Without Tannehill, We'd be the Browns (In-depth research)

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Aqua4Ever04, Jan 10, 2018.

  1. Spiff

    Spiff Starter Finheaven VIP Donator

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    You're right. 2 out of 219 QBs in 18 years. You'd have to pick a QB 100 years in a row to find one that makes you a perennial playoff team. Good luck with that.

    We have never finished a season worse than 2017 with Ryan Tannehill at QB. The worst such season was in 2015 when we went 6-10. Also, in an earlier post you said in his rookie season we finished 6-10 which is not true either. It was 7-9.
     
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  2. Spiff

    Spiff Starter Finheaven VIP Donator

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  3. Ilovemyfins4eva

    Ilovemyfins4eva A True Fan Donator

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    u r right in terms of record, thank u for correcting me. In terms of the ppg though, which is what the op argument was about, basically pointing how pathetic our offense was with cutler this year( and hes right about that) but as i pointed out, in 4 of the 5 seasons with tannehill we finished in the bottom half of the league in scoring, and 3 of the 5 seasons we finished 27th in scoring in 2012, 26th in 2013, and 27th in 2015 with tannehill all toward the very bottom.

    basically putting tannehill in there does not turn the dolphins from laughing stock offensively to a high powered offense.

    even last year, in the year many ppl on here like to act as if tannehill played at this extremely high level, with him we were ranked 19th in the league in ppg, which is still below average.
     
  4. miami365

    miami365 Rookie

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    Considering we were last in offensive plays 19th in ppg is pretty good and if I remember rightly we were right up there in redzone efficiency as well. Points per play if available would definitely be a more relevant statistic.

    Either way the Tannehill we'd seen last season was leaps and bounds better than in any of his previous years. Kdawg said it all better than I ever could in the other thread but his improved footwork, pocket presence, playmaking, and willingness to create plays with his feet was a joy to watch.

    That pass rolling to his left to Gray in the Pittsburgh game is about as difficult a throw a quarterback can make. Barring any injury setback there's plenty to be optimistic about going forward given the trash QB play this year. How we started the year 4-2 with the offense providing zilch is incredible.
     
  5. superphin

    superphin Starter Finheaven VIP

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    We were 15th in 3rd down conversion, and 15th in RZ offense. We were also 25th with only 30% of our drives ending in scores, 31st in overall 1st downs, and 28th 1st downs by passing. Man how did we win 10 games?
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018 at 12:49 PM
  6. superphin

    superphin Starter Finheaven VIP

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    This is what it's like to be the Browns.

     
  7. Aqua4Ever04

    Aqua4Ever04 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    The more I dive into this Tannehill project (and really, it's becoming a general offense project), the more I notice things that work and things that don't. Consider it self-scouting. I imagine this is what Gase did when he first got here. Let's watch every throw the QB made, and let's call more plays from the ones he was successful with.

    It's so god damn clear that this guy is not just good, but an EXCELLENT, perhaps the very best in football, throwing from play action.

    In addition, he really utilized Charles Clay and Dion Sims up the seam extremely well. This was a big part of our red zone attack, as well as picking up chunk plays between the 20's. He throws an exceptional ball between that S/LB bracket up the hash (or up the #s when its a WR split). He can put the ball right up top of the LBs head and give his guy a chance to make a play. He throws Clay open every other week on these routes it seems like.


    Those tiered reads where the field is cut in half with a flat option, intermediate option and deep option is so damn efficient. This type of play:



    This is a basic example, but it's redundant. Our success rate is so high. And even when you want to keep him in the pocket, the play-action game that displaces the LBs even slightly has such a profound impact. It puts his feet in a good position. I don't know, but he seems to play in better rhythm from PA. The footwork, the top of the drop to the climb, everything looks cleaner.

    I'm glad we have Adam Gase. I trust him to make these types of observations. Philbin never did. But Gase does, and we saw that in 2016.
     
  8. Aqua4Ever04

    Aqua4Ever04 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    It's not about being an apologist, it's about having the brain capacity to figure out WHY things are the way they are. Any mouth-breathing moron can tell you what the results are. I want to know WHY the results are what they are.

    So you can sit there spouting off irrelevant facts like win-loss total, I'll continue the self-scouting process.
     
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  9. DolfanISS

    DolfanISS Perennial All-Pro Finheaven VIP

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    First off I'm a Tannehill supporter and don't want to waste a high pick on a QB. The more I hear about this class the more I realize nobody is beating out a healthy Tannehill and a successful healthy Tannehill could play so long that by the time he's ready to be replaced the guys we waste the 11th pick on would be 30 years old. But enough on that. In this play there's a deeper guy who's wide open, why not go there. Is this just his progression and would a better QB ignore it and see the deeper guy?
     
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  10. Ilovemyfins4eva

    Ilovemyfins4eva A True Fan Donator

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    the results are what they are, because miami lacks a top guy at the most important position in the sport, and arguably the most important position in all of sports. i dont need any tape to know that, i watch , i don't need stats either, the only thing the ppg showed me is that i am not crazy, and that our offense has been **** with tannehill for most of his career.

    you and all the other apologists can continue to make excuses for this guy, and luckily for you, you will get tannehill this season, but as someone who wants to enjoy dolphins football again after 20 plus years of ineptitude, i want a true qb, not one who needs top talent at every position to be competent.
     
  11. Aqua4Ever04

    Aqua4Ever04 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    He could've taken that option, but it was 3rd and 2, and that throw is a LOT lower percentage. He'd have to whip his hips open to generate the velocity needed so that it doesn't hang up there, and allow the boundary corner to peel off, or the underneath safety to peel back.

    You're right, he is open, but I think the first read is Landry for the first down, and we got it. You'll take that every day.
     
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  12. Aqua4Ever04

    Aqua4Ever04 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    L! O! L!

    Hey, if you insist on living in fantasy land, that's your prerogative.
     
  13. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    As he said it’s a half field tiered read sticks concept. Look to the sticks look to the deep route last that’s why it breaks last.

    If the sticks are there you take it. If he didn’t like juice he had the intermediate crosser and the late breaking deeper route

    That action across the formation is designed to get juice released to the flat sticks

    That kind of stuff Landry is excellent at and you are gonna miss like hell without him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018 at 12:12 PM
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  14. Ilovemyfins4eva

    Ilovemyfins4eva A True Fan Donator

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    im not the one living in fantasy land. our offensive output, with the exception of 1 year ( under the absolutely awful worst coach in nfl history joe philbin) has been below average.

    this is a results business, as long as our offense continues to not put pts on scoreboard on a consistent basis, this team wont go anywhere.

    what makes u feel good though.
     
  15. Fins1971

    Fins1971 C'mon Dolphins

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    This is a pretty interesting stat. Tannehill has started 77 games for the Dolphins. His starting record is 37-40. He has led his team to 1604 points in those 77 games. 20.8 points per game.

    If you take the most recent 77 regular season starts not started by Ryan (08-11,16,17) and make a comparison here is what you find.

    P10, Henne, Moore, Cutler combined for the following

    Starting record 37-40. Identical. Those teams scored 1550 points (20.1 points per game) Pretty close to identical.

    So the first round QB really hasn't changed a thing for this franchise. Same offensive output, Same record. I expected more. I haven't given up but it is time for Tannehill to start making a difference for this team. 77 games of stats show that he hasn't.
     
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  16. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    Op may disagree with me there on what the secondary progression is there but you don’t by pass the primary one when it’s open based on the sticks and the play design.

    Anyways I’ve been waiting a long time for someone to come on this board with this kind of stuff. It’s excellent stuff
     
  17. Aqua4Ever04

    Aqua4Ever04 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I appreciate your attempt to strength my argument.

    You just called Philbin the worst coach in history.

    Jeff Fisher with Jared Goff....

    Now Sean McVay with Jared Goff....

    Do you think Goff just learned how to play all of a sudden.

    You can't make this stuff up.
     
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  18. Aqua4Ever04

    Aqua4Ever04 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    You're using team success. Isolate players.

    May as well cut Cam Wake, Ndamukong Suh and Reshad JOnes.... Cause this defense sucks. They obviously all suck.
     
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  19. Ilovemyfins4eva

    Ilovemyfins4eva A True Fan Donator

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    although i didnt say i was being sarcastic , many ppl on here when philbin was our coach, at first they loved him, and then once we never achieved anything with him, ppl would say how philbin was the worst coach in nfl history, basically it was used to shift blame away from tannehill.

    i never liked him personally, his robotic personality bored me, but i was being a bit sarcastic saying he was '' the worst coach in nfl history', but yet that was tannehills best year statistically.

    as for the jared goff comparison with fisher and now mcvay, the rams went from 32 in the nfl with fisher, which is rock bottom, to number 1 with mcvay, avg 29.9 ppg.

    tannehill with gase, granted it was 1 year, in 13 games started, finished 19th in ppg.
     
  20. Aqua4Ever04

    Aqua4Ever04 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    This will be the last comment on this topic I make. You're not going to change your mind, so why bother?

    The Dolphins OFFENSE was 19th in PPG. Not Tannehill, the offense. You may feel like absolving Dallas Thomas, Billy Turner, Anthony Steen and Jason Fox is a fair practice, I do not.
     
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  21. Ilovemyfins4eva

    Ilovemyfins4eva A True Fan Donator

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    and the qb is the most important position on offense. the offense goes as the qb goes. keep thinking everyone is awful around us, and keep believing that all the top offenses have all world o lines.

    there are plenty of offenses that look like ****, and then once they get the right qb, the offense all the sudden operates at a high level. look at gb, they had the same o line same wrs, etc, feared offense with rodgers, absolute joke with hundley. look at the texans offense this year. the first game they looked like ****, ppl were talking about the awful o line they had and how no one can succeed with it, then watson takes over, there offense all the sudden becomes one of the best in the league with watson, with that same ''awful oline''

    keep telling yourself its every other player but tannehill, i just hope the franchise does not delude themselves for that long.

    as u said though, im not changing ur mind, and ur not changing my mind, so this debating back and fourth is meaningless.

    enjoy the rest of ur day.
     
  22. roy_miami

    roy_miami 2020 cant get here soon enough Donator

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    Wentz wasn't very good last year either. Now he is good. Just like Goff appears to be. Both bad year one. Both good year two.
     
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  23. miami365

    miami365 Rookie

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    Like I said last in offensive plays would impact the overall numbers you're quoting.
     
  24. Aqua4Ever04

    Aqua4Ever04 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Bad coaching is a real thing. Most NFL players have a path to success, and Tannehill's is clear as day. He could be a dominant player if his traits are correctly utilized. Adam Gase got it figured out in week 6 last year. The next 8 games, Tannehill is 7-1 with a passer rating over 100.

    Weird how that works, huh?
     
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  25. rickd13

    rickd13 Scout Team

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    So why are you not willing to give Tannehill a second year in the new offense?
     
  26. miami365

    miami365 Rookie

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    This +1. Shanahan would love a QB with Tannehill's ability to throw on the run.
     
  27. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    If any of you idiots run this dude off with this dumb **** I hope they ban every last one of ya.
     
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  28. roy_miami

    roy_miami 2020 cant get here soon enough Donator

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    Yup just as weird as Dalton having lots of good stretches but according to Dolphin fans both him and Marvin Lewis are terrible, and always have been.
     
  29. EvilDylan

    EvilDylan A True Fan Donator

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    I love the people that say the QB is the most important piece of the offense, yet they are ok with surrounding him with garbage OL. Hmmm he's important, let's facilitate his ability to do the job with competent OL play. Sound logic there.
     
  30. Adam Strange

    Adam Strange Question Authority Finheaven VIP

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    Defending Marvin Lewis? Well, he’s better than Philbin. Maybe in another 15 years he’ll finally get past the first round.

    Your opinion of Tannehill aside, when it comes to evaluating coaches, you’re as credible as NYJunc was regarding Mark Sanchez.
     
  31. J. David Wannyheimer

    J. David Wannyheimer Tape Guys vs Analytics Guys Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Andy Dalton's a terrible example if we're talking about coaching and supporting cast. He's had the benefit of working with great backfields, a good offensive line, very talented receivers (including AJ Green, a top 3 guy), and on top of that he benefited from being coached by Jay Gruden (one of the best in the business) and Hue Jackson (historically a very good OC) before they brought in the much less accomplished Ken Zampese and Bill Lazor.

    For most of his career, Dalton's been in a situation that would make almost any other NFL quarterback envious, and the results have consistently been underwhelming. There's a very simple explanation for it, too. Andy Dalton's got a rag arm and can't challenge defenses in tight windows or on the perimeter. In my opinion, his ceiling is low tier starter / great backup, and it's entirely because of physical limitations.

    I don't dislike the guy one bit, as he seems like a good person off the field and Miami's had success against him for the most part. He's just not very good.
     
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  32. Vaark

    Vaark Nihil taurus crappus Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Fact: 2013 &14, Matt Ryan with offensive weapons Tannehill would have killed for won 6 less games than did Tannehill... And if you factor in '15, it's down to 4 less games.

    Of wait!!!! It's not #QBWinz - it's #TeamWinzOrLoses when it's another QB with more resources who's supposed to be better, right?
     
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  33. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    Op I see on your twitter cut ups that you reference tannehills top shelf ability to throw the seam. Charles Clay is basically h back size how do you feel mark Andrews would fit in that role given the route running the size the catch radius and the feet?

    And if you see a better fit in the draft who is it?
     
  34. Fins1971

    Fins1971 C'mon Dolphins

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    Nice diversion, I never said anything about cutting anyone. I’m using team success and scoring to show that nothing has changed offensively over a decade of football with totally different coaches, QB’s and coordators. We are still below average despite drafting a QB early and giving him a long tenure to develop. I know that teams can help players and vice versa. The supporting team could be better but after 77 games expecting a dramatic change isn’t the norm. I hope it happens. Think your comparison to Browns is a bit off. We were 500 team before and we are still a 500 team with Ryan. So no we wouldn’t be the Browns IMO
     
  35. superphin

    superphin Starter Finheaven VIP

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    Fact

    2013 Falcons had 27th defense, 32nd rushing offense, Matt Ryans weapons were 32 year old Roddy White who was clearly past his prime and not better than Mike Wallace and would retire within 3 years, 37 year old Tony G last year in the league, primary target for 2013 Harry Douglas who has one 1k season and whose career high in TD's is 2 in 8 years of play and whose 2nd best season was 556 yds, Julio Jones played 5 games, 30th ranked OL

    2013 Dolphins 8th defense, 26th rushing offense, Mike Wallace at this point better than Roddy White, Charles Clay 100 less yards on 14 less catches and 2 less TD’s, Brian Hartline no different than Harry Douglas I would actually say slightly better, 21st ranked OL.

    Sigh
     
  36. Vaark

    Vaark Nihil taurus crappus Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Fact:
    Atlanta 2014
    Julio 580
    Douglas 1067
    Gonzales 859
    White 711

    Atlanta 2015
    Jackson, Rogers, Freeman tandem: 1175
    Julio1593
    White 921
    Douglas 556

    LOLOL again imagine how Tannehill would have balled with those weapons.
     
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  37. Vaark

    Vaark Nihil taurus crappus Finheaven VIP Donator

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    PS: Melty Ice, who rarely met a "win or go home game" where he didn't disappear when needed most should be paying part of his $101? mil to Julio, Roddy and Douglas. OTOH, Tannehill got Hartline paid(imagine what he could have done for Douglas!) and got Clay the Buffalo deal as he never replicated his 2 seasons of catching balls from Tannehill.

    But it kind of sucks I know when reality and facts get in the way of a passionate subjective narrative, eh?
     
  38. superphin

    superphin Starter Finheaven VIP

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    Wasn't saying anything about 2014 and 2015 Julio was healthy...surely a healthy Julio Jones is worth at least 2 dolphin WR's. If your implying Harry Douglas is a lot better than Brian Hartline...they are the exact same player. Players who when targeted enough barely caught 1k yards, at least Hartline has a career high of 4 tds compared to Douglas 2. They have almost the exact same career numbers and thats with Douglas playing 2 more years. They are the same player, to imply that Douglas added any more to the falcon offense than Hartline did to the dolphin offense is just being stubborn. BTW may wanna check those numbers again Gonzalez didn't even play a game in 2014. White had 506 yards in 2015 and the rest is just wrong.
     
  39. FinfanInBuffalo

    FinfanInBuffalo Perennial All-Pro Finheaven VIP Donator

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    The difference is that Douglas was the #3 or #4 receiver on the team (behind Jones, White, and Gonzalez). Hartline was the #1 or #2 receiver on the team. So, you are saying that the Falcons #4 receiver was the same as the Dolphins #1 receiver.
     
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  40. superphin

    superphin Starter Finheaven VIP

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    In 2013 Harry Douglas had 132 targets and Brian Hartline had 133. That year he was not a #3 or #4 wr. That year the Falcons offense did not have weapons Tannehill would kill for.
     

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