The Great Mistake of signing Hartline: A Waste of #2 WR Money + Foolish Strategy

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by LDaniel7, Mar 7, 2013.

  1. LDaniel7

    LDaniel7 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    With the numbers 6 and 6.5 million per year being thrown around for resigning Hartline, I just have to post regarding the limitation that will bring Miami's offense.

    For sake of argument, let's say Miami signs Wallace [Note: the argument gets even more powerful if Miami doesn't sign Wallace, more on that later]. Anyway, say Miami signs Wallace, a WR that MUST be double-covered in some fashion, if the opposing team hopes to hold the Phins in check. However, that weapon is nullified to extreme degree IF the number 2 WR on the other side of the field can EASILY be single-covered and poses no threat to gash the D down the field. Which, of course, is exactly what Hartline is: He'll be paid excellent NUMBER 2WR money, without the ability to be a number 2 that can make opposing teams pay for single coverage.

    Not only that, whenever you pay an extremely mediocre WR that much money, you rob yourself of money that could go toward greater talent -- say Wallace at WR or Cook at TE.

    Do the numbers:

    Which tandem would you rather have? Which would put the most pressure on opposing teams? Wallace + Hartline for 19 million per, together. Or, Wallace + Cook for 21 million per, together?

    Laugh. It ain't even close. Hartline with his slow-foot, non-physical, non-separation, non-leaping, non-redzone, poor catch-radius ability just ain't maximizing anything for the O. It's a waste of money AND a waste of a number 2 skill position that DEMANDS speed and talent, leaping ability and physical play and great catch radius, if not great speed. Hartline has NONE of those things.

    And one thing is certain: If Hartline gets signed for anywhere near 6 mill w. guaranteed money involved, you might as well fold up that money and smoke it, if a number 2 playmaker is your goal. The Fins will have necessarily COMMITTED themselves to mediocrity at that position -- AND wasted money that could have gone for Cook, etc. -- OR, passed on potential gamebreaking WRs in the draft and skill/potential in lower rounds because they already "filled" that position.

    WRONG. Waste of money and a number 2 roster space.

    Please send Hartline and his 6 million dollar request on his way. Instead, sign Wallace and Cook and start from there, in the draft...

    Sincerely,

    LD
     
  2. AFCMiamiEast

    AFCMiamiEast A True Fan

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    Okay, so you create this post about how Hartline needs to be sent away, yet you don't discuss any replacements for him? Matthews? Bess in the slot as a #2? Reach at 12? Or expect a 2nd/3rd round rookie to immediately go beast mode week 1? Smh. Supposedly you know more than ESPN analysts who have the guy as a top 5 free agent receiver this year. I am against signing him $6m +, but would ink him for around $5m.
     
  3. bigchub22

    bigchub22 Starter

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    OH reeeeeally I will take a 1,000 yard reciever as my number #2 and he did that as our best WR last year. Also, I live in TN and see a lot of Titans games and you guys in love with Cook are in for a rude awakening. Does he suck? nope... but is he all that? no greatly under performs
     
  4. LDaniel7

    LDaniel7 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    You replace Hartline with Wallace, and you go from there. You DON'T overpay for mediocre number 2 money just to have a roster space filled!

    It's pretty simple really.

    Draft is full of potentially good to great number 2 WRs. Draft two.

    LD

    Note: AFCMiamiEast, this was in reply to your post. Forgot to press the reply.
     
  5. TPD1479

    TPD1479 Seasoned Veteran

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    Love people who know nothing about football
     
  6. AFCMiamiEast

    AFCMiamiEast A True Fan

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    I'm sorry man but your reply is just a fail all around. So you say Wallace would replace Hartline, but can't even say a #2 replacement by name? There is no meat to your argument man, let's hope Ireland picks on whats-his-face in round 2/3 who somehow will put up better numbers than 1,000 yards and 4 TDs his rookie season. It's a lock, right?
     
  7. LDaniel7

    LDaniel7 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I'm not "in love" with Cook. I was only comparing what Cook would bring at TE compared to Hartline at number 2 WR.

    Personally, I'd be just as happy with Kelce at TE. Or Bennett in FA. All these guys are HUGE, HUGE upgrades over what we currently have. Fasano? Are you kidding me?? He puts as much pressure on a D as Hartline does: Zero.

    I'm saying that your number one and number two WRs have to be able to create on their own, beating man coverage straight up and owning the redzone. Hartline isn't there. Therefore he doesn't deserve anywhere near 6 mill + guaranteed money.

    LD
     
  8. AFCMiamiEast

    AFCMiamiEast A True Fan

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    But "whats-his-face" in round 3 is a lock to do better? Mmkay.
     
  9. kvado16

    kvado16 A True Fan

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    Lets just crown you GM then! You seem to have it all figured it out huh?
     
  10. LDaniel7

    LDaniel7 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Replacing Hartline will not be hard at all. How many draft picks has Miami spent in rounds one thru three on WRs the last how many years? And how many UDFA have they brought in? Seriously??

    If they had even dared to drafted WRs in the top rounds the last few years, Hartline wouldn't be considered a number two on this team.

    Personally, I'm sick of watching a supposed number one or number two WR have to make double and triple moves to even get one yard of separation -- that or run back toward the LOS in order to get separation!!

    Man, do me a favor. Look at how many times 1. Hartline has to run back to the LOS to make a catch! or, 2. Has to run parallel to LOS to make a catch. or, 3. Makes a catch where a decent WR would take it to the endzone, and he gets caught instead. or, 4. Makes a catch where there are YAC waiting to happen, but no! nothing much at all. Or, 5. Cannot outjump, outphysical or separate in the redzone. Man! If you made a list of those things just from this year alone, it would be a long list.

    The only TD hartline scored was on blown coverage. Period. He didn't create ANYTHING else, simply because he doesn't have the talent to do so. he's not a number 1 or 2 WR. Period.

    Anyone drafted in the first three rounds this year by Miami. Anyone. Will. Be. Better -- 90 percent chance, I'd put the odds at.

    LD

    ---------- Post added at 07:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 PM ----------

    Well, I'd fix the team in one year or die trying! I'd hire CK for the draft and FA review, and boom! Suddenly Miami is dominating the AFC East as in days of yore, and playoffs are something to be expected. Like NE.

    LD
     
  11. PhinSoldia

    PhinSoldia Miami Dolphin Columnist in the Making

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    Mannnnnnn just off the 35 page thread on the hartline issue, im not gonna rehash that the 6.5 made me angrier that I have been in a while, I have argued it down, but whats done is done,

    Ireland did a terrible job with this one
     
  12. LDaniel7

    LDaniel7 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Ahem.

    The reason I'm not happy with mediocre players is that I have seen and expect better. On the field, and coaching.

    LD
     
  13. insomnia411

    insomnia411 The world is yours

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    I don't disagree. I've said all long that we should let Hartline walk, sign Wallace and find a replacement for Hartline in the draft. I would love to see a receiving corps of Wallace/Keenan Allen/Bess/Swope/Matthews.
     
  14. PhinSoldia

    PhinSoldia Miami Dolphin Columnist in the Making

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    1000 yards by default really doesnt count man, He was the BEST receiver on our team and that says something about how desperate we are at wr, not at how good he is as a player...being the ony option makes people look pretty darn solid

    but agin just remember that 50 percent of his production came from 3 games, and he had 1000 yards...he was SHUT DOWN 15 games
     
  15. LDaniel7

    LDaniel7 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    The. Truth.

    Football people -- watch the film on this guy and tell me he's a number two on a good team? Or tell me he's not more of a backup 2 -- ie. a number 4? -- not even a slot WR?

    LD
     
  16. VA_Finfan

    VA_Finfan A True Fan

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    0/10 would not read again.
     
  17. finfan54

    finfan54 A True Fan Donator

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    im really surprised about the holdup on the deal. whats up?
     
  18. JTech194

    JTech194 Starter

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    It's obvious the OP knows nothing about football. When evaluating individual play you have to look at the individual player and what they did or didn't do. It takes other teammates to do their jobs correctly for WR to score TD. True Hartline only had 1 TD but how many times did he get 2-3 steps behind the defense only to be over or under thrown? I'd say at least 4, not his fault if the QB didn't put the ball where it needed to be. So actually he had 74 catches 1000 yards and 5TD ( based on what HE actually did) so the question is are those #2 numbers and worth 6mil???? I'd say yes!
     
  19. Xbrett82us

    Xbrett82us Starter

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    Disagree completely. Hartline is being paid not only because he is absurdly clutch, but because he has a year of chemistry with Tannehill under his belt already. You drop Hartline and bring in a new receiver for what 1 mil less a year, and there are no guarantees as to how they will mesh with Tannehill. The Tannehill to Hartline connection has been proven to work, why stop a good thing?
     
  20. dolfin530

    dolfin530 Student of the Game

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    When Hartline was single covered he played well. It is not a mistake to resign Hartline even at 6 million.
     
  21. FearTheBeard

    FearTheBeard FearTheBurke

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    I like what Hartline does and his rapport with Tanny is a hard thing to duplicate with a new guy. Now that I've started entertaining the idea of drafting a Keenan Allen in the first I've changed my stance. I'd rather pay Jennings an additional 2-3 mil to be paired with a 1st round rookie WR. That way you save the money that would go to 2 wideouts (Hartline @ 6 + Wallace/Jennings @ 12/8), and in turn can spend 8 on a solid proven receiver like Jennings and just an additional 1.5 on your first rounder that has an elite ceiling at a cheap price. In that situation you can not only bring on Jennings and Keenan Allen (quickly falling in love with the kid) for around 10 mil combined, you can further add an additional big play guy, like a Cook (@6-7 mil). There's 17 mil to an established more than solid veteran in Jennings (or bump it up to 21 mil if you're a Wallace guy), a rookie contract for Allen and a seam threat in Cook. And just like that you have plenty of cap room to fix your other holes and have 3 big play receivers paired with one of the better slot guys in the league in Bess. Throw in what Lamar Miller brings to the table out of the backfield and boom, you've got weapons on offense and still a good chunk of change burning a hole in your pocket. Just my 2 cents (no pun intended....).
     
  22. Gsmack_42

    Gsmack_42 Well-Known Member

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    The other 9 gm's in you're fantasy football league don't count as football people.
     
  23. PhinSoldia

    PhinSoldia Miami Dolphin Columnist in the Making

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    ba-zing!!!!!!!
     
  24. maralieus

    maralieus Lets get those balls deep!!

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    I gotta say the hartline bashing is getting old. He was one of our best players last year yet you people bash him. You have to pay some players that you groom. IMO Hartline was great last year. I know what youre response will be already. "But only 1td". True but I dont blame as much for that, tanny overthrew a few, albeit probably cuz of hartlines speed, but hartline isnt a deep ball guy, he was just the only guy that could fool the cbs and safety. As for his YAC, that will greatly improve when we can get the damn safeties away from him. Id fall too if i knew there was always gonna be a guy waiting to drill me. Wallace and a fast te will will greatly improve hartline. Not to mention the great chemistry with tannehill, his work ethic and dedication, his leadership and intelligence. He is worth the 6.5-7 mill. So get over it.
     
  25. rent this space

    rent this space Starter Finheaven VIP

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    didn't Hartline get 1000 yards going against the best defenders often times double-covered? yeah, pretty sure he can handle single coverage by the opponent's #2 DB
     
  26. NCFINFAN13

    NCFINFAN13 The Phinsuckery Continues Donator

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    Man the kid came in late due to illness. Did everything asked of him. Played above his skill level ... and people are upset if he benefits an extra 500,000 to 1,000,000 in a free agent market that likely will go bonkers. I don't get it.
     
  27. AFCMiamiEast

    AFCMiamiEast A True Fan

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    I have played starting quarterback for 4 years and it's not Hartline's fault because he couldn't get into a 3rd gear on an overthrow from Tannehill. An overthrow is an overthrow, simple as that. It's the quarterback's fault.
     
  28. miamiron

    miamiron A True Fan

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    Everyone talks about Hartline having only 1 td last season and are quick to make excuses blaming
    everyone but Hartline and his inability to get into the end zone. The same people need to get another excuse for
    Hartlines 1 td in the previous 26 games before this past season...Now your talking 2 tds in 42 games

    Just take a look at the points the Dolphins have scored in the past 42 games
    2012...288 pts
    2011...329 points
    2010...186 points....last 10 games

    That's 803 points the Miami Dolphins have scored in the past 42 games
    Hartlines contribution over the same 42 games has been scoring 12 points

    12 points out of the last 803 scored

    He is responsible for .014% of our total point output

    I cant for the life of me figure out how many of you would even entertain for 1 second paying this guy $6-$7 million a year
     
  29. PlexGod

    PlexGod Starter

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    I agree with you it take more then one person to score a TD but it works both ways... There were just as many plays if not more were Hartline had a chance to break a shoe string/ ankle tap tackle and score a TD and he didnt. He has shown over the past 4 years he has terrible terrible YAC ability. The guy simply can not stay on his feet or break a tackle or shake someone in order to score a TD.... So yeah our ROOKIE QB missed a few throws but our Veteran WR also has his share of poor plays that didnt help us to score. At the end of the day 1 TD a year for a #1 WR is really bad and not worth 6+ mil a year. I agree with OP when he said there are alot of 2nd and 3rd round WRs this years draft that can become good players in this league and would probably give us the same production Hartline can as a #2. 550-700 yards ad 2-3 TDs can be done by a decnt rookie wr as a starting #2. Guys like Woods, Hunter, Bailey, Hopkins, Patton and maybe even Swope i think can do it for us. With Wallace here Hartline would do what he did when Marshall was here. 600- 700 yards a 1-2 TDs.
     
  30. MDFINFAN

    MDFINFAN Reach for the Stars Super Donator Donator

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    Let's look at Hartline over the years with a speed threat (Ginn) and then marshall as his no. 2, then compare that to someone who's been the #2 to Wallace..Jerricho Cotchery Stats--2 years in pittsburg..2 TDs, high of 237 yards, Antonio Brown Stats : 3 years 7TD's, high of 1000 yards. (2nd year),
    Emmanuel Sanders Stats: 3 years, 5TD's, high of 626 yards this last year and they played with Big Ben as QB..Hartline is pretty much equal with them. When you look at Hartline with a speeder as the other receiver he avg 16.3 yards a catch..even by himself last year he still avg. 14 yds. So he'll do just as good as any other #2 with Wallace in fold.

    Receiving Stats
    SEASON TEAM GP REC TGTS YDS AVG LNG TD FD FUM LST
    2009------ MIA 16-- 31-- 56-- 506- 16.3- 67-- 3- 26- 0-- 0
    2010------ MIA 12-- 43-- 73-- 615- 14.3- 54-- 1- 27- 1-- 1
    2011------ MIA 16-- 35-- 67-- 549- 15.7- 41-- 1- 30- 0-- 0
    2012------ MIA 16-- 74-- 128- 1,083 14.6 80- 1-- 48- 1- 1
    Career--------- 60- 183-- 324- 2,753 15.0 80- 6- 131 2- 2
     
  31. PlexGod

    PlexGod Starter

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    Really?!?!?!? cuz he sure as hell couldnt do it with Marshall here as a number #2 WR.
     
  32. Playmaker76

    Playmaker76 Well-Known Member

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    I can't either. Our fanbase is in love with this guy. I don't understand the infatuation. He only had 3 good games last year out of 16. He struggles when he is pressed at the line of scrimmage and he is a non threat to win one on one battles in the red zone. He is the definition of mediocre. He's not a bad player but he's not worth more than $3 million per year. Plain and simple. I'll name some Wrs in the draft that are better than him. Allen, Patterson, Wheaton, Woods, Patton, T. Williams, Hunter, Austin, Bailey. They would also cost the Dolphins $6 million less per year than Hartline.
     
  33. PlexGod

    PlexGod Starter

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    U know what i see when i read those stats?? They all scored more TDs then Hartline has in 3 years!!!! All of them. The problem is not that Hartline cant catch its that he doesnt score points... Those guys can get in the endzone alot more then he can... Hell Sanders was the #3 guy and did what hartline did as a #2 with marshall here. Sorry but Hartline is not a good #2 WR and def not worth 6+ mil.
     
  34. MDFINFAN

    MDFINFAN Reach for the Stars Super Donator Donator

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    I've seen Hartline get behind the D a number of times over the years and our QB's missed him..he would have way more TD's than this if he was hit on those open times..if you guys watched you would know he was over or under thrown a lot of the times, I
    remember the first pats game this year alone, if he's hit on that bomb, we win.
     
  35. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero Donator

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    Actually, 5 to 6 million is market rate for a solid #2 and Hartline is a solid number 2. So if that is market price for him, Miami actually IS NOT overpaying. Its all economics. Some people understand it, some people dont.
     
  36. rent this space

    rent this space Starter Finheaven VIP

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    I didn't say he would get 1000 yards as a #2. I said he wouldn't be easily shut down by single coverage from their #2, like the OP claims

    also, Marshall didn't exactly stretch the field...
     
  37. Travis34

    Travis34 chea Finheaven VIP Donator

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    LD, you look silly by now lol.

    Hartline faced (usually) the other team's best corner last year and was probably doubled once in awhile. And he still got yards and moved the chains for us. So why would he do less damage against inferior talent? That's where I'm confused by your logic. I mean if you want to argue that he gets no YAC or TDs, fine, but this is just asinine lol

    I believe Hartline + Wallace would benefit from each other. Hartline is a great route runner to compliment Wallace's pure speed and attention he'll take away. We saw how he and Tannehill loved the comeback/curl last year lol. Throw in Bess, Matthews and some rookies and the offense isn't so bad.
     
  38. Playmaker76

    Playmaker76 Well-Known Member

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    Had 3 good games out of 16 last year as the team's #1 WR. How does that mean he is a solid #2? He's a 3 in my opinion. In today's NFL, 1's and 2's are WR's that can win most of their matchups. Hartline would be a 3 on most teams. Look around the league. Most teams' 1 and 2's are better than Hartline. I think people that say Hartline is a solid #2 are outdated and stuck in the old days, much like Parcells.
     
  39. Playmaker76

    Playmaker76 Well-Known Member

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    3 good games out of 16. 3 good games out of 16. 3 good games out of 16. 3 good games out of 16......maybe if I type it enough times people will read that FACT.
     
  40. Travis34

    Travis34 chea Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Great point. Give him a full training camp with Hartline and let's see if they start to connect.

    As far as for when we had him and Marshall? Well, that was a different coaching staff, they forcefed Marshall pretty sure, and most of all it wasn't Tannehill throwing the ball back then either.
     
  41. MDFINFAN

    MDFINFAN Reach for the Stars Super Donator Donator

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    #3 receivers generally don't get 1000 yards period. Hartline's not the fastest, but he's sneaky fast, he shouldn't have gotten as many yards as he did last year, but he did, and that's coming in not on the best of legs. remember.. I'm in love more with Hartline's hands, they're like Bess, pretty reliable and that moves the chains..and that's what a good #2 should do, and I trust Hartline to do that. And btw, let a db sleep on Hartline, watch what happens.
     
  42. phintim

    phintim Seasoned Veteran

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    First lets see what happens he may never sign and we do no know what the figures are until after the nasty deed is done. So far I see one guy we have brought back Starks that everyone basically agrees on and the rest has been a lot of second guessing over nothing. Lots of folks must not have much of a life.
     
  43. Playmaker76

    Playmaker76 Well-Known Member

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    He was the team's primary WR. How in the world is he not going to get 1000 yards in today's pass happy league? The most concerning thing is he was shut down during the second half of the season because teams started to press him at the line and he couldn't get separation. Look at the tape. Just look at it. The difference between Hartline and real 1's and 2's is that 1. he can't get off the line of scrimmaged when pressed and 2. he doesn't win contested catch battles. How can anyone argue this? This is the reason he doesn't score TD's more than anything else. This is the reason why he was shut down the second half of the year. This is the reason he should NOT get #2 WR money. Disagree and delude yourselves all you like but facts are facts, and the facts I stated are indisputable.
     
  44. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero Donator

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    Number 2 with no number 1 simply stated. Also #3's do not receive for 1,000 yards even if they get every pass thrown to them so that is a moot point on your part.

    In all honesty, you are the one who needs ot look around the league . What #2's receive for 1,000 yards? Tell me how many #1's receive for 1,000 yards.. Boldin-not 1,000 yards, Flloyd-not 1,000 yards, Johnson -less yards than Hartline, Maclin-not 1,000 yards, Bowe, not 1,000 yards, Fitzgerald, not 1,000 yards, Brown-not 1,000 yards.. Shall I continue.. These are all number 1 WR's who didn't receive for 1,000 yards... See the point... Hartline is a #2, forced into the challenge of a #1 role, and hung with the the leagues elite in terms of yardage. Would have liked to see more TD's however to say he is not a solid #2 and is only a #3 shows how little you really know about the position and what a #1, #2 and #3 receiver is.

    Oh.. Do I also need to mention he did this with not one minute of mini camps, training camps or preseason, with a brand new playbook, coaching staff, playcallers, and QB, with the defenses best CB lined up against him.. I guess that accounts for nothing.. :chuckle:

    I think 5 million is a fair price for him, but if we have to spend only another million, then so be it. If he were asking for 7, thats a different story now.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 7, 2013
  45. Playmaker76

    Playmaker76 Well-Known Member

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    You have to analyze the quality of the 1000 yards. Do you think he could sustain that if he was the teams' #1 again this year? Very doubtful. He had a once in a lifetime season because of 3 huge games where teams played very soft coverage which played into his biggest strength. What you need to take a look at is the second half of the season. Teams adjusted and he couldn't handle press coverage. He wasn't even double teamed because the safeties were in the box shutting down the run. Just watch the tape. That's all I'm asking. WATCH THE TAPE.
     
  46. Tureo

    Tureo Seasoned Veteran

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    Can we trade Hartline for any of those guys.
     
  47. MDFINFAN

    MDFINFAN Reach for the Stars Super Donator Donator

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    I've seen teams #1 receivers not get a 1000 yards before, Hartline is only the 8th miami dolphin receiver to do so remember. Miami has been in the league a lot longer than 8 years.. According to how bad you say Hartline is, he shouldn't have even gotten 700 yards. Press coverage is the best to stop the timing of plays, and it's effective, I agree Hartline has to get better in that area, and I think he will, but he won't see as much press coverage if we get a Wallace..no one to cover the corner if he slips on Hartline, coverage will roll to Wallace. When it comes to TD's what you wrote plus the many misses by QB's when he did get open is the reason for lack of TD's, but you must admit he did get behind the D a number of times..again remember the pat's first game. I think Hartline was hurt the 2nd half of the season, I think that leg started bothering him again, I could see him limp a lot the second half.
     
  48. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero Donator

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    You completely missed the point. Point is, he is not a number one, but performed better than most other teams number one and wants number 2 money. #2 money is 6 million a year so we are not overpaying as he is a solid number 2
     
  49. DolfanDuBbZ~

    DolfanDuBbZ~ Avoid the 'Noid

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    I can see both sides of the debate. As someone who thinks Fasano needs to move on for a more dynamic player, I can see the short comings being expressed about a 1000 yard rec. :ponder:
     
  50. Playmaker76

    Playmaker76 Well-Known Member

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    What you guys fail to understand is that Hartline doesn't have the natural skill set to beat press coverage. He's been in the league for several years now. Either you have that natural skill set or you don't. That's why I don't value him as a #2. He can get behind the D on occasion if he is not pressed at the line but the throw has to be perfect because he can't get elite separation and doesn't have the extra gear to track the ball and he doesn't have a natural feel for winning contested passes. These are all natural skill sets that can't be taught. Like I said either you have it or you don't. He doesn't. Plain and simple. The second half of the season is full proof. I have yet to read a counter argument that says he can beat press coverage. Until I do with factual evidence supporting your argument I will stand by what I say. And lets not make up injuries as an excuse. That is a cop out and complete BS.
     

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