The Offensive Tackle Mythology Index

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Spesh, Apr 15, 2014.

  1. Spesh

    Spesh #freespesh

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    Purpose

    The purpose of this post is to give everyone a general idea of the importance of the tackle position by reviewing our recent history with said position, other franchises acquisitions at that position, and team’s roster building philosophies. As I understand the importance of objectivity is subjective, I will not be including more than a minimum amount of statistics. Some of the subjects I will be discussing will touch upon, but not necessarily be about, the rest of the offensive line. If any information is missing or incorrect it is not due to sinister motives. Any quotes should have the link provided; everything else should be my opinion.

    History

    As the Philbin and Ireland regimes overlapped, I felt starting from the 2008 offseason was an acceptable beginning point. Making it even more appropriate is the fact that our marquee signing of this offseason was from that draft class. Recognizing that we have uncertainty at the guard position as well as having a history of players switching positions along the line, I will be including guards on the list. It’s worth noting that the list will only contain players acquired or re-signed during this particular period of time and not those who were already on the roster and subsequently allowed to leave via free agency.

    -2008:
    Jake Long, 1[SUP]st[/SUP] overall pick.
    Shawn Murphy, 4[SUP]th[/SUP] round, 110[SUP]th[/SUP] overall pick.
    Justin Smiley, signed to a 5 year, $25 million contract with $9 million guaranteed.

    -2009:
    Vernon Carey, re-signed to a 6 year, $42 million contract with $15 million guaranteed.

    -2010:
    John Jerry, 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] round, 73[SUP]rd[/SUP] overall pick.
    Richie Incognito, 1 year deal. He was later re-signed for a 3 year, $12 million contract.

    -2011:
    Marc Colombo, signed a 1 year, $2 million contract. This was an unforgivable sin.

    -2012:
    Jonathan Martin, 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] round, 42[SUP]nd[/SUP] overall pick.

    -2013:
    Dallas Thomas, 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] round, 77[SUP]th[/SUP] overall pick.
    Tyson Clabo, signed a 1 year, $5 million contract.
    Bryant McKinnie, acquired in a mid-season trade for a 7[SUP]th[/SUP] round pick, originally had a 2 year $6.3 million contract but voided the final year. He apparently made, roughly, $2.5 million in 2013.

    As you can see we haven’t hesitated to acquire players to fill either tackle spot. Despite such an investment, and more considering the draft picks and money we spent on the center position, we still gave up a franchise record in sacks allowed.

    Modern Importance of the Left Tackle

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9...-path-proves-demise-left-tackle-espn-magazine

    I encourage all to read the entire article in the link. For the sake of size I was forced to cut out some interesting points and quotes. While the focus was on the left tackle position, it could easily cover any other individual spot on the line. The key is to find 5 solid starters and to use coaching to emphasize the strengths of the team while diluting the weaknesses. And, because it will come up, the article was not advocating spending 5 first round picks in order to get said solid starters.

    Credit goes to TedSlimmJr for linking that article in the past.

    2014 Free Agents

    While many lineman hit free agency, there were clearly 4 that stood above the rest when it came to the tackle position. Roger Saffold also hit free agency and while the Raiders considered him to be a tackle, he was ultimately re-signed by the Rams to be a guard.

    A disclaimer before we begin: I was unable to find a solid number for Branden Albert’s contract. While searching, I repeatedly found both $46 million and $47 million. I vaguely recall reports stating it was for $46.5 million. For this discussion, I will be referring to the deal as $46 million.

    -Brandon Albert. 29 years old, will turn 30 during the season. Signed a 5 year, $46 million contract with the Dolphins. Average yearly salary is roughly $9.2 million.

    -Eugene Monroe. 27 years old. Signed a 5 year, $37.5 million contract with the Ravens. Average yearly salary is $7.5 million.

    -Jared Veldheer. 26 years old, will turn 27 before the season begins. Signed a 5 year, $35 million contract with the Cardinals. Average yearly salary is $7 million.

    -Anthony Collins. 28 years old, will turn 29 during the season. Signed a 5 year, $30 million contract with the Buccaneers. Average yearly salary is $6 million.

    It’s worth noting that Jason Peters re-signed with the Eagles at the end of February with a $51.3 million contract. It could be argued that he set the market with that deal. That being said, its clear teams didn’t completely buy into that argument and agents had to fight for deals that were cheaper than the contract Peters received. It’s important to remember that most of the negotiations took place on the weekend before free agency officially began. Thus agents were able to leverage teams against one another while the franchises themselves were able to explore the other players without a ticking clock.

    Despite that, Albert’s deal is considerably more expensive than the rest. In fact, it’s closer to the deal Jake Long got last offseason than any of the others in this free agent class. At 28 years old he received a 4 year, $36 million contract from the Rams, averaging at around $9 million per season.

    Injuries

    Undoubtedly this forum will react vehemently to the mention of Jake Long. His injury history has been the overwhelming excuse given for his lack of extension. Coincidentally, Espn recently wrote up a mini-scouting report on Albert that covered ground similar to the discussions we’ve had about Long in recent history.

    http://espn.go.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/6631/dolphins-scouting-report-branden-albert

    A more complete list of Branden Albert’s history can be found here:

    http://www.kffl.com/player/18301/nfl/injury_history/branden-albert

    Comparatively, here’s the injury history for Jake Long, Eugene Monroe, and Jared Veldheer.

    http://www.kffl.com/player/16021/nfl/injury_history/jake-long

    http://www.kffl.com/player/20736/nfl/injury_history/eugene-monroe

    http://www.kffl.com/player/22507/nfl/injury_history/jared-veldheer

    I excluded Anthony Collins due to his background as a backup. For those that can’t or don’t feel like clicking on those links, it can be briefly summed up as: Jake Long consistently missed multiple games almost every year with season ending injuries, Branden Albert consistently missed multiple games almost every year with injuries that weren’t season ending but still detrimental to his play and aggravating to him until the season ended, Eugene Monroe missed a handful of games due to a shoulder and ankle injury in 2011, and Jared Veldheer was healthy for the majority of his career until tearing a triceps in training camp of this past season.

    In today’s NFL it’s extremely rare for a player to never be injured. Serious injuries that were a rarity and what used to be potentially career ending injuries such as ACL tears are now common place. The rate of injuries has been so alarming that the league has made safety a main focus. With all of that in mind, it should come as no surprise that big name free agents have a history with injuries. Freak injuries happen and it shouldn’t necessarily be held against the players.
    That said, reality must come into play and teams must take into account injuries that have the trademark of being chronic. Branden Albert’s back absolutely falls into that category. I believe Albert when he says it’s under control at the moment, but it’s probable that he will have issues in the future now that he is entering his 30’s.

    Draft

    While one of the main talking points concerning this particular draft is how deep the receiving class is, people should keep in mind that the offensive line class is considered strong as well. As is the case with every position, there are a few that stand above the rest, but a sentiment exists that you could potentially find a quality starter in the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] or 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] round. Though I have some reservations about this list, it should give everyone a good idea of the type of quality this draft class has to offer.

    http://nfl.si.com/2014/04/03/2014-nfl-draft-position-rankings-tackles/

    I've also seen this topic discussed numerous times in our very own draft forum. I encourage all to visit it and see if any questions you might have on specific prospects has been addressed by those who have put in quite a bit of time in on reviewing each player. I've been on this forum for 7 years and during that time I've found many of our own members to be consistently more accurate than those on the television or in a front office.

    Draft Philosophy

    As we approach May 8[SUP]th[/SUP] with apparently holes on the roster a divide has occurred on the forum. Some argue drafting for need while others insist on taking the most talented player. This is a common debate with all teams and one our current regime happened to address:

    http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sport...ch-joe-philbin-reveal-his-draft-strategy.html

    http://espn.go.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/5120/impressions-of-dolphins-gm-dennis-hickey

    Fallacies

    Many on this forum make up a few ill-conceived notions that become accepted as fact. I’ll be addressing a handful of them. Do note, I am not attempting to call out any individual posters and am just addressing pervading themes that exist from thread to thread. If you’ve made these arguments yourself do not take it personally, simply adjust your opinion as you see fit.

    -Albert contract isn’t “really” for $46 million.

    Every single team in the league creates language in the contract that is beneficial to the team while also acceptable to the player. Contrary to much of the praise heaped upon Dawn Aponte, Miami isn’t unique in how much we actually pay a player per season. Here’s two examples of this practice from this very offseason:

    http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/120318/breaking-down-jared-veldheers-contract

    Its common practice when discussing a player’s salary to refer to the max number the contract is worth. Why? Because that is how much he could potentially make. It’s up to his agent, the player himself, and the coaching staff to make sure he makes everything he possibly could.

    And common sense dictates that a player with a cheaper contract will almost always make less than someone with a more expensive contract.

    -We filled the hole, so who cares if we overspent or signed the wrong player?

    Winning a Superbowl is exceptionally difficult. In order to be a contender you need to make the shrewdest decisions you can and use your limited resources in the most efficient ways possible. Every dollar we spend on one player is a dollar we cannot spend on another. And for every player we miss out on another team gets the benefit of their services. Mistakes we make this offseason can not only be the difference between a win and a loss, it can be the difference between wins and losses for years to come.

    A good example can be found just in this thread. Let’s say Brandon Albert plays just as well as Jared Veldheer for the entirety of their contracts. Ignoring the obvious fact that one is cheaper than the other, by the time they are up for an extension Veldheer will presumably still have a couple more years of productive play left in him while Albert is settling down to retire.

    We fired Jeff Ireland this offseason. There is no reason to continue to settle for less than superior decisions. If we want to be one of the best teams in the league on the field, then we need to start being one of the best teams off the field. It’s not something that’s beyond this franchise. It just requires hiring the right people. We shall see if Hickey is right for the job.

    -We are a tackle away from taking off, we should just spend our 1[SUP]st[/SUP] on it and be done with the problem!

    To be blunt, we are not a tackle away from being a Superbowl contender. We aren’t a single player away from being a contender no matter the position. We averaged less than 20 points a game last season. Granted, the line being historically terrible did affect our ability to score, but we still didn’t have enough players who can put up points in less than ideal circumstances. We still didn’t have enough players on defense to prevent the other team from scoring. Years of mistakes in the 2008-2012 offseasons have left this roster depleted. With the exception of our defensive line and our quarterback, there isn’t a position group on this team that couldn’t use an upgrade of some sort.

    Regardless of that, we can still find a superior player at the right tackle and/or guard position later in the draft. Last season had an excellent example of this:

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/02/28/jvm-guards-and-centers/

    Admittedly this example concerns the guard position and not tackle, and no singular example should ever be taken for law and used in all circumstances. Still, it shows quite vividly that you can find solid production later in a draft for “non-impact” position while investing in a potential impact player with your higher picks. As our own draft history has shown, the reverse is not always true.

    If we have a choice between walking out of the draft with a potential playmaker and a solid lineman or simple a solid lineman and some project at a position required to put points on the board, the superior option is obvious to me.

    -Our line was horrible last season, we have to fill those needs.

    If you always worry about your previous year you will never be successful. Nothing happens in a vacuum, every teams roster will always have issues cropping up on a yearly basis. Players get injured, players get old, players get too expensive to keep…something is always coming to a head. One team above all the others attempted to build their team by focusing on the past instead of the future. A high ranking front office officially admitted as much:

    http://mmqb.si.com/2014/02/21/nfl-players-on-what-joe-philbin-didnt-know/

    While that quote was primarily focused on free agency, it’s not difficult to project it onto their draft philosophy as well. Not after picks like Travis Frederick.

    -How do you know those free agents would want to sign with us?

    I don’t. But Joe Philbin and Dennis Hickey are being paid millions of dollars to convince potential players to play for us. Some players will decide matters with their emotions and no amount of reasoning will change their mind. But those players are in the extreme minority. For the right money and the promise of success, players will gladly sign with almost any team.

    Not to mention the fact that we have many benefits other teams do not simply because of our location. Players will keep more of their paychecks due to tax breaks. Many are from Florida and already have homes and/or families in the area. And, despite the utterly ridiculous notion of some on here that the team is 2 minutes away from moving, in a league that doesn’t lack for small market locals such as St. Louis and Buffalo, sunny and active South Florida sounds like a paradise.

    If the people running this franchise can’t convince players to sign a giant contract with us while we have those factors in our favor, then we need to reexamine their employment status.

    -You just want our quarterback to get sacked!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

    -If we draft a right tackle now, we can kick them over to left tackle in a few years.

    Often this can be the case. But it’s not a law unto man. Ck explained it quite well:

    The quote continues but this part addressed the issue succinctly. He’s correct. In all likelihood Zack Martin could handle the demands of a right tackle. But it’s no guarantee.

    While kicking them over to left tackle isn’t necessarily a problem, it’s a grossly inefficient way to address the situation. We just spent $46 million on that position. That position needs to be fixed. If we are forced to deal with it in the future, we can always plug in a rookie and have the reasonable assumption that they would play competently. Unlike receivers or pass rushers who typically require a year or two to develop, it’s not unheard of for lineman to be plugged into the lineup and play well. Assuming the lineman is worth drafting in the first place.

    My Opinion

    To prevent people from assuming they know my opinion on this subject I’ll briefly go over my views on free agency and the upcoming draft.

    -What I think we should have done

    Of the top 4 free agents I believe we picked the worst option. Does Albert help this team? Absolutely. That goes without saying. But we very easily could have done better. Age, cost/value, talent, durability…he was second or third on the list of available players in every category.

    I believe there is a direct correlation between our lack of success and the amount of resources we’ve dumped into our offensive line during Jeff Ireland’s tenure. Every pick we spent on lineman was a pick we did not spend on someone who could score a touchdown. Every dollar we spent on guards and centers was a dollar we did not spend on someone who could prevent touchdowns. With this crop of free agents I believed we could fix the problem for years to come. Instead, it appears that we will have to revisit this issue again in a season or two. We are spinning the tires when we could be moving forward. Even if Albert is the best player, which I disagree with, will he be the best player 3 years from now? I sincerely doubt that.

    Before free agency officially began I wanted Jared Veldheer, as I felt his deal would bring the greatest value. Though I thought Monroe was the best tackle on the market, but I felt Veldheer would come considerably cheaper while still providing a very solid level of production, production that would far outplayed whatever contract we handed him. Hindsight being what it is, Monroe was easily the best choice. I believe he will be more productive then Albert in both the short term and long term.

    -What I think should happen (draft)

    My draft philosophy has been “best player available so long as it makes logical sense.” The attached idea to my “rule” is value. I worship value. It’s not enough to get a good player with a high pick, I truly believe what makes a general manager great is understanding they can get the same player later in the draft.

    Just like I wouldn’t draft a kicker in the first round, it doesn’t make logical sense to draft a right tackle or guard that high. I wouldn’t get great value in return for that pick. As well, I understand that any lineman that is available at 19 probably wouldn’t be a solution at left tackle, even down the road.

    This particular draft has more than a few players with impact potential. I’ve personally fallen in love with a handful of the receivers in this class. I’d draft Sammy Watkins, Odell Beckham, Mike Evans, Eric Ebron, Kelvin Benjamin, and Marqise Lee over any lineman not named Jake Matthews or Greg Robinson.

    In the divide between want and realism, the player I’d like us to land with the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] pick is Odell Beckham.

    -What I think will happen

    We will draft Zack Martin at 19.

    I also think there is an outside-the-box possibility that we trade up with Minnesota and select Matthews or Robinson. Minnesota hasn’t even hidden the fact they want to trade back and would probably be willing to accept a deal similar to what we gave Oakland last year. As most of the teams in the top 7 have heavily invested in the tackle position, and I don’t believe their records and past draft history are a giant coincidence, I think there is a fair chance at least one of those two, if not both, drop to the Vikings at 8.

    Conclusion

    Everyone wants our line fixed. I doubt anyone who watched any of our games last season came to the conclusion that it played in any sort of acceptable fashion. The key disagreement concerns how we fix it. For myself, I believe the best way of using our resources is by avoiding tackles high in the draft. I still believe in our team’s spoken philosophy when it comes to the draft. Despite the moves we’ve already made, this team can still find considerable success if we make shrewd moves in the immediate future.

    Thank you for reading. As a gift, here’s how I hope our 2014 season goes:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2014
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  2. spiketex

    spiketex Kiko, El Bravo 47 - the yappy chihuahua Super Donator Donator

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    Great reading. Thanks Spesh. However, it also supports the case that if an exceptional Guard emerges, he should be strongly considered. Xavier Su'a-Filo could well be that man and he's very high character natural athlete who is well suited to the ZBS and also a natural leader in the locker room. I'm increasingly convinced XSF is the safe pick who will be available when we pick.
     
  3. fishfanmiami

    fishfanmiami Have you seen junior's grades ? Moderator Finheaven VIP

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    Appreciate the time and effort that went into that post . Not to mention the cool gift.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2014
  4. rob19

    rob19 Soul Rebel Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Well done.

    Though, I think you're a bit higher on Benjamin and Lee than I am. I'd probably still take Lewan over those two guys, just due to his freakish size and athleticism at 6'8, 315. He may not ever be Joe Thomas, but I think he could have a long, very solid career as a left tackle from day one. Not unlike when the Patriots drafted 6'8 Nate Solder in 2011 with the seventeenth overall pick. Obviously, he would initially be playing right tackle for us for a few years until we could get out from under Albert's contract, and then kick him over to the left side. Ultimately, it's probably a moot point as I think he'll be gone by the time we pick.

    As unfair as it may be, one of the things that always comes to mind when anyone mentions Marqise Lee is that shot NFL Network got of Pete Carroll when Lee was running his forty at the combine. Carroll sort of stares on in amazement for a few seconds, and you can lip read him saying “Wow”, before he scribbles something down in his notes. To put Lee’s forty in perspective, at a little over 5’11 inches and 192 pounds, he ran a 4.52 second forty. That was only one centisecond faster than 6’6, 266 pound Jadaveon Clowney’s 4.53 forty. Like I said, unfair to judge a player solely based on his forty time, but if someone had any doubts about his recent injury history, his forty didn’t do him any favors.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-combine/0ap2000000328328/Carroll-disappointed-with-Lee-s-40-time

    At 6’5, 245 pounds, Kelvin Benjamin is one Tuesday at KFC away from being a tight-end. I suspect that once this kid spends some time in an NFL weight room and has a few steak dinners with his new contract, he’ll be playing at 250+ come game days. A transition to tight-end might not necessarily be a bad thing. He could turn out to be Jordan Cameron, who played wide receiver at USC before making the move to tight-end, or he could turn out to be Ernest Wilford-esque. I’d lean more towards the former, but as CK mentioned, it can be risky-business projecting position changes going from college to the pros.

    Hell, I only watched him in the Hawaii Bowl, but I really liked what I saw from that Cooks kid out of Oregon State. He ran a blazing 4.33 forty at the combine, and has been drawing a lot of Steve Smith comparisons. Not that I would necessarily take any of these three guys at 19, but I would strongly consider taking Cooks over both Lee and Benjamin. Plus, he seems like a really nice dude. This is a video of him buying his mother a Mercedes.
    [video=youtube;dzmBWiyIS6A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzmBWiyIS6A#t=63[/video]
     
  5. Finsfan1984

    Finsfan1984 Seasoned Veteran

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    good read...thanks
     
  6. Finsfan1984

    Finsfan1984 Seasoned Veteran

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    I would like to add my 2 cts here. I want us to ALWAYS draft the BPA, and while we do still have needs on the OL, I am getting tired of watching everyone else get "PLAYMAKERS" instead of us.
     
  7. rev kev

    rev kev THE DEFLATOR

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    There was nothing wrong with the Long selection at the time - unfortunately the team hit a gravy train when Brady went down and went to the POs instead of getting a top 5 pick in the draft we had become a PO team -> YAH FREAKIN RIGHT!! - the Travesty of thse regimes is when they reached for PLAY-MAKERS in the LIKES of Tedd Ginn Jr. and the Pat White pick along with all these other SCRUBs of Olinemen who just couldn't get it done.

    I would have no problem getting more Olinemen who can get to the second level - pinning an entire regimes success on guys like Long is just exageration -

    that said yes the D pressure comes from all sides and an opposing coach worth his salt is gonna pick the matchup to exploit
     
  8. Gonzo

    Gonzo Widerstand Administrator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    When going after playmakers, you still have to choose the right ones. Playmaker was absolutely the right call at #9. The error was reaching for Ginn instead of taking a playmaker worthy of that spot such as Willis, Revis, or Griffin; all of whom were mentioned quite frequently on here. As for Long, that pick set us back years. Prioritizing line over QB is ludicrous.
     
  9. BlueFin

    BlueFin Seer of Visions Finheaven VIP

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    Good read and well done. I do agree with Spike that it does support XSF as a solid safe pick at 19 which I happen to agree with.

    I think it makes some good points but it does not change my view that we simply have to solidfy our O-line with a couple O-line picks in the first 3 rounds IMO.

    The reason I think Zach Martin is such a great pick is simply his versataility, if god forbid we should lose Branden Albert for any length of time who would man the left side?

    Drafting a versatile O-lineman would be a great choice.

    As far as the importance of the left side now? I think we saw how important it was last year. I do however agree that teams are sending pressure from all over the place now more than ever.

    But, that just amplifies how important solidifying the entire line is and how multiple picks should be spent in that area in this draft.

    While you can almost always upgrade every area of a football team....I think we are ok nearly everywhere else with depth most everywhere else.

    It can be argued we need another linebacker or another safety...but nowhere on this team needs more help than the O-line.
     
  10. Digital

    Digital Starter

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    Great post Spesh. If I could figure out how to thank you on Tapatalk, I would.

    I agree with most of what you said, and appreciate your good job of sourcing.

    While I agree with the vast majority of it, I do have a few nitpicks.

    For instance, I think your Warburg example is misleading. Taking one of th top successes from a round does not show the likelihood of finding a player like that in that round. If it did, people would be looking for the next Brady in the 6th round instead of the next Manning in the 1st.

    If you compare the success rates of all 1st round picks that year vs. All of the 3rd rounders, it paints a much clearer picture of our chances to find a successful OL.

    Likewise, if you just want to compare OL with a decent sample size you should include the last few years of OL. Also, there is a big difference between LT, RT, and all 3 interior line positions. While the functions are similar, the consequences of failure and the level of competition is vastly different. OT's make more money than OG's because they are responsible for more space and player calls.

    You can't really equate the OT prospects the same way you equate the OG prospects because here simply are a lot more people capable of playing OG competently compared to the relative few who even have the potential to play OT.

    Getting an OG in the 3rd round is more likely than getting an OT in the third round. This draft is so deep that we can get someone like Jack Mewhort in round 3, but he might not be a great scheme fit. Whereas we might be able to get a scheme fit OG like Wesley Johnson in round 5 or 6. So, I think you are under selling the first day OT options a bit.


    As for WR"s, you are spot on with the phenomenal depth in this draft. While I wouldn't criticize getting a top WR like Sammy Watkins, Mike Evans or Marquise Lee, I'm not as high on some of the other ones.

    Where I think this draft really gives value is selecting WR's and CB's in rounds 5-7. By then all of the team needing a WR will have obtained them ... and there will still be quite a few decent picks left.

    I'd rather take a late round flyer on a guy like Jeff Janis (6'3, 4.4ish forty, fluid movements, decent hands, good RAC, low level of competition). In most drafts he would be a 3rd rounder possibly 2nd rounder, but in this super deep WR draft he will go in the 5th or 6th round, and could be a steal.

    There are a lot of prospects for late round WR's. The same goes for CB, which is also extremely deep. So, if it's value you want, most likely avoid WR and take OL early, then come back for WR later. That's just my $0.02. Again, these are nitpicks. I thought your OP was outstanding.

    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
     
  11. Dogbone34

    Dogbone34 cowboy surfer

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    Odell Beckham Jr as a Miami Dolphin would be an outstanding pick.

    I don't think he makes it to #19.
     
  12. rent this space

    rent this space Starter Finheaven VIP

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    I'm ok with any position at #19, like you say there aren't many positions that couldn't use top level talent added. A true seam-threat TE would help scoring maybe more than any other spot on offense. An elite LB would help the entire defense just as much.
    But the O-line needs attention no later Friday of draft weekend, IMO. They need to get a group of guys that can execute the scheme and there are still at least 2 starters needed.
     
  13. roy_miami

    roy_miami 2020 cant get here soon enough Donator

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    I would guess that no matter which of the top 3 tackles we targeted that tackle would be the highest paid, for example had we gone after Monroe we likely would have had to pay at least $8.5 to steal him from the Ravens and if we weren't in the Albert market he obviously goes for less than the $9.2 so if we land Monroe instead at best him and Albert get very similar deals. There is no way Newsome is going to trade for Monroe without some assurances that Monroe would be open to signing a long term deal with them and Newsome's approach with his own free agents seems to be to let other GMs set the market for him, Newsome likely has a high number in mind, in this case it was probably $8-8.5 and its up to other GMs to beat that number to get the player.

    Unfortunately for us thanks to Martin-gate and Irelands ineptness we had no choice but to sign at least one of the top tackles in free agency so at the end of the day we were forced to overpay for whichever tackle Hickey/Philbin felt was the best fit. I agree that Monroe at $7.5 > Albert at $9.2 but I don't think that was really our choice, our choice was probably more like Albert at $9.2 or Monroe at $9.1.
     
  14. NY8123

    NY8123 Sophisticated Redneck Administrator Finheaven VIP

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    “You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.” ~ Abraham Lincoln
     
  15. Gonzo

    Gonzo Widerstand Administrator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Sure you can. Win. The only people that wouldn't be pleased with that are jests fans, but they're not really people.


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  16. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Great post Spesh, and appreciate all the time and effort it took. UNBELIEVABLE that this forum is giving you 3 stars for it. LOL
     
  17. Gonzo

    Gonzo Widerstand Administrator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Amazing, isn't it? :lol: Guy puts a ton of effort into it and somebody is so lazy that they can't even bother to respond, they just give a negative review. You may disagree with what he wrote, but still respect the effort he put into it. Anyways, my rating should help negate that :)


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  18. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Completely agree. That OP had to take a hell of along time to put together, and was great. How do you change the stars, never did that before?
     
  19. Gonzo

    Gonzo Widerstand Administrator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    You can rate threads in the upper right corner. :hi5:


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  20. Bumpus

    Bumpus Are you gonna drink that? Administrator Finheaven VIP

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    [​IMG]
     
  21. Etuoo33

    Etuoo33 Seasoned Veteran

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    Spesh touched on something that I view as VERY important, the fact the Defenses are taking a more direct route to the QB. I am a proponent of obtaining the best G at #19 and filling a hole that has been there for years. You look at what happened last year and they targeted different parts of the line to attack, concentrating on the middle. RI was never a great pass protector, and Fatboy often never even touched the right guy. When we needed a yard up the middle the line was pushed in to the backfield, fix the G position you fix this line.
     
  22. Zounds

    Zounds CPA4LYFE Donator

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    Nice effort, nice organization, but really....all that just to say we shouldn't take a OL with our 1st round draft pick?
     
  23. DKphin

    DKphin A True Fan Donator

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    You could have just put this out in paperback.:lol: But for me, it is Zach Martin in the 1st. If he is is not there, then Filo.
     
  24. Gonzo

    Gonzo Widerstand Administrator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    [​IMG]


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  25. Zounds

    Zounds CPA4LYFE Donator

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    Lets consider this: 11 of 12 playoff teams last year had a 1st round pick at a starting OT position. All 11 of those OT's were drafted by the teams they played on - none of them were free agent signings, they were all homegrown 1st round draft picks. Lets not kid ourselves into thinking OT shouldn't be seriously considered in the 1st round.
     
  26. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    If Martin is there you take him i agree bpa but think a tackle is likely bpa
     
  27. Gonzo

    Gonzo Widerstand Administrator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    We already have a 1st round pick starting at OT. Guess we can check that off. :d-day:
     
  28. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    An interesting read and a good effort I just can't say as an evaluator I agree with the end result message...
     
  29. spiketex

    spiketex Kiko, El Bravo 47 - the yappy chihuahua Super Donator Donator

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    What if according to the Hickey rankings, the best player available happens to be a QB or a Center, who surprisingly falls in the Draft? I like many happen to believe that we have a decent QB in Ryan Tannehill, with better protection, he is set to improve. We also have a top Center in Mike Pouncey. However, if we are simply taking the BPA per the board, does that mean that we take the QB or the Center who we don't need but are surprisingly there at #19?
    I would argue that BPA has to match to some extent with team needs and is therefore strictly not BPA.
     
  30. LANGER72

    LANGER72 A True Fan

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    One of the best posts of the year. Thanks for taking the time.

    Fu*&%ing Ireland.
    Ireland has been killing this team since the Tuna handed over the reigns.
    I don't know that Hickey will be the second coming of (insert favorite GM here), but he definitely has much more experience and I think he will do a very good job for us.
    I am just keeping an open mind. I know who I would pick, but I am putting my faith in Hickey that he will get it done.
     
  31. roy_miami

    roy_miami 2020 cant get here soon enough Donator

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    This is why I don't like the phrase "we need to just draft bpa no matter what." We need to draft for value and part of that formula should be overall player rankings but team needs should also definitely be part of it. The value of a RT for us may be different than his value to a team needing a QB.
     
  32. Gonzo

    Gonzo Widerstand Administrator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    If he has a C in the top 19, we need a new GM. But theoretically, if one of the top QBs fell, I wouldn't be upset despite having faith in Tannehill. Solves the backup QB problem, gives a potential out if Tannehill suprisingly doesn't pan out this year, and gives us trade bait if he does.

    That being said, it's a highly unlikely scenario because there are enough teams smart enough to value QBs above all else, as they should.
     
  33. LANGER72

    LANGER72 A True Fan

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    I think you take the BPA and worry about the implications later. Pouncey could move to guard. If the QB drafted was the next Marino, Tannehill would be traded to Jacksonville in 2 seconds.
    A good GM is always looking to upgrade.
     
  34. DzakkH13

    DzakkH13 Winning is a Habit Donator

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    Nice write up Spesh. Not sure I'd take a RT at 19, but there definitely needs to be talent along the OL as well as talent at impact positions.
    This draft is going to be very interesting because of the fact that at 19, we could have a number of talented players fall to us.

    Being that this draft is deep at OT, I could see us finding a rookie starting RT in the 2nd round. Only positions on the OL that I think warrant a 1st round pick are LT and C.
     
  35. DzakkH13

    DzakkH13 Winning is a Habit Donator

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    But is this the exception or the rule? How many of those teams had a QB or pass rusher or play maker taken in the the 1st round?
    I am all for a 1st on a LT, but why spend a first on a guy to play RT? Albert is locked up to be our LT for at least 3 years.
    Our team has more pressing needs at premium position than to be getting a RT in the 1st. There will be better players available at 19 than Martin.
     
  36. GoonBoss

    GoonBoss Finheaven Templar Super Donator Donator

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    Clearly, the game's paradigm has shifted since I was a kid, and increasingly to today.

    Like taxes, once a rule is in place, it's not likely to be pulled back....Ever. Now that
    the former players we all used to consider iron men and tough guys have opened
    up the can of worms, there's literally nothing the NFL can do except act in a manner
    that mitigates future damages.

    It's rapidly becoming flag football. I don't mean that literally, I mean that speed is
    what is going to be the determining factor rather than power. I love a power running
    game, but there's only going to be so much of a window for that sort of offense in the
    new NFL.

    What chaps my *** is that Tannehill would be a great, mobile, athletic QB if anyone
    would let him. Instead, he's just going to get killed, unless Lazor can actually do
    anything about it.

    I don't have much confidence in any move at this point.
     
  37. Zounds

    Zounds CPA4LYFE Donator

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    So then you understand that there is value in selecting an OL in the 1st round? or are you supporting the idea in the OP that no OL should be taken in the 1st round...
     
  38. Fin Thirteen

    Fin Thirteen FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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  39. Gonzo

    Gonzo Widerstand Administrator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    No, I understand that there can be some value in selecting an OL in the first round (OT only really), especially now that we don't have to invest so much cap in a non-playmaking position any longer. This is especially true when you are pretty much set at QB (we weren't with Long) and playmakers (we aren't). This is mostly because the old timer views of the league still prevail in some circles, the view that OT is the most important position in football (not even close) and so they continue to overdraft the position. This means that if you want one of the best, you're probably not going to get the best value and you're going to sacrifice a playmaking position to get one. If it comes down to either overdrafting the position or overpaying in FA for a proven starter, I'll take the playmaker in the draft and do what we did this offseason: overpay for a FA.

    Like Spesh, there are others that I liked better than Albert and I think injuries and age will force a future move earlier than others would have (certainly not in this draft outside of a midrounder to groom behind him), but I like the move overall because it frees us in the draft from fans losing their minds if we didn't draft an OT with 19 and saves us the time of an OT taken at 19 to figure out the pro game, something we don't have to wait for with Albert. He raped and pillaged our coffers though. He saw a weakness and fans absolutely losing their minds and took full advantage of being the "best available" OT. Good for him. He doesn't have much longer in the game, so he should get all the money he can.

    When it comes to interior line, I see very little value in drafting one in the 1st round, especially in the top 20. Bottom 5 of the first round? Little more reasonable. I don't think the changing league Spesh describes means that G and C has increased in value, just that OT has fallen in value and close to where G and C are. That being said, certain types of OL have increased in value a bit (again, rookie salary cap plays a role in that as much as the changing style of football). Of all the OL that could be available at 19, the only one I see any sort of value in, versus likely available playmakers, would be Martin and that's only because he also adds depth through his versatility. Nobody else. Even then, if somebody like Ebron falls, I'm taking him. Any of the likely available playmakers at 19 would carry far more value than Su'a-Filo and especially more than Moses. The gap in the talent levels of playmakers between 19 and 50 is wider than the gap between interior line and RT. There is less value in the latter.
     
  40. Zounds

    Zounds CPA4LYFE Donator

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    Some value is value. The premise of the OP is that there is no value in taking an OT in the first round. And just because you include a wall of text with nothing but fluff, it doesnt make it more right.
     

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