The one thing that concerns me about Jordan

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by DKphin, Apr 30, 2013.

  1. DKphin

    DKphin A True Fan Donator

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    I know he was coming off labrum surgery and that is why he did not participate in the BP testing at the combine. I have a real concern about how strong this kid is going to be at the POA. I know his wingspan of 83" puts him at a disadvantage when it comes to testing, but with his build and only weighing around 250, I have concerns. JT was slim for the position, but the guy was strong as an Ox. I remember he and Sapp in BP competitions and he would consistently beat Warren. There was a player that played for UF, Huey Richardson. All-American and mister everything at UF. He got drafted by Pittsburgh in the 1st rd of the '91 draft. He was 6'5" and 229lbs. and never did anything in the Pros. Dion looks a lot like Richardson which puts me a little on edge when I think about the comparison. Does anyone have any info on strength numbers? Because there is absolutely no info that I could find on the web.
     
  2. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I'm not as worried about this, depending on his position. If he's asked to be a base defensive end then I might worry a little more. But if he's played correctly, he'll be fine.

    He's a lot more savvy with blockers coming out to him in run blocking than when he has to go to them in pass rush. Someone said it best when you've got a tall wiry guy like this either they're too light on their feet and easily moves, or they're a lot stronger and tougher than you'd have thought. He's more the latter.

    Stopping the run from his position as an OLB was never my concern about him.
     
  3. DKphin

    DKphin A True Fan Donator

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    I was incorrect. His wingspan is only 81.44". Still a disadvantage in testing.
     
  4. TrinidadDolfan

    TrinidadDolfan 1st Team All-Pro

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    CK. Went through your Twitter timeline....

    What is your grade on the pick?
    Can he line up opposite Wake every down?
    how do you see him performing in the NFL?

    Talk to me...
     
  5. TealAttack13

    TealAttack13 A True Fan

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    I think he's in great shape and should be able to bounce back from surgery. He's also going to try and put on 10 pounds if muscle before the season starts. Assume he puts on 20 pounds in the next few years and is healthy, I think he is going to be a beast.
     
  6. Digital

    Digital Starter

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    I like Jordan, and if we were going to trade up, that's probably the most valuable player in the long run, so I'm OK with the pick despite preferring to keep our 2nd and take Eifert.

    But, Jordan is definitely a risk/reward pick. He is a pass rusher who did not dominate competition despite having an offense that scored so much the other team was always in pass mode.

    Physically, he is the classic tweener, and mirrors some of our worst picks historically, such as Eric Kummerow and John Boss from an earlier age, and past draft enigmas like Aundray Bruce and Jamal Anderson.

    However, he has limited experience and excellent length and speed. Recently, players like that have succeeded, such as Aldon Smith, JPP, and Chandler Jones. But, every one of those guys has drastically more power than Jordan, so he probably needs to bulk up significantly to have a chance at greatness.

    Furthermore, those body types project far more favorably to the 34 OLB than to 43 DE's until he gains a good 30+ pounds of muscle and improves his hand work.

    He is very raw as a pass rusher, so he needs to concentrate on improving his hand work, learning to use his leverage better, and developing several more pass rush moves to add to simply running around end.

    I wouldn't expect greatness overnight, but he has the athletic ability and work ethic to get there, IMHO.
     
  7. foozool13

    foozool13 #12 #13 #23 #29 #54 #99 Donator

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    Jordan will not play much on run downs. He is going to come in on obvious passing downs and will be used in coverage as well. If he were going to be our starting DE this year then I would have some worries as well, but that wont be the case until next year. By next year with 1 year under his belt and a second offseason with Wake and the rest of this D-line he should be fine.
     
  8. rnrexpress3423

    rnrexpress3423 To be the man, you gotta beat the man!

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    While Wake isn't the best against the run, he's improved drastically. I have faith in this coaching staff for once and they will get the most out of this kids potential.

    Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
     
  9. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    To be exact, he was my 9th best player in the draft. Would I have personally traded up from 12 to 3 to get him? No. Does that mean I don't like him? Not at all. I've been talking this guy up for about a year, since June of 2012 when someone turned me onto him. NFL evaluators have been talking him up for about that same length of time, some of them even voting for HIM over the likes of Ndamukong Suh, Jason Pierre-Paul, etc...as a guy that will be the best defensive player in the NFL in 5 years.

    He's a catch.

    Is he the best catch we could have made? Personally I don't think so. Did we end up giving up a valuable pick in pick #42 in order to make that catch? Yes we did.

    The only thing I am worried about with him is whether he will be used correctly by the staff. I would LIKE to buy hook, line and sinker that the staff knows what they're doing in all cases with all players...they're professionals, they know way more football than I do, but that doesn't mean they've always been right when it comes to marrying the evaluation of a player with what we should do with him on the field.

    When I watched Richard Marshall's work at Arizona and Carolina I saw a guy that was troublesome if you put him on the perimeter as a starting corner, but who actually may make a good safety. They stuck him at corner. He struggled, before he got hurt.

    When I looked at Olivier Vernon I saw a multiple player with really surprising stout and strong hands for his size, a guy that moves well in space and is flexible, but a guy who really does not rush the passer off the edge very well at all. I thought it would be nice to use him as a multiple player on the edge in run situations, and I thought you could reduce him down and rush him over a guard in pass situations a la Pernell McPhee. You could do that because even though he's not a savvy pass rusher, his athleticism advantage over guards makes him dangerous. In response, guards will try and maximize their physicality advantage over him in order to cancel his athletic advantage. That would work if he wasn't so suprisingly stout at the point of attack with such strong hands. But I think the surprisingly good and strong hands helps nullify the guards' primary weapon against him, allowing him to maximize his advantage in athleticism against them. That's my running theory. Either way, watch a few games of him in college and you know he's weak coming off the edge as a pass rusher. What did the Dolphins do with him? They trained him on as a pass rush SPECIALIST from the wing. A specialist! Only later did they start to realize some of the things I would have guessed and they started focusing on taking advantage of the fact that he's a multiple type of player. But they never explored the inside rush possibility.

    Finally there's Dimitri Patterson. For years I've watched this guy and tracked his metrics. It's pretty clear he's a good slot corner that consistently gets in trouble when asked to get out on the boundary. Miami claims him off waivers from Cleveland. What do they do? Well, he spent a total of 4 snaps in the slot, and 49 snaps on the perimeter. Before getting hurt. Oops.

    You could also argue that they never quite used Sean Smith properly.

    These guys are the professionals. They know a lot about what they're doing. I give them a TON of credit for taking guys that are in some key ways difficult to scheme properly like Cameron Wake and Koa Misi, and they found ways to make them flourish. But it doesn't stop them from being wrong every now and then.

    What I worry about with a guy like Dion Jordan is he's not a straight forward player. He's a complicated player. He presents certain surprising skills, and certain surprising weaknesses. Figuring out the best way to make him a stellar force in the league is not going to be easy, though I think it is doable. So until I see the results, I'm going to be just a little bit nervous.
     
  10. Dob86

    Dob86 Member

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    ok doc glad you know best
     
  11. KTOWNFINFAN

    KTOWNFINFAN Seasoned Veteran

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    Don't think we are going to see much from Jordan in his rookie year. Not in terms of stats and such, you might see some flashes but he is a year away from being very useful. No way you are going to see him playing DE this year. OTs will grab a hold of him and he won't be going any where til they let go. Out in space where he can get a head start or fall back into coverage is where you will see him flash this year. He just doesn't have the strength yet to play DE.
     
  12. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    This is PROBABLY something people already know...but perhaps it's a good reminder.

    Every one of Dion Jordan's 5.0 sacks came before he suffered his shoulder injury toward the beginning of the Colorado game. To that point he had 5.0 sacks, 7.0 TFLs, 2 forced fumbles and 29 tackles in 7 games. After the injury, he had 0.0 sacks, 3.0 TFLs, 1 forced fumble and 11 tackles in 4 games. The surgery he needed was for a torn rotator cuff.

    That's the thing if you get caught up watching the Stanford, USC, Oregon State or Kansas State games. If you're seeing something missing from his game in those films, there's probably a reason. Probably should look more to the Fresno State, Arizona State, Washington State, Arizona and Washington games for good footage on him.
     
  13. rev kev

    rev kev THE DEFLATOR

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    For me Jordan is not JT and doesn't appear to be on tape - whether hand in ground or not

    Jordan is an off the edge rusher he is an OLB with the 3/4 - he will be an OLB in the 4/3 and will be asked to blitz or drop into space and cover - he is super fluid on tape

    If people would lay off the strick DE comparisons I think people would breathe easier - the pick is about getting to the QB no one said he had to be a DE
     
  14. twohype

    twohype Seasoned Veteran

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    BINGO we have a winner......Outstanding points.......it seems that very few if ANY other people on this board know that he played injured after the Colorado game. There are even people who ONLY refer to the USC game and then say he's no good (that's pure crazy talk), I think Dion Jordan is going to be good, really good, but I also believe that he is going to need full year in an NFL weight room
     
  15. Phinatic8u

    Phinatic8u Adam ****ing Gase

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    Use him like Denver uses Von Miller and he'll be alright.
     
  16. dolfan91

    dolfan91 Starter Donator

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    Those same people who overlooked his injury, like Gruden and others, didn't seem to take it into account when making their analysis; and in turn blasted the pick. I've been nervous about Jordan, but, am no fool not to realize how good he could be, if utilized correctly. Until than I remain nervously optimistic.
     
  17. finfan54

    finfan54 A True Fan Donator

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    whatever rev
     
  18. rev kev

    rev kev THE DEFLATOR

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    Thanks for your input fin
     
  19. finfan54

    finfan54 A True Fan Donator

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    I cant beleive people have serious issues with him being a DE. Jason Taylor was straight up a DE at 240 day one in a 4-3. This kid is 250.

    I remember when Taylor came out as a late 3rd round. It raised eyebrows because he was from Akron and everyone in creation knew he was raw. That it would be a couple of years until he blossomed. Well, he blossomed and it took about the length of time they thought it would.

    So it has been proven that you can have a body type like this and be successful in a 4-3.

    So Mayock and others said they wonder how he will work in our system, then the next thing Mayock says he reminds him mostly of Jason Taylor. Well, Taylor played in 4-3 most his career. Its not rocket science and our coaching staff has already thought about this and he will eventually be able to transition to a 3-4 defense like JT did as well because of his body type and ability.

    only one thing. Jordan comes from a bigger program in Oregon, so the rawness is not something to worry about. And JT didnt have a guy like Wake around when he came in. Very avg. guys I recall. This kid is coming into a ripe situation. I see this kid hitting the weight room in a hurry like every one else and he will be looking at Wake's six pack abs and will be motivated. The kid is going to shine and Coyle will use him as a DE.

    Why? Because its much easier to do first year in the NFL. He will likely be used on DL for ST's to block kicks. Something him and Vernon will excell at.
     
  20. rev kev

    rev kev THE DEFLATOR

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    I am not listening to Mayock so my impression is just what I see -> i have no prob with Mayock

    My overall point is it doesn't matter whether DE or OLB -> he is going to be on the field 3 downs guaranteed -> he is behind because of injury -> in the near future i see a hybrid OLB rushing off the edge but also good in space, containing the mobile QB going balls to the wall to clobber Manning and Brady.

    I can telll you from experience the rotator cuff recovery is not something you just hit the weights with right off the hop -> but he will be a monster
     
  21. maralieus

    maralieus Lets get those balls deep!!

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    especially with our beast dl's
    taking up blockers. he should be taking on fullbacks or tight ends, which won't really be fair.
     

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