the official senior bowl week discussion thread...

[Hayden Fox]

Upshaw might not shine in this Senior Bowl setting. However, when he is put into a setting and a scheme he could thrive...

All this Upshaw talk is irreverent if we go 4-3.

 

[ckparrothead]

Yea I recall Kaep was lighting it up while Dalton wasn't. Here's a question I never got answered. Why was Gabbert rated so highly with such bad collegiate stats? He barely had more TDs thrown in his career than Chase Daniels did in one season.

A number of reasons. I don't agree with Slimm that it's just the Condon hype train. I don't think a plethora of professional scouts, coaches and GMs, guys that have been doing this longer and at a higher level than Slimm or myself could ever hope to, end up making these evaluations and decisions because of an agent.

Simply put, it's the dreaded 'P' word...potential.

Blaine Gabbert is a tall, clean and accurate thrower. You can get him in a practice setting and he'll pit the ace from 40 yards. He's got a photographic memory and a clean character profile. He's got athletic ability on that frame that is uncommon at the position. He sees the field well enough and can think quickly enough, has the confidence in his own throwing ability to throw players open.

When it comes to the offense and his lack of great games, you could certainly point to the lack of help, and a system that I think maybe some scouts hoped more than thought, just wasn't suited for him. Those receivers were pretty bad at times.

I think scouts envisioned him as a guy that maybe came out a year too early, but they were also pretty sure that if he returned for that year he'd end up looking a lot better.

I'm not trying to feed you any gimmicks or hype or anything like that. I'm just relating to you what the scouts actually thought about him, which I know through various contacts.

 

[ckparrothead]

I found it interesting tonight on NFL32 that they were talking the importance of hand size. Dilfer mention that it is an important measurement and Mort quoted Mike McCarthy has saying it is indicator off being able to play in all weather conditions wet and cold included.

I agree it can be pretty important. But I don't believe there's any prototype that says 10 inch hands are a must. 9.5 inch hands are considered plenty big for the QB position.

---------- Post added at 09:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 PM ----------

I bet Foles steals the show for QB's. Foles and Tannehill will push for the 3rd QB in the draft.

Foles size is impressive and loved him as a junior. He did not get much help this year and was in the middle of a coaching change.

Foles may steal the show but the QB darling from day, unanimous across pretty much all reports that saw him, was Weeden.

 

[ckparrothead]

The issues with small hands for a quarterback surface long before playing in the elements is even a factor. It begins with taking the snap from under center, and Weeden did fumble his first one today.

You could blame that on hands which are, in fact, not small for a quarterback.

Or you could pay attention to the elephant standing next to you in the room, the fact that he played in a shotgun offense at Oklahoma State and this is the first real practice setting where he's taken a lot of snaps from under Center...

Just sayin...

The proper way to receive a snap from under center is your hand on the meat of the football. If you have trouble getting your hand around the meat of the football, the center has to compensate for it by turning the football a full 90 degrees as opposed to a 'stock' 1/4 turn. It can lead to a long term issue that will always affect being able to take snaps from under center without mishandled snaps creeping in at times.

Inclement weather or high pressure situations magnify it.

It's just something to pay attention to.....

I definitely agree with your greater point, that hand size is going to show up a lot more than just in inclement weather. It's definitely something to keep an eye on. But never in my years paying attention to all this have I ever heard the idea put forward that 9.5 inch hands are "small" for a quarterback. This thread is, quite literally, the very first time I've heard that. Ever.

 

[ckparrothead]

if he continues to look the way he looked to me today in full pads when the men separate from the boys tomorrow and wednesday i'm thinking mike adams might be a 1st rounder...he towers over people and like i said i didn't see a waist bender despite that size...

i don't know...i know this...this draft to me is not the same level as the last 2 years...i think this drafts depth is lacking...i see a lot of guys who i don't think will help anyone in 2012...shrine bowl for my eyes was loaded with meh talent...senior bowl roster and north practice i saw few and far between...hopefully it will get better tomorrow...

dennard struggled with transitioning to his pedal and i think he lacks long speed...he was off balance all day...no wonder the guys so hands on...he has to be...quite overrated imo...amukamura last year had way better feet balance and hips...

leonard johnson is someone i've had my eye on but i thought today he had average feet and burst...i wanna see these guys in press mirror these wrs...and the north wrs...ehhhh...awful lot of guys running crap routes and lacking burst imo...

devier posey just the next garbage pro wr to come out of ohio st...the quick kid i thought was interesting til i saw him run routes...no burst or explosion there

stiff hips and meh prospects all over the place

You have to keep in mind that both Dennard and Johnson were put in position to be uncomfortable today, playing techniques they are not used to, asked to do things differently than they've generally ever done them before. That's the source of awkwardness you see out of guys like Johnson, Dennard and Fleming today. It's not really lack of ability, IMO.

 

[ckparrothead]

Ingram is better from a 2-point stance than he is with his hand in the dirt. The thing about Ingram is that you don't have to pencil him in as "this" or "that". He can play a variety of roles because he has a rare combination of speed, athletic ability, weight, frame and strength. I think he can literally play 5 different roles in a front 7.

Keep in mind that we're not seeing guys like Nick Perry and Ronnell Lewis either until the combine.

If Upshaw doesn't get 8 sacks as a rookie I'll eat my hat. Somebody is going to surprise you and end up being as good as they appear to be in games.

Like I said, once you see the broad jump/vertical jump numbers from the combine, you'll be able to narrow down who the 10 sack candidates are.

I agree with this. When you told me to take a look at Ingram more and I did, I saw Adalius Thomas. That's who I liken him to at the next level. He doesn't have the arms or the frame to be a consistent pass rusher, and we have disagreements about the source of his incredible slowness off the snap, but if it's something structural and not something fixable, then once again I point to Adalius Thomas and Melvin's future as a large, versatile linebacker.

And 100% agreed on Upshaw. You and I talked about Pernell McPhee a lot last year. Upshaw is Pernell McPhee as a pass rusher but with Von Miller's linebacker skills added in. He's going to be a good player.

 

[beanh8er]

A number of reasons. I don't agree with Slimm that it's just the Condon hype train. I don't think a plethora of professional scouts, coaches and GMs, guys that have been doing this longer and at a higher level than Slimm or myself could ever hope to, end up making these evaluations and decisions because of an agent.

Simply put, it's the dreaded 'P' word...potential.

Blaine Gabbert is a tall, clean and accurate thrower. You can get him in a practice setting and he'll pit the ace from 40 yards. He's got a photographic memory and a clean character profile. He's got athletic ability on that frame that is uncommon at the position. He sees the field well enough and can think quickly enough, has the confidence in his own throwing ability to throw players open.

When it comes to the offense and his lack of great games, you could certainly point to the lack of help, and a system that I think maybe some scouts hoped more than thought, just wasn't suited for him. Those receivers were pretty bad at times.

I think scouts envisioned him as a guy that maybe came out a year too early, but they were also pretty sure that if he returned for that year he'd end up looking a lot better.

I'm not trying to feed you any gimmicks or hype or anything like that. I'm just relating to you what the scouts actually thought about him, which I know through various contacts.

I wasn't doubting you on anything you said. I get that potential has a huge role in where people are drafted, and Gabbert looks the part, but at a certain point production has to come into it, and he had pretty close to no production at all given that offense. So you're view is that scouts were looking for something that wasn't there, but they so were convinced it was there that they just thought they were missing it? Pretty foolish on their part.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

A number of reasons. I don't agree with Slimm that it's just the Condon hype train. I don't think a plethora of professional scouts, coaches and GMs, guys that have been doing this longer and at a higher level than Slimm or myself could ever hope to, end up making these evaluations and decisions because of an agent.

Simply put, it's the dreaded 'P' word...potential.

Blaine Gabbert is a tall, clean and accurate thrower. You can get him in a practice setting and he'll pit the ace from 40 yards. He's got a photographic memory and a clean character profile. He's got athletic ability on that frame that is uncommon at the position. He sees the field well enough and can think quickly enough, has the confidence in his own throwing ability to throw players open.

When it comes to the offense and his lack of great games, you could certainly point to the lack of help, and a system that I think maybe some scouts hoped more than thought, just wasn't suited for him. Those receivers were pretty bad at times.

I think scouts envisioned him as a guy that maybe came out a year too early, but they were also pretty sure that if he returned for that year he'd end up looking a lot better.

I'm not trying to feed you any gimmicks or hype or anything like that. I'm just relating to you what the scouts actually thought about him, which I know through various contacts.

I don't think as many scouts were sold on Blaine Gabbert as the Tom Condon hype indicated. I don't believe scouts are that stupid, but scouts have very little say come draft day. The only NFL person I know for sure liked Gabbert was the one who drafted him and just fired his head coach.

I know Mike Shanahan and Washington wasn't sold on him. If they were they would've drafted him. Along with the Tennessee Titans, who were intelligent enough to take that "bum" Jake Locker instead.

Blaine Gabbert was a terrible quarterback at Missouri, which is why he didn't even make an All Big-12 team, and he's a terrible quarterback in the NFL for the same exact reasons he was a terrible quarterback at Missouri. He couldn't even produce in a system (and conference) designed to inflate his stats. That alone was a huge red flag, much less his lack of anything resembling pocket presence and accuracy.


Evaluating talent and coaching it are two completely different things. Evaluating talent is essentially projecting and guesswork. Anybody with two eyeballs can see "elite physical tools" in a football player. Knowing how to coach fundamentals and molding a football player with your own hands involves no guesswork or projection.

If you can't spot the things that a guy is doing wrong as opposed to what he's doing right, that's the difference between a football coach and a sportswriter. A sportswriter only knows what somebody else tells them.

The half a dozen little things that a center and quarterback have to get right in the tenth of second it takes to snap the football.... well.. there's only one way to know that... and that's by being on the field teaching it.

I'd refrain from speaking on behalf of what Slimm has done and at what level if I were you. You don't learn what I know from surfing stat websites.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

I agree with this. When you told me to take a look at Ingram more and I did, I saw Adalius Thomas. That's who I liken him to at the next level. He doesn't have the arms or the frame to be a consistent pass rusher, and we have disagreements about the source of his incredible slowness off the snap, but if it's something structural and not something fixable, then once again I point to Adalius Thomas and Melvin's future as a large, versatile linebacker.

And 100% agreed on Upshaw. You and I talked about Pernell McPhee a lot last year. Upshaw is Pernell McPhee as a pass rusher but with Von Miller's linebacker skills added in. He's going to be a good player.

I didn't say Melvin Ingram has an ideal combination, I said he has a rare combination. You don't come across many 275 pound defensive lineman with the athletic ability, speed and open field running skills that Ingram possesses, or even get very close to it often. Obviously he has short arms and he'd have a little more length to him if he was an ideal combination. The point is, don't mistake rare for ideal.

Some guys just have a knack for making plays because instinct and football IQ. The right coach with the right plan for Melvin Ingram should be rewarded.

 

[hoops]

mayock just said something interesting about weeden...he said he'll be a 29 year old rookie in october how do you feel as a general manager about a kid who by the time he gets to his second contract will be a 33-34 year old guy...

i think its a valid point...

 

[bigvince75]

One player who I'm definitely starting to get intrigued by is Jack Crawford. Good balance of size and strength and a huge wingspan.

I'm warming up to Cam Johnson as well.

 

[ckparrothead]

It's a valid question, always has been a valid question. The follow up question should be, "How do you feel as a general manager knowing that you may be fired before Brandon Weeden can reach his 2nd contract, wherever he ends up, because you don't win in this league without a quarterback?"

That would be my follow up question.

 

[Lord Of Miami]

Brandon Weeden's age should only keep him out of the top 20 in my mind.

 

[bigvince75]

I'm starting to become a fan of Audie Cole. I've ben reading a lot of good things leading up to the Senior Bowl and sofar he's been off to a good start at the senior bowl. I was hoping Lavonte David would weight in heavier than 225; i love how he plays but I can't see him as a LB at the next level.

 

[insom187]

At this point from what I'm reading around the web Upshaw sounds like a solid impact defensive player at the 9 spot which is fine by me. At this point though I really want Fleener out of Stanford. The league still hasn't adjusted to big, fast TEs and he could become the next one in line.