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The Great Quarterback Debate

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Now that the super bowl is in the books talk radio is anointing Tom Brady as the best quarterback of all-time. He very well may be, but it begs the question. How much does winning the super bowl count for in grading a quarterback? I think it should count for something obviously, but not everything either.

I look at the careers of Steve Young and Jim Plunkett. Both were beat up playing for bad teams early in their careers, but ended up having great success with San Francisco and Oakland respectively. The difference? Both those teams were loaded with talent. Young went from being talked about as a draft bust to putting up some of the best numbers we had every seen at the position. When he retired, Young had the highest career passing rating in a system that didn't even account for his running ability and what that meant to the team. There are still 49ers fans who insist Young and not Joe Montana was the best quarterback ever.

Where would Tom Brady be if he was drafted by Cleveland instead of New England? What if Dan Marino had played for San Francisco instead of Miami, in a time when the Dolphins didn't have a lot of talent around him? Would Archie Manning have won four super bowls if he played for Pittsburgh rather than New Orleans in the 1970's? That's what makes the quarterback debate tough. It's the ultimate team game.

At the same time, you've got to give credit to quarterbacks like Brady and Terry Bradshaw who rose to the occasion in the biggest games. Bradshaw had to come up big in those battles with Dallas, or Pittsburgh might be 2-2 in those four contests.

If you look at attributes and grade a quarterback that way, it seems to make more sense to me. My top attributes for the quarterback position would be as follows (in no order):

Decision Making
Toughness/Durability
Accuracy/Ball Placement
Clutch
Deep Ball
Athletic Ability/Make Plays when things break down

There are more things you could grade, but I just wanted to keep it simple. If you look at those attributes Tom Brady is elite in almost every category. His ball placement is among the best I've every seen and his decision making is top drawer. He would not grade high with his deep ball or athletic ability.

I'd argue that Aaron Rogers and, going way back, Roger Staubach are two quarterbacks who were top-notch in all those categories. Does that mean they should rank higher than Brady? Maybe, but not necessarily.

Bret Favre would be lower for me based on decision making. Joe Montana would be dinged for durability as would Young. Dan Marino had one of the best deep throws/touch I've ever seen, but while he could move in the pocket he wasn't making a ton of plays when things broke down. His decision making wasn't at the top of the list either, although that was partly due to the nature of having to make big plays and taking chances. That's the nature of playing on some bad teams.

John Elway, later in his career, would rank high. His decision making early on wasn't great IMO. Dan Fouts would be pretty similar to Dan Marino. Troy Aikman might be pretty high. Fran Tarkenton, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Peyton Manning?

Who do you think is the best quarterback of all-time?
 
Peyton Manning, Dan Marino and Aaron Rodgers; I prefer to look at the skills of the individual instead of the teams accomplishments.
 
It's hard to rank these QB's individually. I'd just say all that have been mentioned are elite. No question. Their skill sets differ too much.
 
Rings dont count for anything.
Trent Dilfer has a ring.
Brad Johnson has a ring.
A broken Peyton Manning along with the great Osweiler has a ring.
Rex Grossman a game away from a ring.
 
Honestly guys, you won't like it but:

Decision Making - Brady
Toughness/Durability - Brady
Accuracy/Ball Placement - Brady
Clutch -Brady
Deep Ball - not Brady
Athletic Ability/Make Plays when things break down - Not brady

I can't see how anyone beats Brady here. He's just accomplished too much in the form of winning an stats.
 
I guess as long as the pass is under 20 yards Brady is pretty accurate but beyond that compared to greats of the past he just flat out sucks. If we are talking just game managers like he is I would take Montana all day long.
 
Toughness? You cant tell me a QB playing today is even remotely close to being as tough as someone playing 20 years ago. A tough QB doesn't get rattled like he does when he is under pressure.
 
I'll stick with Joe Montana. I've seen everybody since the late '60s.

I don't think it's particularly complicated. Montana played in an era with brutally physical teams and great coaching staffs, particularly in his own conference. Naturally you're going to get beat up while playing the likes of those Bears and Giants teams. When he was healthy and the team was clicking, Montana really raised his game in the playoffs. His playoff yards per attempt numbers were 8.5, 8.1, 9.1 and 9.6 during the 4 seasons he won the Super Bowl. Those first two Super Bowl seasons he did throw some interceptions in the NFC playoffs against great teams but he never threw a pick in the Super Bowl.

Montana was a lethal downfield passer at Notre Dame. He was a famous player in college despite being a part time starter, and a 3rd round draft pick. Maybe the younger fans wouldn't realize that. Notre Dame had a far larger footprint on the national college football stage then than now. The Sunday highlight show every week with Lindsey Nelson and Paul Hornung was an hour long and it played everywhere in the country in a prominent time slot, just prior to the NFL pregame shows. Nelson and Hornung raved about Montana and always raised their enthusiasm when he entered the game. Montana didn't have a high completion percentage and threw plenty of picks, but when he entered the game something was going to happen. Otherwise it was a conservative offense under Dan Devine. Montana averaged 8.0 YPA in college.

When John Madden retired from broadcasting he was asked about the best players during his broadcasting career. Madden responded quickly, naming Montana on offense and Lawrence Taylor on defense.

Absolutely. The adjusters like to swerve things away from reality. That's basically what the offseason is used for these days. Not everyone is gullible enough to succumb.

Bradshaw and Brady were similar in one respect. They played on dominant regular season teams but for whatever reason that dominance didn't translate to the Super Bowl. Every Steeler victory during the '70s was in doubt in the 4th quarter, despite the great defense with all the Hall of Famers, just like all 7 of Brady's Super Bowls have been very tight. The margin in the Steelers/Rams game got out of hand late but anyone who watched that game knew how narrow it was. That game carried a double digit pointspread.

Marino will drop further and further down the line, in stats and legend. That is proper. I was not a fan.

Jim Plunkett and Steve Young were fantastic collegians. Especially Plunkett, who was already a legend at Stanford. There would be ABC doubleheaders all season with the second game featuring Plunkett and Stanford. That team had a handful of nice players including a clever receiver named Randy Vataha. Otherwise it didn't belong on a nationally televised game, and would not have been there minus Plunkett. You can't look at stats from that era and try to rationalize them under a modern scope without understanding the realities of the time frame. Plunkett was eligible to rebound with the Raiders -- or anyone else -- because he was a special, special talent who had demonstrated it at a young age. Same with Steve Young, who was not as famous in college as Plunkett but still obviously a great player who prompted that $40 million contract from the Los Angeles Express of the USFL. Those numbers were bizarre in that era. Keep in mind that Magic Johnson signed a $1 million per year personal services contract with Jerry Buss just a few seasons earlier. Buss knew that the math would change, quickly and sharply. Not many realized it. The contract was torn up one it became obvious, and the money unfair to Magic in his prime.

Steve Young was eligible to rebound, like Plunkett. The problem is when players who have never been at that peak level are forecast to get there. That's when the tape lies, and lies, and lies.
 
Name the great QB's that didn't have superior coaching and you'll find your answer.

Peyton Manning was the best overall QB in the modern era to ever play the game being that he was a coach/player and possessed superior knowledge of on both aspects of the game in that respect.
 
I'll stick with Joe Montana. I've seen everybody since the late '60s.

I don't think it's particularly complicated. Montana played in an era with brutally physical teams and great coaching staffs, particularly in his own conference. Naturally you're going to get beat up while playing the likes of those Bears and Giants teams. When he was healthy and the team was clicking, Montana really raised his game in the playoffs. His playoff yards per attempt numbers were 8.5, 8.1, 9.1 and 9.6 during the 4 seasons he won the Super Bowl. Those first two Super Bowl seasons he did throw some interceptions in the NFC playoffs against great teams but he never threw a pick in the Super Bowl.

Montana was a lethal downfield passer at Notre Dame. He was a famous player in college despite being a part time starter, and a 3rd round draft pick. Maybe the younger fans wouldn't realize that. Notre Dame had a far larger footprint on the national college football stage then than now. The Sunday highlight show every week with Lindsey Nelson and Paul Hornung was an hour long and it played everywhere in the country in a prominent time slot, just prior to the NFL pregame shows. Nelson and Hornung raved about Montana and always raised their enthusiasm when he entered the game. Montana didn't have a high completion percentage and threw plenty of picks, but when he entered the game something was going to happen. Otherwise it was a conservative offense under Dan Devine. Montana averaged 8.0 YPA in college.

When John Madden retired from broadcasting he was asked about the best players during his broadcasting career. Madden responded quickly, naming Montana on offense and Lawrence Taylor on defense.

Absolutely. The adjusters like to swerve things away from reality. That's basically what the offseason is used for these days. Not everyone is gullible enough to succumb.

Bradshaw and Brady were similar in one respect. They played on dominant regular season teams but for whatever reason that dominance didn't translate to the Super Bowl. Every Steeler victory during the '70s was in doubt in the 4th quarter, despite the great defense with all the Hall of Famers, just like all 7 of Brady's Super Bowls have been very tight. The margin in the Steelers/Rams game got out of hand late but anyone who watched that game knew how narrow it was. That game carried a double digit pointspread.

Marino will drop further and further down the line, in stats and legend. That is proper. I was not a fan.

Jim Plunkett and Steve Young were fantastic collegians. Especially Plunkett, who was already a legend at Stanford. There would be ABC doubleheaders all season with the second game featuring Plunkett and Stanford. That team had a handful of nice players including a clever receiver named Randy Vataha. Otherwise it didn't belong on a nationally televised game, and would not have been there minus Plunkett. You can't look at stats from that era and try to rationalize them under a modern scope without understanding the realities of the time frame. Plunkett was eligible to rebound with the Raiders -- or anyone else -- because he was a special, special talent who had demonstrated it at a young age. Same with Steve Young, who was not as famous in college as Plunkett but still obviously a great player who prompted that $40 million contract from the Los Angeles Express of the USFL. Those numbers were bizarre in that era. Keep in mind that Magic Johnson signed a $1 million per year personal services contract with Jerry Buss just a few seasons earlier. Buss knew that the math would change, quickly and sharply. Not many realized it. The contract was torn up one it became obvious, and the money unfair to Magic in his prime.

Steve Young was eligible to rebound, like Plunkett. The problem is when players who have never been at that peak level are forecast to get there. That's when the tape lies, and lies, and lies.

I'm tempted to put Rogers on top, based partly on his innate ability to make something out of nothing. Staubach was kind of like that as well.

No doubt, Montana was special. Living up here around 49ers fans you hear it a lot, but you on are target about that era. Tough football players, different rules. In many ways, it looks like a whole different game today. It used to be that young quarterbacks took 2-3 years to adjust to the NFL. Now, with the rule changes these college quarterbacks come in and succeed right off the bat quite a bit. I still can't believe how easy it is now for receivers to get open. Defense sometimes seems non-existent.

Loved Plunkett and his story. Wasn't a Raiders fan, but liked seeing him succeed.

Very difficult to rate players from different eras. IMO Staubach was the best of the 1970's. Montana was the best during his time. Not sure on the 1990's, but Aikman was a bit underrated. Today, it could be Rogers but most will probably say Brady.
 
I simply say this: If you put Marino in his prime in this era on these same Patriots' teams, how many titles would you expect him to have? If you put Brady on those same 80's and 90's Fins' teams with those rules, how many titles do you think he would have?
 
2001 - 2017 best in his era T om Brady is great but protected by rules....1979-1995 best in his era Joe Montana was great as well but was not protect by rule.
 
Name the great QB's that didn't have superior coaching and you'll find your answer.

Peyton Manning was the best overall QB in the modern era to ever play the game being that he was a coach/player and possessed superior knowledge of on both aspects of the game in that respect.

Peyton Manning definitely needs to be in the conversation.
 
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