban said there is a LOT different between the two, the only thing he doesn't count on being different is overall effectiveness, but that is more likely because he isn't about to come out and say "Well I think putting in Kelly Holcomb severely upgrades their offense, honestly..."
     
  18. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Manning to Tyree = Best SB Play EVER!!!!

    Joined:
    Jun 2002
    Messages:
    12,439
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That is not what he said on the Nick Saban show.
     
  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    48,987
    Likes Received:
    557
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Read the quote I just quoted above...particularly this part...

    "but I think in this case, it is not really a burden, but there are some significant differences in what the two guys (JP Losman and Kelly Holcomb) can do, in terms of what they do well."
     
  20. Agua

    Agua Fighting the media, one lie at a time

    Joined:
    Mar 2002
    Messages:
    6,344
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    38
    He said that Losman is more athletic and allows them to do some things to take advantage of his athleticism and that Holcomb, with more experience, allows them to do a little more from a game management perspective.

    That's paraphrased, but that's essentially what he said.
     
  21. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    48,987
    Likes Received:
    557
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Exactly what I would expect him to say, Saban is not about to tip his hand as to which quarterback he would approach which way. But one of the basics of affecting QBs on defense is you frustrate scrambling guys who have the ability to escape your passrush, and you blitz the crap out of guys who want to throw the ball down field yet don't have the tools to get out of the way.
     
  22. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Manning to Tyree = Best SB Play EVER!!!!

    Joined:
    Jun 2002
    Messages:
    12,439
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Differences in quarterbacks, not differences in offenses
     
  23. dolphan117

    dolphan117 Premium Member Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 2005
    Messages:
    6,885
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    We have had two weeks to get ready, I think we will be just fine.
     
  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    48,987
    Likes Received:
    557
    Trophy Points:
    113
    :rolleyes:

    That's a pretty finely split hair.
     
  25. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Manning to Tyree = Best SB Play EVER!!!!

    Joined:
    Jun 2002
    Messages:
    12,439
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    THAT is your opinion.
     
  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    48,987
    Likes Received:
    557
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Fine. Find me one statement from any dolphins player or coach that suggests the defensive game plan will not change whether Losman or Holcomb is in. Go ahead. It's not out there. Yet, I've found you a number of statements emphasizing what each QB does differently.

    Difference between a QB and an offense? Come on. The QB is clearly part of an offense. Simple logic dictates if the QB acts differently, the offense changes too.
     
  27. rafael

    rafael Hall Of Famer

    Joined:
    Aug 2002
    Messages:
    6,248
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    So your opinion is that the Bills will put in a QB that is better at throwing the ball down the field but will not attempt to throw more?
     
  28. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Manning to Tyree = Best SB Play EVER!!!!

    Joined:
    Jun 2002
    Messages:
    12,439
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    My opinion is that the difference in quarterback has little to do with the amount of blitzing in this offense due to the small change between how the offense is run due to the different quarterbacks AND the state of their offensive line.

    I feel the amount of blitzing will be directly be determined on how much pressure Miami can get with just rushing 4 guys.
     
  29. WharfRat

    WharfRat A True Fan

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    17,876
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    true...but it was also against Surtain and Madison at their best.... not an older Madison and Daniels/Howard...
     
  30. DolfanISS

    DolfanISS Perennial All-Pro Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 2002
    Messages:
    11,730
    Likes Received:
    492
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I'd say the biggest changes will be no spy for Holcomb as we may have had one for Losman and i'd expect our Safties to be a litttle more wary of the deep pass where as if losman was playing i'd having them thinking Willis, Willis Willis, until JP showed there was something to worry about.
     
  31. tastes like chi

    tastes like chi cken

    Joined:
    Feb 2004
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think the differance between the two QBs are that one has shown so far that he can only beat you with his legs and the other though not great can beat you with his arm. Our secondary play has been our weakness so what do we do? blitz heavy or drop 7-8 guys into coverage. The GREAT thing about Saban is he will do both and ADJUST to what is working DURING the game. That is what I am most excited about this season. The in-game adjustments.
     
  32. Wallace758

    Wallace758 Just one superbowl win just one

    Joined:
    Sep 2004
    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    holcomb aint bad but he wont be throwin for 400 yards..hes decent... i think he threw for like 350 yards last year i dont know but he might have
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    48,987
    Likes Received:
    557
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well I couldn't disagree more because defenses are not called the same way offenses are called. An offense may have the first half-dozen to a dozen plays scripted prior to the game but after that the offensive coordinator calls in a play each time, and the play-calling of the OC makes a big difference. Defenses are not called exactly like that, there are packages that are in the game plan and there is less control during a half or series to just change things mid-stream. On defense, a coach goes with a game plan until it looks like it needs adjusting, then he adjusts it.

    So where you are saying that the defensive game plan will start with a four man rush and adjust to blitzes if we're not getting the pressure we need, I am saying our defensive game plan will start with lots of blitzes until A) either Losman comes in for Holcomb, or B) Holcomb does a Peyton Manning impression and whips the heck out of our blitz package with hot reads, line adjustments, and quick strikes.

    Option A is pretty likely to happen at some point in my opinion, Option B is not likely.
     
  34. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Manning to Tyree = Best SB Play EVER!!!!

    Joined:
    Jun 2002
    Messages:
    12,439
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You can have blitz packages and not use it. If you can get enough pressure on the QB without blitzing most defenses then use blitzes sparingly. A blitzes job is to disrupt the offense and put pressure on the quarterback, if you can do that with your front four then you are just wasting big play potential of a linebacker. Unless you have a basic Miami of old defensive plan you do make different play calls by what works and what doesn't work on defense. It is like a game of chess(If I knew chess I would make a good metaphor) or magic cards, why attack with the Sliver Queen when your little slivers are doing enough damage. Hard to make analogies with a sport that is so complicated like football.

    I don't doubt Miami will blitz a lot at first no matter who the quarterback is. One thing people are putting to much on is the fact that Loseman is an athletic quarterback. However he is not good at passing on the run. Since Miami is not longer a man always defense his runs are not going to go for 8 to 20 yards consistantly. Also since he is still young and doesn't get the NFL yet his running isn't going to create some opening in the zone that just burns the defense. So far all I have seen is Loseman's atheletic is that a 8 yard loss becomes a 3 yard loss and a 3 yard loss becomes a 2 yard gain. He might break one or two, but it wouldn't be too hurtful.
     
  35. Finaddict

    Finaddict Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2005
    Messages:
    360
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yeah I would agree that they are going to blitz alot this game. IMO Losman is more mobile or faster then Holcomb so now the blitzing will be easier because you know where he is going to be.
     
  36. MDFINFAN

    MDFINFAN Reach for the Stars Super Donator Donator

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    21,740
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I do think the different in QB's affect the amount of blitzing. Look at Buf themselves, they blitzed the hell out of Vicks and Aaron and looked what happened, the QB's escaped and cause havoc. With scrambling QB's you need to control the LOS more, keep them bottle up. With immobile QB's you rush them and cause them to made quicker decisions, i.e, Delhomle. That last blitz was all we needed to win the game. QB's who stay in the pocket and have time can kill you with their arm. If you make them throw, generally it's a shorter pass and you can tackle in front of you. A Qb who has time, can allow a long pass to develope and kill you deep, if they're accurate. I think CK is right in this instance. With Kelly, we will throw everything at him, scheme wise and blitz package wise to keep him confused.
     
  37. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Manning to Tyree = Best SB Play EVER!!!!

    Joined:
    Jun 2002
    Messages:
    12,439
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Loseman is not Vick and Aaron can hurt you throwing on the run.
     
  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 2002
    Messages:
    48,987
    Likes Received:
    557
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What I am saying is logistically, if a defensive game plan calls for blitzing, and this one WILL call for lots of it, there literally is not enough room for the playcaller to just shift gears in-stream. They can make adjustments, but making in-game serious adjustments is not the way to keep all eleven guys on the same page on the field. The best opportunity to make serious adjustments is halftime, which is why the 3rd quarter is called the "coach's quarter"

    Think of it like Madden or something. If the play isn't in the playbook, it can't be called. If you only have so many non-blitz packages in the playbook, then running them over and over again will allow the offense to figure you out.

    You make the assumption that defenses test the waters to see if they will get pressure with the front four BEFORE they go ahead with their blitz programme. They don't. They begin their programme, whichever they have decided, and if it does not work, they adjust it. So the Dolphins will start out blitzing hot and heavy, and if the blitzes are effective, they will keep doing it. If they blitzes start getting picked up and they get burnt, they will adjust and pull back some of the blitzing. But they will START by blitzing, not start by rushing four men and seeing how that works, because by the time you get to your actual game plan and find out rushing four doesn't work, the score could already be 7-0.
     

Share This Page