The lawsuit will be against NFL not the Dolphins,hazing is a legal form of bullying.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Phindog, Nov 6, 2013.

  1. Phindog

    Phindog A True Fan

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    Martin has no clue what he has done in his rocking the NFL with this non-sense.

    Hazing is a legal form of bullying and the NFL allowed it to go on without any guidelines.This is a slippery slope but if there is a suit and the fact that Martin more than likely will never set foot on an NFL field again,will have no choice but to sue.

    What team in their right mind would even consider a locker room cancer like Martin? So if you're going to sue,they say go after the biggest phish, no pun intended,

    The NFL knows about the hazing and allows it to continue.They are at fault as much for not controlling or setting rules in place prior to this ever happening.

    The NFL avoiding suit may have to step in and come up with a financial settlement for Martin and re-evaluate their policies.
     
  2. Hayden Fox

    Hayden Fox Love Creating Turnovers Donator

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    If Martin takes this to court to prove a point and garner money, he is exactly what is wrong with this country.

    This is not what the court system is for.
     
  3. dolpns13

    dolpns13 Chest Rockwell is my hero Donator

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    The question is when does hazing become more than bullying? When does it cross the line? Id think it is when it is taken off the field and made personal like RI sending threatening voicemails.
     
  4. DzakkH13

    DzakkH13 Winning is a Habit Donator

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    It's not really an NFL issue because many teams DO NOT allow any hazing of any form. This will be a Dolphins only issue unless other players speak out against their current teams as well.

    And what Cogs did may be viewed as "hazing" to some, but when you use a racial slur towards someone and threatened to beat the family, you cross that line into harassment.
     
  5. Phindog

    Phindog A True Fan

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    Dozens of nfl players are coming out from other teams saying the money grab from rookies,the hazing / forcing a player to get hair cuts carry nfl pads etc.It is not an only miami Dolphins issue.

    It's an NFL issue.
     
  6. Spesh

    Spesh #freespesh

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    People in the organization not only looked the other way, they encouraged and directed the harassment.

    This is exactly what the court system is for.
     
  7. Kencoboy

    Kencoboy Starter

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    If and when there is a lawsuit the NFL will be named because they have the most money for the lawyers to go after...that simple. Ultimately it is an NFL issue according to the law because the Dolphins are a part of that organization and are supposed to follow the rules of the NFL. The NFL is supposed to police teams so that this nonsense does not happen. Of course, all you have to do is watch Hard Knocks and the hazing is right there in your face. I have always wondered why the NFL, MLB, NBA, etc. have different sets of rules applied to them unlike a normal business. This potential lawsuit could go a lot farther than just hazing and could wind up redefining how major sports organizations have to apply the laws of the land to their members just like everyone else IMO.
     
  8. skaarsgard

    skaarsgard Active Member

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    Hazing is a legal form of bullying? Wtf does that mean exactly?

    Hazing is definitely illegal in some states regardless of any ties to bullying... Some states have legislated it illegal if it leads to injury (physical or mental).

    A simple google search of "is hazing legal" will answer that question with hundreds of replies in one second.

    But we really haven't read of hazing leading to martin leaving the team. We've read countless stories on bullying and or racism. However, if we substitute the bully and or racist buzzwords with "harassment" and "discrimination" we then have a much clearer assessment of the infractions and paths leading forward.

    And that is going to very ugly for the dolphins and professional sports in America.
     
  9. Phindog

    Phindog A True Fan

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    So next we'll see lawsuits in military boot camp because the leaders were too rough on them....

    The NFL trenches is a mini hand to hand combat with guild lines and rules.It's not for marshmallows like Martin.
     
  10. DzakkH13

    DzakkH13 Winning is a Habit Donator

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    That's not what is under fire though. What is really under fire is how far Incognito pushed it. That's what will draw a lawsuit, not he paying for meals or carrying pads.
     
  11. Spesh

    Spesh #freespesh

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    Lawsuits have already occurred in the military. Military lost. Now, if a sergeant or what have you crosses the line into abuse, hes punished or dismissed. Yet, despite having supposed marshmallows in the ranks, we still have the deadliest military the world has ever known. Wonder why that is? Probably because they've figured out how to instill "toughness" without destroying someone.

    The NFL is an American company bound by American laws. The locker room is not the sovereign territory of some other country that just happened to invade certain spots of this country. Keep trying to blame the victim, but this is ridiculous. Every other team has no problem being tough without abusive. We screwed up. Why? Probably because we left a psychotic in charge of the process.
    Toughness is an internal thing, and Martin has shown more the Incognito ever has when he walked away.
     
  12. Phindog

    Phindog A True Fan

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    LMFAO......you couldnt be any more wrong

    The tougher thing was to stay,Martin is a P***Y that should have never joined the NFL....he should have gone into something with less contact,like maybe tennis.
     
  13. skaarsgard

    skaarsgard Active Member

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    I guess you aren't really one to argue with about the court of law....
     
  14. Spesh

    Spesh #freespesh

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    So he should have just sat around and been put through the ringer by a sadist. Toughness! Meekly keeping quiet about a problem while losing money and being threatened. Such toughness! Letting a bully walk all over you. Rawr, all this manhood toughness is making me hard!

    He risked a lot coming forward. His reputation, his financial well being, and his future. That requires fortitude. Of course you dont recognize that because courage of conviction doesnt require fists and hitting things.
     
  15. Phindog

    Phindog A True Fan

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    Never pretended to be:up:
     
  16. skaarsgard

    skaarsgard Active Member

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    Guess I was confused by the "COURTS" attachment to the header and the thread starting off with... "Hazing is a legal form of bullying"
     
  17. MadDog 88

    MadDog 88 TANNERECTION!!!! Donator

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    :lol:

    Touché
     
  18. Spesh

    Spesh #freespesh

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    Still worth discussing.

    Its relatively simple, did Martin go through anything that could be construed as such:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_work_environment

    If yes, we lose. Period. And im not sure how anyone can look at what hes gone through and objectively say "yeah, we are totally fine, thats doesnt appear to be the case at all". All ive heard is people spinning this into a blame the victim routine and making wild, ridiculous excuses about how the NFL is "different".

    And thats assuming Martin even takes this to court. I dont think he will...unless there is more information we dont know. The league is masterful at delaying cases or having them settled in their favor. The concussion settlement was for $765 million, which is supposed to cover everyone, including future players. Im not sure how anyone can think Martin stands a chance of a big payday by himself. Likely they would settle it for something like the veteran minimum($2 million). Martin could have made vastly more money just by keeping quiet and continuing his career.
     
  19. JTC111

    JTC111 Viva la resistance!!!

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    The civil courts exist to right wrongs. If Martin feels he was wronged, the courts are the place to seek justice. There are plenty of countries where that isn't the case; I doubt you'd want to live in any of them.
     
  20. skaarsgard

    skaarsgard Active Member

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    In reply to Spesh... I think we're on the same page here.

    Also, I posted a much more detailed outlook on my opinions of Martin's agenda and paths moving forward in the Incognito voice mail thread before that I'd be interested in your thoughts on.


    http://www.finheaven.com/showthread.php?346692-Looking-at-the-voicemails
     
  21. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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  22. Phindog

    Phindog A True Fan

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    I'm sorry it's so hard to look outside the box.

    If he was at wits end he should have had a sit down with the coach and the owner,he should have gone to Cogs and said enough is enough,and let some of the team mates know he had enough.
     
  23. Phindog

    Phindog A True Fan

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    I'm basing my info on common sense,the NFL knows about what rookies go through do they not?

    The player if he was smart and I'm guessing seeing his family is in the business would go after the big dog,the NFL.

    It's not that complicated..
     
  24. skaarsgard

    skaarsgard Active Member

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    That's what the player's/ team's / league's unwritten rules would suggest he have done. The written rules of the league or federal law ( Another google search task for you, whistleblower protection) would mandate a different response. It sounds like Martin followed the latter
     
  25. Phindog

    Phindog A True Fan

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    Martin went the I no longer want to play in the NFL route.The I still want a lot of money route and I now have enough evidence to get both.

    Armando Salguero ‏@ArmandoSalguero 23m
    Not for a while. He's in treatment and lawyered up. RT @karljlaw: when do you think we hear from Martin, the most important one in all this.
     
  26. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    It is complicated. You say that hazing is a "legal" form of bullying. According to who? The NFL's knowledge of something does not make it law.
     
  27. Phindog

    Phindog A True Fan

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    Does the NFL know about hazing???????
     
  28. skaarsgard

    skaarsgard Active Member

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    Or you can counter that argument with Martin went the abused and need of protection route. Whether that protection was needed for his mental state, financial (current and future) state or simple, fair employment, we've yet to hear.

    His handlers have guided him down the legal path of protecting himself first and foremost.

    We can all probably agree it was done knowing his future in a locker room was most likely forfeited in doing so.
     
  29. Fish-Head

    Fish-Head U made the pudding but forgot the proof.

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    I would GUARANTEE that there is some legal wordage in each team's charter about 'hazing' and or 'harassment'... From the NFL... That would hold them exempt (to an extent) from damages... Like colleges... Even when it is knowingly being practised...

    Also I would think it would be hard to prove that the NFL governs, monitors or could be expected to know exactly what goes on in each and every team locker room... You would have to prove that the League was negligent... Like if Martin went to them and they ignored him... Which it doesn't look like what happened.

    I think you would be hard pressed to drag the league into this and the easy target is the Phins as the 'employer'. But no question you are going to see a lot of new regulation by teams and owners to prevent this in the future... No matter what the outcome... There are going to be a lot of 'Jonathan Martin' rules put into place.
     
  30. Phindog

    Phindog A True Fan

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    Youd think that all this pure torture that Martin has been the beneficiary of,that these un-named sources would have said something or anything bad about Cogs but it's pretty much the opposite.

    The only negative about this entire case is the foul sewer mouth email that Martin saved.Martin would have been servred dealing with it right then calling a meeting with Philbin and Ross.
     
  31. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Obviously but, how does that make it legal? Hell, they know about the draft, which is also illegal. It only is proven to be when someone brings it before a court.
     
  32. phishxhead

    phishxhead Ring Of Honor

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    Because we spend more on our military than the rest of the world combined.
     
  33. Phindog

    Phindog A True Fan

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    Next you'll have a player who wants a money grab to claim torture when they get an orange hair cut.

    jordan.jpg
     
  34. skaarsgard

    skaarsgard Active Member

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  35. Spesh

    Spesh #freespesh

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    The coaches were the ones directing the harassment. Why would he feel if he went to them this would stop?

    This is really basic stuff.

    Love how people are blaming Martin for "what he should have done". How about Incognito just act like a professional? How about the coaches dont put the locker room headcase in charge of "toughing up" players? Again, just really really basic stuff.
     
  36. phinking

    phinking A True Fan

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    It is up to Jonathan Martin who he wants to sue. And my guess is that it will be specifically, the Miami Dolphins.
     
  37. TheMageGandalf

    TheMageGandalf A True Fan

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    I don't understand your comments.

    First, you go off about how Martin is a sissy and then you say this. I don't think from what you've said in this thread that it would make a difference in your mind because he still would've been blabbing about things.

    Say he did/does what you said and the Coaches/Players 'LOL' at him and don't do a damn thing so he is forced to go this route, then what? He's suddenly not 'weak' and becomes a great person in your eyes?

    The NFL is a gladiator like league? Great. On the field of play, if he storms out in a huff, then I get your point. Anywhere else, its up for debate.
     
  38. NY8123

    NY8123 Sophisticated Redneck Administrator Finheaven VIP

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    What ever happened to the days when you went outside and busted each others noses and then when back to what you were doing with a mutual respect for the other guy?
     
  39. retarmyfinfan

    retarmyfinfan Brave Rifles Donator

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    You are about as clueless as they come. Unless players from other teams claim the same thing, it is a Dolphins problem. Threatening your family is more than hazing. I think Icognito will be made an example of, regardless of his motives or reasoning. As long as Martin keeps to his story of how he says it happened Icognito is the culprit.
     
  40. Phindog

    Phindog A True Fan

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    In your opinion it was directing harassment,in football world it was the coaches wanting to harden the player.There are tons of players coming out that said it was done quite often to young players that were a little soft.Today on ESPN am ex raven player I forget who said he has done it a few times even as far back as college.


    The problem with this is there's no exact way to toughen a player up.Players usually do what they think would work for them and in Martins case,Cogs was probably the worse person to do it.

    ---------- Post added at 03:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:25 PM ----------

    Aw someone got their feelings hurt...boo hoo..

    It's just your opinion and with only 50 percent of the info out there no one knows mr clueless police.

    ---------- Post added at 03:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:26 PM ----------

    Ricky quote was one of the best,"some people dont belong in football."
     
  41. jc4005

    jc4005 Well-Known Member

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    "The coaches were the ones directing the harassment. Why would he feel if he went to them this would stop?"

    That's speculation and cannot be proven. Mike Pouncey denied it when asked about it. In the real world, if you went to work and the person in the cubicle sitting next to you starts making insulting and disparaging remarks- you would be expected to report this to your manager and/or HR department. The matter would be handled internally. Telling your boss everything is fine and then hiring a lawyer behind their back and filing a lawsuit are not the actions of a strong person in any world.
     
  42. Phindog

    Phindog A True Fan

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    If you guys are going to call it harassment then every team in the nfl is guilty in some shape or form,they didnt say torture Martin just toughen him up.
     
  43. butta247

    butta247 FinHeaven VIP

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    That is quite possibly the dumbest comment I've ever heard. Philbin and company did not direct RI to use racial slurs and threaten Martin. They ask him to toughen him up. You can't be emotionally soft and play in the NFL. You can't cry to momma when an opposing defensive tackle calls you a name or says he's gonna sh*t down your throat.

    Dude if you were picked on as a kid...sorry about that. Look at this situation objectively and not about your own past experiences
     
  44. Phindog

    Phindog A True Fan

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    Why couldn't of Martin asked for a trade,change of scenery?????


     
  45. WAKE oftheFlood

    WAKE oftheFlood Wake's A Monster

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    Yeah, it's not the fault of the coaches if someone takes things too far.
     
  46. jetsattack

    jetsattack Well-Known Member

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    thats because you have a bunch of pseudo tough guys saying ridiculous things behind a computer screen. never argue with an idiot....they try to drag you down to their level and then they beat you with experience
     
  47. jetsattack

    jetsattack Well-Known Member

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    whats dumb about it? if the coaches directed incognito to "toughen him up" then they are responsible of directing him to implement whatever measures he implemented to get the desired results. it will be pretty easy to argue that if they did in fact direct incognito to do this then they should have been overseeing it to make sure it was kept within legal parameters. if they failed to do that then they will be found guilty by negligence. the courts aren't going to accept this type of abuse because its the supposed culture of the nfl. if it's illegal abuse then there will be punishements levied on the dolphins and the nfl. just by reading what has been circulating i'd guess the courts will find in favor of martina dn the nfl will very quickly implement rules against this sort of thing happening in the future.
     
  48. Phindog

    Phindog A True Fan

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    which is why we wont argue with you...
     
  49. Phindog

    Phindog A True Fan

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    Sometimes dumb doesnt see dumb....
     
  50. WAKE oftheFlood

    WAKE oftheFlood Wake's A Monster

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    That would be too logical, and it would hurt his chances of cashing in on a fat law suit.
     

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