Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by afishfan, Dec 20, 2010.
and Ireland and Sparano
Long, V.Davis, S.Smith, and Misi are the only ones who have panned out. 4 in three years is pathetic
Langford, Clemmons, Bess, Hartline
Do we have to?
bess doesnt count he was undrafted
We did have to completely rebuild the defense. That does seem to be working out pretty well.
well i was going to list all the players but that got screwed up when i posted......but in reality what we see above is what we have ANYWAYS after their first 2 drafts (ill give them a pass so far on this year....its too early to pass judgement)
despite the fact we had an additional first rounder that everybody seems to continue to forget about AS WELL AS an additonal 2nd rounder that RANDY MUELLER obtained for us in the fantastic chris chambers trade AND the NUMBER ONE OVERALL PICK IN THE DRAFT
we came away with Jake Long and Kendall Langford.....thats a complete joke folks for a team picking first in each round AND several additional picks in the draft!
in year two again with an additonal second rounder obtained by trading away our former DPOY Jason Taylor and several additonal 5 rounders we came away with Vontae Davis, Sean Smith, Brian Hartline and Chris Clemons... i would say that Clemons and Hartline are very replaceable as they are average NFL players at best at this point. same could probably be said of Smith.
so thats not really saying much after two drafts that had MUCH MORE AMMUNITION going in than any normal draft....so neither of these drafts can be compared to an average year.....we simply had way more picks and were picking in very favorable postions. and essentially came away with nothing.
in addition they got rid of a guy that should have been the answer for us on the strongside at OLB in Matt Roth for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. and the guy most likely to make a big play and find his way to the end zone for this team despite all the hate among fans who were wrong about the guy (ted ginn) simply because he was picked ninth and we didnt draft brady quinn.....well that turned out to be the CORRECT CHOICE didnt it? in fact if you look at that draft there are only a few players that we should have taken in front of Ginn.....but we had so many holes we needed to create an identity...Ginn was to help in that new offensive philosophy by spreading the field vertically (which by the way would have been FAR MORE SUCCESSFUL then the current bull**** we watch). we got rid of him for nothing.
my contention would be that Randy Muellers ONLY draft in Miami was better than ANY of Parcells drafts have been....and that includes ****ing up with john beck.....but guess what...AT LEAST THEY TOOK A SHOT....at least we know they had him above brady quinn! ..... wel guess what....we didnt have Henne ABOVE matt ryan.....so it was a COMPLETE fail to take Long BEFORE you take your franchise QB.....in addition look at ALL the QBs in that Mueller draft NOBODY was any good.....nobody panned out.....so look at the rest of that draft. Mueller did a better job than these guys
i would agree....but i would also caution that this defense isnt as good as people think it is. we dont have any playmakers besides Wake on the ENTIRE defense. they dont create turnovers and since WE NEVER WORK WITH A CONSIDERABLE LEAD teams are never forced to open up against us....where the defense backs up and gives up some garbage yards etc.....there hasnt been a single game all year like that. so i would say 5th ranked defense is a little bit of an illusion....Mike Nolan has done an absolutely incredible job. what happens if he leaves? does this defense REALLY have that much talent? i dont believe it does. not one playmaker in the secondary (maybe rashad jones who is on the bench) no depth in the secondary at corner.....a hole at middle linebacker still with Crowder....just lacks a couple playmakers....but much improved certainly....did they do as good a job at rebuilding the defense that Jimmy Johnson did in TWO years tho???? NOPE....NOT EVEN CLOSE
Doom and Gloom, The drafts have been pretty solid..We will see how many will last,but the D is def much improved..The influx of young talent has helped.
The only draft pick that made you go WTF was Pat White..
Picking Turner and Hartline early, as most called it reaches was understandable cause we had no decent WR's
Hartline has been pretty good..Turner was a complete bust..You dont expect that from someone who was a 3rd rounder and most thought he was going to be picked in the 4th or 5 round..
All you have to do is look at the 1st pick they've ever made. Im now 100% confident that Long over Ryan was a huge mistake. If it wasn't for Penny being released by the POS Jets we'd probably go 5-11 in 2008 with Josh McClown starting at QB.
#1...Jake Long-a stud but not a franchise QB
#32..Phil Merling UNDERACHIEVER for draft position
#57..Chad Henne...not the answer
#66...Kendall Langford...very good value
#110...Shawn Murphy...excuse me while I vomit into my mouth
#195...Donald Thomas...We hardly knew you...adios
#204...Lex Hilliard...special teams and that's it
#245...Lionel Dotson...3 years...3 games this season...2 tackles...enough said
Langford and Long are the only two quality players in this draft
Coming off a 1-15 season with the #1 pick
we should have done much better with this draft
#25...Vontae Davis...future star but could have had Clay Matthews
#44... Pat White...blown pick is the best that can be said regarding this pick
#61...Sean Smith...another pick that could go either way
#87...Pat Turner...wow, were they wrong
#108...Brian Hartline...our #2 wide out would be a #4 with most teams(decent value)
#161...John Nalbone...An APB is needed to find out where he is playing today
#166...Chris Clemons...has looked good and bad at times,ythe jury is still out on Clemons
#181...Andrew Gardner...another offensive lineman who is gone
#214...JD Folsum...gone bye bye
Second draft by this regime with Davis as a future star
Hartline,Smith,and Clemons decent and the rest are turds
#28...Jared Odrick...may be good but another defensive player while ignoring the offense
#40...Koa Misi...may be good but another defensive player while ignoring the offense
#73...John Jerry...could become another Donald Thomas or....
#119...A.J. Edds...injured but any player who has the potential to get Crowder off the field A++++
#145...Nolan Carroll..who knows what he will turn into
#163...Reshad Jones...same as above
#212...Chris McCoy...bye bye
#252...Austin Spitler...1 tackle in the past 5 games
JUST LOOK AT HOW MANY PLAYMAKERS WE HAVE DRAFTED ON THE OFFENSIVE SIDE OF THE BALL
"Fantastic group" of offensive playmakers drafted by this regime...
As someone who wants Sparano and Henne out I have to say that I really don't think the drafts have been that bad. Compare these drafts to what we had the previous 5 years before Parcells and Ireland. As someone mentioned, the defense has been totally rebuilt. There were a few misses, but if you look at other team's drafts I'm betting that they aren't much better in rounds 4+. We have landed a lot of good players late and as FAs (Wake, Carpenter, Bess, Hartline, Carroll, Jones, Clemons) that have really contributed to the team. Are they all superstars? No. But in past regimes we got nothing of value late.
here is my evaluation
1 1 MIA Jake Long T Great Player
2 32 MIA Phillip Merling DE Not good
2 57 MIA Chad Henne abortion of a player
3 66 MIA Kendall Langford DE good
4 110 MIA Shawn Murphy T not on team
6 176 MIA Jalen Parmele RB sucks
6 195 MIA Donald Thomas G not on team
6 204 MIA Lex Hilliard RB not very good
7 245 MIA Lionel Dotson DT practice squad, not very good
1 25 MIA Vontae Davis DB good
2 44 MIA Pat White QB not on team
2 61 MIA Sean Smith DB good
3 87 MIA Patrick Turner WR not on team
4 108 MIA Brian Hartline WR good
5 161 MIA John Nalbone TE not on team
5 165 MIA Chris Clemons DB too early to tell
6 181 MIA Andrew Gardner T not on team
7 214 MIA J.D. Folsom LB doesn't play
1 28 MIA Jared Odrick DE injured 1st year, 3rd 3-4 DE taken in first 66 picks in last 3 years. They already have Randy Starks.
2 40 MIA Koa Misi LB ok so far. didn't need to use pick if moron ireland didn't trade matt roth for no reason.
3 73 MIA John Jerry T injured/ can't beat out pat ****ing mcquistan
4 119 MIA A.J. Edds LB injured
5 145 MIA Nolan Carroll DB too early
5 163 MIA Reshad Jones DB good special teamer/ fill in
7 212 MIA Chris McCoy DE
7 252 MIA Austin Spitler
Picked up some decent guys overall, but picking up a franchise QB is the most vital aspect for any new regime and unfortunately this regime did not hit on one.
We rebuilt the defense in 3 years . . . Incredible job.
Where we failed was with the OLine picks. The failure on the OLine is even more disappointing than the job done to the defense. Not only dont we have reliable starters . . . we dont have reliable depth. We haven't addressed the RB position . . . we haven't addressed the TE position . . . we look for hailmary's at WR and they don't pan out. Where we truly blew it was in 2009 . . . we should have been able to fix the defense then, instead of drafting 2 projects in the 2nd and 3rd round. Then in 2010 . . . we could have gotten a WR and a RB.
Oh well, it is spilt milk and we gotta move on with a new OC and maybe a new coach.
bess was an undrafted free agent
outstanding analysis of the 2008 draft
Actually, I think they have done a good job in acquiring talent and building a young core. It is too easy to sit and judge missed pick, but the reality is EVERY team misses picks every year in the draft. Also, to only look at the draft with out looking at FA and trades is not understanding the context of building the team. Also, re-signing players from former regimes is important. We are much, much better off with the core intact than what was in place only three years ago.
That's like comparing YOUR MORNING BOWEL MOVEMENT TO YOUR EVENING BOWL MOVEMENT
THEY BOTH STINK
As far as the defense How much was due to the draft
versus free agency
Bell...not drafted by this regime
Crowder...not drafted by this regime
Soliai...not drafted by this regime
Don't say the drafting is good or look at the defense
The defense has 2 players drafted making a difference
LANGFORD AND DAVIS...THE REST CAME BY TRADE,FREE AGENCY,OR WERE HERE
Did this regime rebuild this defense...yes
but not through the draft
I also said you have to compare our drafts to that of other teams. Everyone in this thread is going through our drafts and saying two or three starters from a draft isnt enough. But what have other teams gotten? It could be more, and if so then you can say Ireland and Parcells haven't done a good job drafting. But until you have something to compare it too this is all just an assumption.
We couldn't of had Clay Matthews either. He was taken before we picked.
Davis went 25, Matthews went 26
no that isnt the only pick and while our defense is improved would it be any good if nolan wasnt here? would it be any good if he left? we dont have ANY PLAYMAKERS get it? and while wake was a great find the defenses turnaround this year is largely based on the play of Soliai (who randy mueller drafted btw), wake (who wasnt a "find" by this regime) and Dansby....all they had to do with him is offer the MOST MONEY WHICH THEY DID. so to talk about how the draft has turned around this defense somehow would be completely ridiculous. we HAVE NOT FOUND ONE IMPACT DEFENSIVE PLAYER IN THE DRAFT IN 3 YEARS. NOT ONE. Jimmy Johnson found at LEAST 5 in 2 YEARS for perspective. so give me a break with this bs......and where is the impact on offense???
they HAVE NOT drafted WELL....have they been the worst drafts in the NFL? no....but keep in mind all the additonal picks weve had.....we simply have not come away with as much talent as we should have....havent come away with PLAYMAKERS....IMPACT players the way we should have
so weve had 26 picks in 3 drafts that we were only ASSIGNED 21 draft picks... the additional picks mostly coming from Randy Muellers attempt at acquiring additonal picks and trading talent this regime inherited. so 26 picks including what amounts to 4 first rounders and 4 second rounders and weve had all of our 3rd and 4th round picks AND we picked first overall one year. in other words our drafts as a whole have been very top heavy and included an abundance of picks.
and we are left with 4 "good" players and 1 "great" player and a player who didnt need to be drafted because we cut matt roth for no reason. and this is ACCURATE i would agree with you nopoker as did another poster.
and even 2 of the "good" players are somewhat debatable smith was a second rounder cant catch a pass to save his life and got beat out by Jason Allen of all people who is BEYOND terrible. and Hartline who really is a 4th wide-out (or should be)....and the "great" player might have been the biggest mistake these guys EVER made in ANY of their picks cause they passed a franchise qb the only chance they had to get one.
this is roughly a 20% success rate and they have found absolutely ZERO guys that win ballgames. Jimmy by comparision found at least 4 in the same amount of time. there is no way to justify these drafts somehow and say these guys are doing a good job at bringing young sustainable talent to Miami. its just not happening any way u cut it. and i cant stress this enough ZERO PLAYMAKERS ON EITHER SIDE OF THE BALL. ZERO. ZERO. get it? ZERO in three years.
you WIN in the NFL with GUYS THAT MAKE PLAYS. there is ABSOLUTELY no way to dispute this. and we have found NONE
When you started talking about Ginn, I lost all respect for your knowledge of the game and players. Ginn was nothing but speed. It takes more than that to make it in the NFL. Sorry, don't mean to be mean, but Ginn sucks and shouldn't even be mentioned.
well then you dont have a clue dude in limited action returning kicks and punts hes taken at least 7 to the house in what amounts to by my estimation less than 2 full years of return duty. several of them were called back.....three of them on terrible holding calls on miami that didnt affect the play ie he was already ten yards BEYOND where the call was made or there wasnt holing to begin with.
sorry dude ANYBODY that cant take that many returns and change field postion that quickly in that short a period of time IS A PLAYER
stop being clouded by your faulty expectations based on the fact you wanted brady quinn (who blows by the way) dude.
I'm sorry -- but why are we even evaluating players drafted in 6th and 7th rounds? Most don't pan out, regardless of the team. And please, don't reply back with the anomalies (Colston, etc) who DID pan out.
Here's my opinion:
They drafted arguably the best LT in the game.
They drafted arguably the most underrated corner in the game.
They drafted a cornerback who, if he could catch the ball, would have at least 5 interceptions so far this year.
I could keep going.
And for those who favor Clay Matthews over Vontae, please remember that the Dolphins had already signed Cameron Wake for as the rush linebacker. Cornerback was definitely a more needed position at the time.
Here are the only *stupid* picks they have made over the last 3 years:
Do I really need to spend my night proving to those who do not look beyond their team that EVERY team gets a bust or two in their drafts? Look at Jerry Hughes with the Colts this year. How about the myriad of 2nd round picks over the last couple of years who have been released or traded for nothing?
Sorry, but I can't help myself here:
Compare to Pats drafts then
Truthfully, NE's FA are better than the folks we drafted.
They are unfortunately smarter where it counts...MGT.
I would be willing to wager there are 10 teams that, if considered with an unbiased mind, have done far better than us.
Personally, the Long over Ryan is Parcell's legacy. If you have no breakaway Rb or franchise QB, what the heck difference does it make to have a stud O-Lineman?
It's been shown that an average line will block like madmen for a stud RB that rewards them for opening a whole, and a QB that gets rid of it successfully more often than not.
I ran a poll on a Herald forum asking who we should draft with our overall #1, and a HUGE majority (many of you folks, I'm sure..LOL) voted Long.
Does anyone seriously think the "Hogs" of Redskins fame would be as celebrated if they weren't blocking for the likes of Riggins, Theisman, and such. I'll readily admit it's a 2 way street, and neither Riggins nor Joe would have been as good without that huge O-Line.
The Dolphins have been cursed for a decade, due to the lack of a 1st class GM.
Till we get that problem ameliorated, I'm afraid it will be more of the same.
Just my thoughts. BTW, I miss this place, and with the Herald forums now such a mess, I hope to contribute (and learn) a bit more around here.
Merry Christmas to all.
Just for a point of reference, this is the last 3 years for the Jets. I'm not going to include players traded for using picks, etc etc. It's a simple (who did they draft) comparison:
2008 - Vernon Gholston (1st round) - BEST PLAYER EVER! (bust) (stats: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=11240)
2008 - Dustin Keller (trade-up) (1st round) - Jets gave up 2nd and 4th round for this pick. Has played pretty well. (stats: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=11264)
2008 - Dwight Lowery (4th round) - Still on the team, but about what you would expect from a 4th rounder. 5 career picks. Backup to Cromartie (stats: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=11347)
2008 - Erik Ainge (5th round) - Not even worth looking up.
2008 - Marcus Henry (5th round) - I don't even think he has recorded an NFL catch.
2008 - Nate Garner (7th round) - I think we know about him...
2009 - Mark Sanchez (trade-up) (1st round) - We know about Sanchez. Traded for 1st and 2nd and three players. I'd argue Sanchez hasn't lived up to his draft ranking so far. (stats: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=12482)
2009 - Shonn Greene (3rd round) - He plays, but hasn't lit it up at all.
2009 - Matt Slauson (6th round) - Starting guard.
2010 - Kyle Wilson (1st round) - Special Teams for the most part. 3rd string CB.
2010 - Vladimir Ducasse (2nd round) - Backup to Slauson
2010 - Joe McKnight (4th round) - 3rd string
2010 - John Conner (5th round) - Backup FB.
Now that we have some perspective, outside of the horrible Pat White choice (and maybe 2 others) ... have the Dolphins really done THAT bad?
I got ripped when I said before that their picks are "average at best." Now that the bloom is off the rose for this FO...it is obvious that they are nothing special and may have pretty much blown the most important pick for the Dolphins ever...
You can tell what side ur on just by reading ur post. Can someone post a open minded look at out drafts along with the hit and misses by teams who drafted around us. Also chris clemons is a legit fs something we have not had in awhile.
5 star players - Jake Long
4 star players - Vontae Davis, Dan Carpenter, Davone Bess and Kendall Langford
3 star players - Sean Smith, Chris Clemons, Koa Misi and Brian Hartline
Busts - Patrick Turner, Pat White, and Shawn Murphy
That is pretty solid in my book, I mean whatever about Bess and Carpenter not being drafted...at least they brought them here as UDFA. I wish we had hit on better in the second round, but we have drafted solid.
why not include Bess and Carpenter? they were both signed hours after the draft based on the same scouting reports as the draft itself. there are many talented players that don't get drafted and credit should go the front office for finding them. where would we be without Bess and Carpenter?
Where would we be without Carpenter? The same ****ing place we are now, He is a ****ing kicker.
Wow... did all you guys start watching football in 2008?
How any fan of the Miami Dolphins (with their previous draft history) can sit and complain about the last three drafts is totally beyond me. I'm trying to make allowances for hurt feelings, and "heat of the moment" critics.... but just wow.
and with the 2010 Dolphins that makes him the offensive MVP
You can not say that their drafting is good just because the previous people did even worse. These guys are average...the previous people sucked...
parcell's legacy will be that he passed on matt ryan
...to take an offensive tackle that is consider one of the 3 best in the game in his 3rd season. it is not like he passed on barry sanders for tony mandrich. you act like we took vernon gholston with the pick
The great thing about those Redskins' offenses is they had a power running game combined with great speed at the receiver positions...
Not a bunch of 'possession' guys who shorten the field.
The Redskins were so potent on offense because they had so many fast receivers to stretch the field opening up their already potent running game., and vice-versa.
For all you clowns that state our drafts are soooooooo bad then let's compare to the great NE Patriots....
1. J.Mayo lb -really good
1. forfeit for cheating
2. T.Wheatly CB -not on roster
3. S.Crable OLB -not on roster
3. K.OConnell QB -not on roster
4. J.White CB -nobody
5. M.Slater WR - back up
6. B.Ruud LB - not on roster
2. P.Chung CB - real good
2. R.Brace NT - worse then Merling, can't get on game day roster
2. D.Butler CB - no better then a back up
2. S.Vollmer OT - good OT
3. B.Tate WR - Hartline wash
3. T.McKenzie OLB -not on roster
4. R.Ohumberger OG -ho hum
5. G.Bussy OG - not on roster
6. J.Ingram LS -not on roster
6. M.Pryor DT -no better then our late picks
7. J.Edelman WR - nice 4th receiver
7. D.Richard DT - ho hum
1. D.McCourty CB - good but no V.Davis
2. R.Gronkowski TE - nice pick up
2. B.Spikes ILB - average player suspended for steriods
3. T.Price WR - wallace/moore
4. A.Herandez TE -could be good
5. Z.Mesko P - punter really????
6. T.Larsen C - not on roster
7. T.Welch OT - not on roster
7. B.Deadrick DT - who????
7. K.Weston DT - ho hum
So 2008 brought in 1 starter and 1 back up out of 7 picks and 4 draft picks not on the roster including a 2nd and 2 3rds!!! Wow what a great draft, lol!!!!! All players selected are skilled positions and they missed badly.
2009 brought 2 starters and 4 back ups out of 12 picks, only 2 picks are really any good in Chung and Vollmer the rest are no better then what we have drafted or picked up as a udfa. 7 picks went to the trenches with only 1 starting and the other 6 are on the team but not on the game roster!
2010 brought 3 starters and 1 back up out of 10 picks, this is their best draft in a long time with McCourty, Gronkowski, Hernandez. Spikes starts but as far as I'm concerned is garbage, he's now suspened for 4 games for illegal substance use. 4 more trench players and only two still on the team but not on the game day roster.
They drafted in 3 years 11 "corn fed" lineman and managed 1 starter and nobody else even can make the game day roster and 4 of them are no longer on the team!!!!!
So in 3 drafts they completely whiffed on two 2nd rounders that are not even on the team any more, four 3rd rounders with 3 of them not even on the team.
Compare that to us missing on P.White and you can argue P.Merling but atleast he is a regular rotaional player on a excellent D.Line. J.Odrick was playing really well until his injury. P.Turner was another miss and J.Jerry is fighting back and fourth in the starting lineup. But only 1 player is not on the roster from our top three rounds compared to 5 for NE. Even our late round picks have had a greater impact and hold a tonne more promise in Clemons, Jones, Hartline, Edds and Carol.
NE has plenty more draft picks but have missed way more then hit, they drafted way more "corn fed" lineman and missed plenty more. They also have drafted 5 CB's getting 2 starters and 1 backup compared to our 5 picks with 3 starters and 2 back ups!!!!!! V.Davis is by far superior to Chung or McCourtey.
So cry all you want but we have actually drafted a lot better then NE with less picks in the most important rounds of 1-3, NE 14 to our 11.
lol. it is easier to draft a player that will start on a terrible team than it is to draft a player that will start on an elite team.
Hey Parcells did what he wanted...
Rebuilt your defense and left with the money before his real flaw (trying to fix an offense) was exposed.
By your logic there are 21 teams then that have done worse than us... That would mean that FO did pretty well. I don't agree with that but again, using your logic here...
Remember...the Dolphins passed on Dez Bryant for Odrick and Misi...a clear mistake IMO. You simply don't pass on play makers in the draft to fill needs.
Best summery of our failures I have ever read, You hit the nail on the head with every point.
We currently have 11 starters from our last 3 drafts, and that includes UFA's. Getting 11 starters out of 3 drafts is pretty good imo, and I'm not even counting people who started previously, like Donald Thomas and Philip Merling. I like the way this regime drafts, drafting for character and leadership. Every team out there misses on draft picks, and I think if any of you did your research, you will find that they miss a lot more than our regime does.