We saw it... now, can the "pistol" be effective ?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by JT-forpresident, Nov 9, 2009.

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Can the "pistol" be effective ?

  1. Yes

    46 vote(s)
    49.5%
  2. No

    13 vote(s)
    14.0%
  3. Maybe

    24 vote(s)
    25.8%
  4. Pistol ? what is this, an NRA message board ?

    10 vote(s)
    10.8%
  1. JT-forpresident

    JT-forpresident Believe In Miami

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    Can the "pistol" offence be effective ?

    Everyone waited for Pat White to come out and shine one time this year... the fins chose the new england game to unveil their new formation with White: the pistol

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol_offense


    Many of you have seen it in college, with florida, nevada, and others running it very often and being succesful...

    For those who don't have a clue what i'm talking about, the pistol is the shotgun formation where the QB is slightly closer to the center, the full back is next to the QB and the running back is behind the QB.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSjeo3CixOY

    So basically, this is an Offset I formation with the QB getting a shotgun snap. (well, that's how we run it ... you can take out the fullback and add a third receiver, or take our your TE for an extra receiver, etc etc... but for now our package is as mentionned, an offset I with a tight end and two receivers)


    White wasn't exceptional sunday, neither was the pistol, but they both had their moments. When we drafted white, i knew anything from an option-based scheme would be implemented and ran by white, it was simply a matter of time. Well, the time has come. I don't know how effective it can be, but here are some "indicators":

    1- pat white is an ace when it comes to running option schemes, he understands them perfectly
    2- pat white has speed, and he's not scared to lower the shoulder
    3- you can't blitz the pistol like you can blitz the wildcat, it's a completely different animal
    4- there's blueprint for success with the pistol when you watch some ncaa teams
    5- the pistol offence is a way to keep a QB in the shotgun where it's easier to throw, while maintaining an effective power running game ... this is something that rhymes with the miami dolphins if you ask me...

    the main key IMO to the devellopment of the Pistol, is pat white's ability to throw... if he proves he can hurt defenses and make them respect the passing game, this could be a very, VERY, effective formation.
     
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  2. LVFinsFan

    LVFinsFan Scout Team

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    Pat White looked so scared when he ran for like 20 yards. Did you see his face?

    When pat white is in it really seems like whatever play he runs it develops slowwwwwwwlllyyy.
     
  3. cowboy82nd

    cowboy82nd Starter

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    Call me old fashion, but I like to have one quarterback run the show. Whether it be Pat Whiter or Chad Henne, I like one quarterback to stay in the game and have a rhythm or a flow going. If we are going to use the "Pistol" let's keep White in the whole game then. I think it disrupts the flow of the offense with different quarterbacks coming in and out. JMO.
     
  4. Buff

    Buff From a galaxy far far away.... Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Pat White is a bust. I am sorry if anyone is offended by this startling fact, but he was drafted for the wildcat, and has done nothing to improve the team.
     
  5. JT-forpresident

    JT-forpresident Believe In Miami

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    i think it's moreso because white is making reads... when you run an option play, going fast is important but the most important thing to do for white is read the play correctly, to make sure the right guy has the ball in his hands at the end of the play, for the most yardage...

    the first thing is reading the EMOL (end man on the line), and then he has to make sure his option back isn't covered when he wants to pitch it...

    go back and watch some highlights of white in college, all the big runs he had coming out of an option play is attributed to two reasons:
    1- he makes a good read when he keeps the ball
    2- once he hits the line of scrimmage, he squares his shoulders and turns on the jets (that's EXACTLY how he managed that big run against the pats sunday)

    if he can't do those on a constant basis from now on, i think it'll be fair to say he's a bust because that's what we want him to do... we want those big chunks of yardage and if his speed isn't good enough in the NFL, he'll be useless to us (IMO)

    but i'm confident we can do something with the pistol and white ..
     
  6. JT-forpresident

    JT-forpresident Believe In Miami

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    i understand this.. a lot of people aren't too fond of taking henne off the field that often...

    but consider this, if we use the same ammount of snaps with the pistol and the wildcat (counted together) than we usually do with the wildcat alone... what's the difference really ?
     
  7. sharp

    sharp Scout Team

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    Pat White is a hell of a runner, I thought he was going to house that run. Looked just like the WVU days out there.
     
  8. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit A True Fan

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    How about we install the Saints offense instead of the wild cat, pistol, etc?
     
  9. LVFinsFan

    LVFinsFan Scout Team

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    Looked at it again, and youre right.

    Oops.:crazy:
     
  10. CDNPHIN

    CDNPHIN HOME OF THE 1st PLACE LEAFS.

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    wasted Pick!
     
  11. JT-forpresident

    JT-forpresident Believe In Miami

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    well, some teams have pat white/chad henne, others have drew brees :rolleyes2:

    some teams have sean payton calling the plays, others have dan henning... (much respect to henning, but payton is probably the most knowledgable offensive coordinator and play-caller in the nfl right now)
     
  12. Daytona Fin

    Daytona Fin Playoffs Moderator Finheaven VIP

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    when i read this thread i thought it meant parcells had a gun and was going to start taking out players like ginn, bell, wilson, bess, porter. damn i was wrong. oh well.guess we will have to wait till he breaks out the axe in the off season
     
  13. FinsGonnaRock06

    FinsGonnaRock06 A True Fan

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    the big problem with all this Gadgetry with White is it will all fail, if he cant throw the Ball to WITHIN 10 YDS of the nearest receiver, my GOD his pass attempts are nowhere CLOSE to ANYBODY, Ronnie Brown looks more the part as QB than White does.
     
  14. JT-forpresident

    JT-forpresident Believe In Miami

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    LMAO i didn't think about that... the thread title can be a little misleading i guess :lol:

    EDIT: changed it
     
  15. 3rdandinches

    3rdandinches Seasoned Veteran

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    So far P.White has had a little impact on 1 maybe 2 plays a game, I think it's a nice idea but man could we use help at OLB, ILB, WR, TE how many other guys would have been alot more effective at that pick.

    Not bangin' on White, I'm just not a fan of a picked player that has so little impact for the positive and takes our young excellent QB off the field.

    White's a luxury NE, Indy etc could have but choose not to take their QB off the field though.
     
  16. JT-forpresident

    JT-forpresident Believe In Miami

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    i agree with you, right now some other guys like massaquoi, clint sintim, would look nice... (just to name a few)

    but i think the idea behind the pat white pick was to get a playmaker, to get a guy who will get those big chunks of yardage... we know he's a hit or miss type of guy, he'll gain 1 yard or 20/30/40... so far, it's been more of a 1 yard gains type of deal lol but they couldn't foresee it...

    you also have to take in consideration that this pistol offence has just been brought in, i say give it some time, but on the other side i understand the fans' frustration/impatience/disagreement
     
  17. Wildbill3

    Wildbill3 Misery Loves Company Administrator Finheaven VIP

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    if we could get ginn to take a hit like pat we'd have a WR.
     
  18. phintim

    phintim Seasoned Veteran

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    Well first I was convinced that Pat White was playing a bit scared and now I am convince that he just has a scared look about him because he has looked the same way every game. I agree he has not paid the dividends as a early 2nd round pick that so many on this forum expect. Of course Roth and Merling very hyped 2nd round picks have not just lighted it up either. I also agree White needs to show us more and until the passing starts to develop its hard to pass judgement IMO. This time next year I will be inclined to label him a wasted pick if things are not picking up but right now is way to early. These guys are changing his throwing motion and that takes at least a year to develop IMO so I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt. Plus our front office has been delivering on the draft picks compared to anything I have seen from and any and all other dolphin coaching staffs including Shula so I have a reason to be optomistic. They have even developed other coaching staffs mistakes. Roth last year and Jason Allen even looked fairly decent yesterday subbing for Davis. This scheme will be dangerous once and if White can throw the ball.
     
  19. skipp2myloo13

    skipp2myloo13 Rookie

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    Merling not lighting it up. He has looked very good this year imo
     
  20. JT-forpresident

    JT-forpresident Believe In Miami

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    true that... for a little guy, pat white sure is confident lowering the shoulder and taking the hit... i guess that's what 4 years of option running in college does to you ! heh !
     
  21. bigchub22

    bigchub22 Starter

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    I voted maybe...cause I just haven't seen enough of it at this level...My college squad runs it so I do see it a lot at that level. I personally think what I saw out of PW was promising yesterday
     
  22. CedarPhin

    CedarPhin Finheaven Hall of Shame

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    If we're really going to utilize the pistol...draft that Kaepernick kid from UNR.
     
  23. JT-forpresident

    JT-forpresident Believe In Miami

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    the hell with it, draft tebow ... :rolleyes2: :lol:
     
  24. next-year

    next-year MostHated

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    i think he will be a dangerous player once he gets acclimated to this level of play. in the open feild the lines he takes are phenominal his awareness is increadible. we jsut need to let the coaches figure out the best way get him comfortable and playing with instincts. to me it looks like he has pretty much pre decided that he is handing the ball off before the snap rather than running the option, in wvu he knew he was the decision maker and he was gonna make a big play when he took the ball and the continuity he had with slaton knowing his abilities in certain situations. anyone who got to watch them play together got to see them work magic. soon he will be good he jsut has too much talent not to along with being a flat out winner i think he will be a big time playmaker for us in the future
     
  25. R_t_Kraken

    R_t_Kraken A True Fan

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    White can be effective but that comes at a price, much like the wildcat. You have to take the starting QB out of the game, thus taking him out of rhythm with the offense. Me personally, I don't like that trade off. That doesn't mean Pat White can't be productive, but I don't think it's even worth it.

    Now if the question is, is White worth a second round pick, no. I think anybody you pick in the first day should be a prospect to be a good to great starter. I doubt Pat White will ever start at any position so I maintain it was a bad pick.
     
  26. cowboy82nd

    cowboy82nd Starter

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    Well, the last three years we took a quarterback in the second round so why not again this year. Tebow should still be around in the second.
     
  27. houtz

    houtz Pay the man!

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    If Ginn makes that block on the safety White is in for a Touchdown.

    I think it can be effective and I'd like to see more of it. Calling Pat White a bust after his limited playing time is ignorant.
     
  28. cowboy82nd

    cowboy82nd Starter

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    I'm kidding about the above post.
     
  29. flynryan15

    flynryan15 A True Fan Donator

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    There is a lot more success to come out of this formation with Pat White. His long run is the tip of the ice, the only reason he didn't take it to the house is because Ginn and Grove were in his cut back lanes. My problem is more how they use him and when they passed out of the formation it was very obvious. Anyone who wants to rip on his accuracy on that pass, needs to watch the film again both of our tackle wiffed on blocks and he was sandwiched well he threw. He was throwing the ball away. That said they need to keep a back in the back field with him when throwing the ball other wise it gives a way the play. Yeah he over threw Ginn against Atlanta, but how many rookie QBs get thrown into a game in the second qt and hit a bomb. It is a low percentage pass for a starting qb.

    Bottom line is our base offense and wildcat was not moving the ball against New England. Mainly because they were facing 9 and 10 in the box. we switched it up got several mismatches and created several big plays to get a touchdown. The reason it got stopped in the second half is we ran the same 2 plays out of it. Now I would look for him to fake the run out of the pistol, drop back and throw deep. This is a very good option out of the formation becasue the defense has to go to man with the wide outs so they can spy the rb and qb out of the back field.

    One more thing can we please put the Massaqui crap to bed. His hands make Ginns look soft, he makes no effort to tackle the db after he fumbles or is intercepted in coverage. Lots of bad coming out of Cleveland about this guy his attitude and work ethic.
     
  30. JT-forpresident

    JT-forpresident Believe In Miami

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    gotta agree with most of what you said...

    i really liked massaquoi coming out of college, and i still wish we would've drafted him, but hey everyone is entitled to his opinion
     
  31. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Awe "Tight End" my favorite position!

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    I am a Wolf Pack alumni and live in Reno. The pistol is extremely effective and Kaepernick is something else. He would do better than White.
     
  32. JT-forpresident

    JT-forpresident Believe In Miami

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    Haven't watched much of this team, i just know they abundantly use the pistol (my prep school coach implemented the wolf pack pistol offence so that's how i know about them...)

    but we have a QB on the team who could very easily run the pistol, and his name is tyler thigpen... he is familiar with the spread offence (although it's different, some concepts are similar about the pistol). On a sidenote i think that may be why we traded for thigpen... the guy can back up henne and i think he can also back up white in some specific packages ... we haven't seen him hit the field but believe me he's a valuable asset, being able to back up both QB who run different offences


    EDIT: even more conclusive, i just found out that the chiefs implemented the pistol in KC when thigpen was there... they didn't ran it full time, but he has taken snaps out of it
     
  33. flynryan15

    flynryan15 A True Fan Donator

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    Guys you can't be telling us to be patient with Henne and then bash Pat White. That is speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Look at it this way as the season is progressing we are seeing more of a threat and production out of the plays White is used. This is a good thing for us as DOLPHIN fans! I was on record questioning a lot of things about Henne from what I saw in college, but the minute he became a starter I said I will support him until he proves he can't do it.

    Pat White is a rookie QB, who is being ask to go in mid game with limited practice time and make a difference. The fact that he is now starting to make a impact warrants some respect for him from this fan base. GIVE THE ROOKIE A BREAK! Come on guys defenses are now preparing for a lot more schemes thanks to what he did in New England.
     
  34. JT-forpresident

    JT-forpresident Believe In Miami

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    couldn't agree more...

    and, if people think it's hard for henne to get in rhytmn, imagine pat white... the guy comes in for 10 snaps a game, rhytmn ? i don't think he even understands this word anymore.
     
  35. FinNutZ

    FinNutZ Well-Known Member

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    Pat White needs to bulk up at least 30 pounds or he is going to die next time he runs out like that, Pat White needs to calm down and follow thru hes passes before he gets int for a TD, but overall he is a rookie after all, hell of a job for the little things he has done this year, not much more expected from him, at least on my sideline.
     
  36. flynryan15

    flynryan15 A True Fan Donator

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    I played Qb in college for a DII school, my first game as a freshman I was ask to come off the bench and throw one deep to spark the offense. We were playing a D1aa school. To say the least it was very intense, the speed things happened at as opposed to practice was amazing. Letting Henne take a few plays off isn't a bad thing, it is letting him take a look at the defense. I know he did this before he was a starter, but it is much different after you are playing. Not to mention Henne has been throwing around 30 times the last few starts that is way to much for his progression right now.

    The pistol change of pace with White backed up the defense and helped Henne out.
     
  37. flynryan15

    flynryan15 A True Fan Donator

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    Putting 30lbs on White will take away from what he does best.
     
  38. FinNutZ

    FinNutZ Well-Known Member

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    I really dont think he will lose that much speed 20-30 pounds extra the guys 6'0ft tall 215 would not make him a couch potato, hes 180! Sproles is 180 and what hes 5'6, What good does it do for you to have a running QB that might get killed or injured or fumble running the ball. But then again Hes nothing but a QB he shouldnt be out there running out there, Wildcat or not.
     
  39. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I really liked what I saw from White and the formation. Before we implemented it Sunday, our Offense wasn't doing anything. White will obviously have to pass from the formation for it to be successful, but I think he's a capable passer. He just needs some realistic opportunities.
     
  40. MP-Omnis

    MP-Omnis Larry King, Antique Bandwagon

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    Yeah, he should've kept on going instead of cutting to the inside like he did before gettin stopped.

    I hope he beefs up during the offseason and starts working QB/RB hybrid drills with Ronnie.

    I have a feeling that NFL D.Co'ds will just spread LBs to the outsides of the box to stop this formation. How effectively can a team run dives or other plays between the tackles from this set?
     
  41. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Florida runs dives very well from the Pistol. Tebow's first game back from the concussion, Florida ran the dive almost exclusively, and it worked.
     
  42. JT-forpresident

    JT-forpresident Believe In Miami

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    Power running out of the pistol is not a problem at all, i'd say there's one big pro and one big con.

    since the distance between the QB and the RB is very shorter, the exchange between both takes less time by far.

    Pro: it's harder to react for linebackers, because it's a shotgun snap, white is right in position to throw a quick slant or a hook route to the TE ... and the other hard thing to react to is the running back gets the ball in his hands a lot quicker than in a conventional I formation

    Con: really hard to run misdirection plays out of the pistol... the way to keep defenders honest is faking runs and such, running the option, while out of the I, the best way to keep backside defenders honest is by running misdirection plays. Why is it a con ? because we've had MUCH success with those, and to get away from them is not a good thing IMO. But lately, our rushing attack has struggled so it might not be too farfetched to try and mix things up
     
  43. Despacio

    Despacio Pro Bowler

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    I think he disrupts a promising young QB's growth and rythm, and all for little results. We don't have time to play around anymore, it's time to a take a stand and roll in the Win column. Let Henne take command of this team because you know it has to bother him.
     
  44. flynryan15

    flynryan15 A True Fan Donator

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    Look at it this way, that disruption resulted in mass confusion to New England's defense that resulted in a TD drive. We hadn't done that to that point. Right now no vertical threat and a rash of drops is hurting Henne's progression. The change of pace with the wildcat and pistol is the only thing we have that is remotely keeping the defenses honest. Even the crap Bucs have a good enough secondary to go man with our receivers and come after Henne. We will have to do things to keep them honest.
     
  45. luduporcu

    luduporcu A True Fan

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    I think that THIGPEN should start filling PENNY's role in the WILDCAT as soon as he develops some timing w/our WRs and TEs. But the REAL test won't come/show much at all, until THIGPEN and WHITE get to try RW's role in the WILDCAT, and transform that role into a "pass/run option"...AND until both THIGPEN and WHITE are 100% at home with the "shotgun" as a "pass/run option" formation as well . That means that they must develop QB/WR "chemistry", and "chemistry" takes much more time.
     
  46. JT-forpresident

    JT-forpresident Believe In Miami

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    that, and another thing that's not helping henne at all is getting hit like he is...

    imagine if we took out the wildcat, pistol, and every other fancy formation we have out of our playbook !... henne would go down with an injury as soon as next week, because he'd have to do something extra to generate points and he would just take more sacks/hits, i can guarantee you that

    henne is ready to play in the nfl, it's the guys around him that aren't (especially at WR and some big question marks at TE. The oline is also fairly young or inexperienced) so give this offence some time, let the production come from wherever it can, and keep our henne injury free ... it sounds good to me
     
  47. flynryan15

    flynryan15 A True Fan Donator

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    Those hits go right to not having a vertical passing threat or dominate receiver. No body draws a double coverage makes it real easy to blitz and blitz multiple players. One thing I have notice when we do have Ginn in the game and our attempting to stretch the field, he is always lined up on Henne's left. Well when the defenses bring the heat Henne stays focused to the right or his front side. Happened a few times in the New England game and the second Jets game. Two ways to solve this presnap read and see you have single coverage with no safety, take your drop and launch it deep throwing to a spot. Or get Ginn on the front side of Henne's vision until you are able to back the defense off. Once again not defending Ginn just trying to find away to use him to our advantage.
     
  48. jtoomuch

    jtoomuch Apalled and aghast Donator

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    He should have rhythm.
     
  49. catapano

    catapano get out da way

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    very interesting but whos gonna catch the ball once he starts throwing well?
     
  50. flynryan15

    flynryan15 A True Fan Donator

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    Can you steal those claws from the guy in your Avatar? We could paint them like gloves and then maybe Teddy Bear can stab the ball.
     

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