Would u take Patterson at 12 and trade back into 1st for a DE since draft deep at DE?

Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by MrEd, Jan 11, 2013.

  1. MrEd

    MrEd Banned Hammered

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  2. uk_dolfan

    uk_dolfan Founder of the FH Adam Gase fan club Moderator Finheaven VIP

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    Nope if we get a big wr free agent we wont go wr in round one. We need our second round picks for TE and CB or WR
     
  3. MrEd

    MrEd Banned Hammered

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    See but in my scenario TE will be one of our two big FA signees, so I'm not including TE as a position of need come draft time. I agree on the need for a CB, but I would then trade back into the 2nd round (if we gave up both two's to move back into the 1st) to grab that CB or just wait for that second or one of our 3rds to grab the CB. And of course I have Hartline not part of the scenario, so looking for the FA WR to replace him in the starting lineup and then a draft pick ie Corderell Patterson to start opposite Wallace or Jennings. Bess of course is the slot along with Bush getting time there too. Matthews, Binn, Tyms, and Fuller compete for the remaining backup spots.
     
  4. MarinoEqualsGod

    MarinoEqualsGod The man, the myth, the legend

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    I asked this in another thread. Would love to hear other's opinions on this... Assuming we go DE or CB with our #12 pick:

    I desperately want us to get a really good TE sometime in the first couple round, but the two best TEs (Ertz and Eifert) are both likely to be taken late in the first. What would everyone think about trading a second and a third to move up into the back end of the first and take one of those two TEs? We'd still have a second and third rounder and would pick twice in the first. Is that fair value for a late first rounder, would anyone else do that, am I crazy?
     
  5. Austin Tatious

    Austin Tatious Starter

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    I like Cordarelle Patterson alot. His shiftiness at his size (6'3, I believe) is freaky. He would be a good fit for Miami. If, through some oddity, Bjoern Werner gets to 12, I'd take him. Otherwise Patterson looks like someone who fits Miami quite nicely.

    Chance Warmack would be number one on my board if you take position importance out of it. Jarvis Jones is not as good of a football player as Warmack is, and he would be one of the weakest number ones overall in recent memory.

    I want no part of Teo at 12. Talk about over-rated. And I am not talking about one game, although not showing up there is pretty damning. Pass.
     
  6. Oraclepz

    Oraclepz Seasoned Veteran

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    I think that's a necessity in this draft.. We need to come away with ertz / Eifert and a monster DE
     
  7. chrispepper

    chrispepper Well-Known Member

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    I think the best scenario is we get one of the top pass rushers at 12 to put opposite from wake and compensate for the weaker secondary OR take milliner if he's available.

    Then round 2 pick up a wr to go along with hopefully a free agent signing, hartline, bess and a cook/Keller type tight end. Then go pass rusher or corner with the other 2nd
     
  8. insomnia411

    insomnia411 The world is yours

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    We have a lot of needs, I'd rather stand pat or even trade down and take advantage of value. Like I've said before, I want us to target a top FA WR (or two) and draft an edge rusher at 12. There is a ton of top 15 DE talent in this draft, and the depth for our other need positions is good for the 2nd and 3rd rounds.
     
  9. MarinoEqualsGod

    MarinoEqualsGod The man, the myth, the legend

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    It's like you're reading my mind...
     
  10. THE GAME

    THE GAME Active Member

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    The TE from Stanford....he would fit nice at the 12th pick
     
  11. electrolyte

    electrolyte Banned Hammered

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    NO. We stay put and use our damn picks. What happens if we move up and the guy isn't good? We wasted several picks on 1 bust.

    Use our damn picks
     
  12. electrolyte

    electrolyte Banned Hammered

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    You said it yourself, you are crazy. You are pissing away picks like if it was monopoly money simply because we have extra picks. No. We use our picks and stay put. We have a lot of HIGH VALUE picks and we need to use all of them and acquire the most starting caliber players we can for our squad, regardless of need.

    There's no need to trade up for the guys with lots of hype. 2nd and 3rd round picks are starting caliber players if you pick correctly.
     
  13. SunsPhinsfan03

    SunsPhinsfan03 A True Fan

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    I wouldn't grab Patterson. If I'm at 12 and we draft a WR I want Keenan Allen. But anyways my ideal draft would be for the Fins to tab Dee Milner at #12. Dude was lights out all year and lights out in the NC game. I hate Bama with a passion, but they produce NFL talent, espcially under Saban. Then With Their 1st 2nd rd pick hope
    DeAndre Hopkins falls to them. Kid ate alive a very good LSU secondary in their bowl game and has really come into his own the 2nd part of the yr. I think their is a good chance he is gone by then, but
    that would be ideally for me what happens. I wouldn't be mad either if one of the Pash rushers were taken at 12 either.

    I think everyone would be disappointing if the Fins don't sign one of the BIG 3 WR's in FA. I think in doing that they allow themselves to take a PR or Milner at 12 and go TE or WR with 1 of their 2 2nd rd picks.

    Keep an eye on Stedman Bailey too....He has intriguing speed and could be a steal in the late 2nd (Colts pick)
     
  14. SunsPhinsfan03

    SunsPhinsfan03 A True Fan

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    As for the TE position, unless Eifert somehow falls to us, then I say we address it by adding Dustin Keller this offseason. Maybe I'm just so gun shy because Egnew was looked like such a waste,
    But We know Keller can be a threat in the passing game right away and I think he would be a nice addition to pair with Clay.
     
  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I'd consider this idea, for sure.
     
  16. Buddy

    Buddy Right Wing Nut Job Moderator Finheaven VIP

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    I don't have a problem trading up or down to get a solid impact player and/or value. However, I think that the best value at DE in this draft will come from Jenkins and Carradine from FSU in the late second our third rounds. They are better than a lot of the top DE but were injured. Jenkins was rated higher than Werner before the season. If they are healed at all, we could have both of them fairly easily and still use our top picks on CB, WR, and TE. Let Starks walk and pick up these two...immediate impact! No risk, no reward!

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
     
  17. Phins89

    Phins89 Well-Known Member

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    Hell, we could trade down, get a 2nd...and then trade back into the late first round twice and still have a 2nd...Could be considered lunacy but oh well.
     
  18. Canadi-Phin

    Canadi-Phin I hate everyone else in the AFC East

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    Perfect world for me is at 12 we grab Milliner/Banks or Werner/Mingo/ Moore. Get someone to help our pass defense. maybe even put us over the top as a top five defense. Then with our first 2nd see if some talented player has dropped, perfect world is Johnathan Cooper or Patterson for whatever reason. Have read lots of mocks around this spot for both, not that I think either will be there. IF no top 32 talent has dropped into our laps, start looking at adding one of the many 2nd and 3rd round grade receivers or corners, Hopkins, Bailey, Trufant, Rhodes. In the 2nd I would hope to either land a top 32 talent that drops or receiver and corner if we didn't take Milliner in the first. IN the 3rd again I would start looking at linemen depending on Jake signing or not but even looking for an upgrade in athlete over Richie for our LG spot. Also adding another receiver from the crop who look talented but don't have Calvin Johnson measureable and are still available. Obviously this all depends on FA, signing Jennings or Wallace would change my take on mahybe adding two receivers but maybe not on who drops. We need talent at lots of positions so really it comes down to who fits our schemes and who is the most talented at the pick. Could be a LB even though this isn't glaring need like corner or receiver.
     
  19. MP-Omnis

    MP-Omnis Larry King, Antique Bandwagon

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    I'd rather draft 1 elite player high and maintain depth than to pick a non-alpha WR and trade back up for more none elite players losing depth in the process.

    We can grab elite physical ability (Margus Hunt) later, but that's not a reason to not pick the same position earlier if he's the best on your board. Look at Clay Matthews vs. Vontae Davis. I hope the FO learned a lesson from that.
     
  20. Twitches Brew

    Twitches Brew A True Fan

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    The draft is also deep at WR, just not with top-10 talent. I'm guessing that 10 WRs go between picks 15-65 because of all the juniors coming out.
     
  21. Birdmond

    Birdmond FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I don't care how it happens. I want Patterson or Allen drafted by Miami. Trading down and getting one of the two would be stellar.
     
  22. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    Which is why people should give thought to the possibility of drafting Cordarrelle Patterson AND another player a little later on.
     
  23. ThrowDaTD

    ThrowDaTD Rookie

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    CK, Patterson at 12?
     
  24. Buff

    Buff From a galaxy far far away.... Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Is he worth it at 12? Is he in the same class as J Jones, AJ Green or Dez Bryant? If not, then no, not at 12. If he is there mid to late 20's, then perhaps trade back into the 1st after picking Deon Jordon with our 1st pick. WR in the draft than

    I think there are better wr's in the 2nd & 3rd that will be avaialble as opposed to more quality DE or CB's in the 2nds & 3rds, soI think we have to take the best DE at 12 that will help Wake, then target WR / TE with our 2nds & 3rds.

    Jordan at 12, and if we have to package a 2nd & 3rd or 4th to get back into the 1st & pick either Patterson or Allen, then so be it. We need a true No 1, and even if we get Jennings in FA, we need to groom a new No 1.
     
  25. roy_miami

    roy_miami 2020 cant get here soon enough Donator

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    I'd be moving around like mad if the opportunity presented itself. First I would trade down to the mid-late 20s for their first this year and next year, then if there is a player I want use a second to move back up some spots into the mid first.
     
  26. Birdmond

    Birdmond FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Better than Bryant but not Jones or Green BUT Jones and Green were top 7 picks so I don't see your point.
     
  27. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I was hoping for the first two rounds to look something like:

    Patterson
    Okafor
    Patton/Bailey

    But I don't think Okafor is going to be there in the 2nd. WR is our biggest need, and I'm pretty much sold on Patterson, so I still feel good about him at 12. If there aren't any pass rushers I really like at 42, I consider looking at WR again. We thought Hopkins would declare, but now that he has, it pushes someone else down the line (or I'm assuming it does). Patton, Woods, and Hopkins all look like they'd thrive in this offense. I feel like T. Williams would be another good fit, and he has a shot at falling. Hunter could fall, but I think someone takes a shot at him before the 2nd. If we do go WR/WR, we still have a 2nd and two thirds to address DE and CB. And while our D can definitely use upgrades at those position, FS, and could use depth at LB, it's not like that unit is a cluster **** void of talent like our offense. The D played pretty well this year. Good enough to win with a good offense. Have to prioritize the WR position. And with the talent out there, I'd prefer to pass on the FA's (unless Jennings signs for a friendly contract). I'd rather sign M. Johnson than D. Bowe.
     
  28. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    He should be in the mix for that pick, yes.
     
  29. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    The problem with this line of thinking is that Dez Bryant, AJ Green and Julio Jones are not in this draft.

    First off you're treating Cordarrelle Patterson unfairly if you're comparing him with guys that are currently successful in the NFL because you're never going to be able to avoid lookback bias there. How many people actually doubted Dez Bryant's talent coming out of the Draft? Quite a few, I can tell you because I argued against all of them and I ended up arguing quite a bit. I think A.J. Green was just accepted as a great talent, but was Julio Jones? Not really. Not until the Combine and even after that you had a lot of people pointing out that Julio was not an elite prospect until the Combine and the Combine shouldn't matter that much, etc.

    Second, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. You're tossing out Cordarrelle Patterson based on his not being (NFL) Julio Jones, (NFL) Dez Bryant or (NFL) A.J. Green...but why aren't you tossing out Dion Jordan for not being (NFL) Demarcus Ware, (NFL) Aldon Smith or (NFL) Jason Pierre-Paul? Your exact sentence, exact line of reasoning, could be used to eliminate pretty much every single player that will be available to us at #12 overall.

    You've got to compare these players to EACH OTHER...because you can't draft A.J. Green in this Draft. You can't draft Dez Bryant or Demarcus Ware in this Draft. You can only draft Cordarrelle Patterson, Dion Jordan, Barkevious Mingo, Jarvis Jones, Keenan Allen, Dee Milliner, Johnthan Banks, Sheldon Richardson, Dion Jordan, Alex Okafor, Zeke Ansah, Damontre Moore or Manti Te'o. I mean, there are other choices, but you get the point.
     
  30. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I agree with this.

    Pass rushers Miami should consider at #42 overall include Cornellius Carridine and Corey Lemonier. I would be happy with either player. Both are great value for what they are.

    This wide receivers class is so deep, if you've already got the guy at #12 in Patterson that you think provides the same spark for your offense that Julio Jones provides in Atlanta, and in free agency you've either re-signed Brian Hartline or decided to upgrade to Greg Jennings, then you could even wait a little while before you start rolling the dice on some other guys. For example, you could wait until the 4th round or so and roll the dice on STRENGTH guys like Marcus Davis or Chris Harper. These are guys that have a history of physically wrestling the ball in the air away from defenders, with strong hands, and then showing strength and power in their running after the catch.
     
  31. xXwarXx

    xXwarXx Banned Hammered

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    I think people are jumping off the Keenan Allen and onto the Patterson bandwagon just because its something new and and maybe because hes a little faster?

    IMO Allen is better in almost every category. How quickly he pulls that ball in and turns it up field, even in tight coverage is rare. The ball just disapesrs once its near him. He plays very physical, runs a large variety of routes, and is much more polished and IMO, much more of a sure thing than Patterson.

    Plus we've already seen Allen take on double and triple teams, and beat them often. Thats with maynard throwing to him.
    Now I like them both, but I just don't see Patterson as a better player. I think Allen is being really overlooked. When I look at the rest of the talent that realisticsly has a chance to be there at 12, IMO Allen is best player overall.
     
  32. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    The big concern with Keenan Allen is that in the end he's just not special. Solid, big, good hands, runs routes fairly well, but just not special. A guy that in the SEC would've been a safety. That's always been my biggest concern with him, will you get him in the NFL and discover he's just average when everyone else is bigger, stronger and faster?

    As for why Cordarrelle Patterson has become the hot dot, it's because he's a junior JUCO transfer. Remember this time two years ago everyone knew who Cam Newton was and they saw him win the national championship, but he was still being honestly discussed as a possibility for the Dolphins at #15 overall and many a Dol-Fan thought he would be a reach at that pick. The reason is because Newton was a junior JUCO transfer. He was not on anyone's radar until his one year with Auburn, he was understandably raw and progressed as the season wore on, and it just takes a while for the market to fully get their arms around where exactly a guy like that is going to be valued. Keenan Allen has been around for years, on radar for years, people are used to him and have an idea where about he will value. Patterson is going to be all over the place and it won't be probably until March before we start to really get an idea where he's going to settle in.
     
  33. xXwarXx

    xXwarXx Banned Hammered

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    Allen is 6"3 210 and is hardly weak, I don't see him getting bullied one bit in the nfl. And He is incredibly agile. Not agile for his size, agile for any size. You can see that short area agility when he's returning kicks, or taking short passes and turning them into big gains in traffic.

    Has great vision, it's incredibly rare to see a wr who brings the ball in as quick as he does and with no hesitation turns it up field immediately. There is no yards left on the field with him. I really csnt think of to many WRs in recent years who snatches the ball up out of the air as quick as he does.

    I watched games where Allen was doubled and tripled and everyone on the field knew where the ball was going and he still produced. This kid is a workhorse wide reciever. I think it would be a huge mistake to pass him. This guy can beat you so way many ways.

    what you said about Patterson is probably also true. He did kind of sneak up on us, but the way it seems so many Mia fans have jumped ship on Allen, to me is crazy.
     
  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I didn't call him weak nor did I say he'd be bullied. I said that in the NFL the players will be bigger, stronger and faster than they were in college. In college, Keenan Allen was bigger and stronger and faster than the people he faced, and thus he looked way above average. In the NFL he could look like just a guy as everyone else is also big and strong. And when you say he doesn't leave yards on the field, I really disagree with that. I see him go to the carpet too often and it's one of the concerns I've had with him. He should be better after the catch than he's been. And sometimes it looks like he's not going all out. There are some attitude issues that I THINK (note: I do not KNOW) might be lurking under the surface. I've seen signs.

    I'm not sure Dolphins fans were EVER really on board with Keenan Allen at #12 overall or even before it was known where the Dolphins would pick. That's the truth. The sentiment I saw most often was that no WR in this particular Draft is worth picking that high because none of them have the same abilities you saw from for instance an A.J. Green or Julio Jones. That's still the sentiment I'm seeing for the most part today. It's actually (strangely) non Dol-Fans, draftniks like Rob Rang and Dane Brugler, who keep having Miami pegged with Keenan Allen by virtue of "Dolphins need WR". Dolphins fans themselves have been almost downright unified thinking that there isn't really a receiver worth taking up top. I think Cordarrelle Patterson is starting to break some cracks in that wall as everyone gets their arms wrapped around what exactly he showed in Tennessee this year, as well as what he'd been doing in JUCO prior to that.
     
  35. xXwarXx

    xXwarXx Banned Hammered

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    You make a lot of good points, although I disagree about Allen leaving yards on the field. I don't know about any attitude problems, but I know whenever I watched him he was a complete workhorse. It seemed like he had his own personal defense zone around him a lot of times, and under those conditions he still put up stats. I like that I've seen him as the only focus point of the d, and still got it done. I havnt seen that with Patterson. I couldn't even imagine what Allen would do with hunter on the other side of him.

    As for everyone being faster and stronger in the NFL, you could say that about any draft pick, no?

    IMO Allen is a 6"3 wr who has the talents of a 6"0 wr. It's rare to see a wr of that stature attack the defense in so many different ways. The big corners can't out muscle him and the small ones cant even keep up with him. He really has an incredibly unique set of talents. On consecutive plays you can see him bull rush a safety, and than juke out a cb.

    I know most ppl see Patterson and they just see that speed and csnt get over it. I dont blame anyone, I love to. I think alleys talents are being far overlooked. There's just so much he does exceptionally well.
     
  36. cane6

    cane6 Well-Known Member

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    Allen reminds me of a taller mike Crabtree. Patterson reminds me of a young TO, lots of physical skills but needs refinement
     
  37. nyfinzfan

    nyfinzfan Seasoned Veteran

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    I have a strong feeling this whole thing is moot. Im thinking Wallace or Jennings signs here for sure so we can go BPA at one...im actually positive its what happens. Then a WR later say 2nd or early 3rd...
     
  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    Yes it's definitely an argument you can make about any draft pick and I should've made myself clearer on why I bring it up in particular about Keenan Allen. The reason I bring it up in particular about him is because I think that his size, speed and agility is not necessarily above average in the NFL. On the other hand, I think Cordarrelle Patterson's is above average in the NFL...possibly even elite.
     
  39. xXwarXx

    xXwarXx Banned Hammered

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    I agree pattersons speed is elite, but is he?

    I can't help but look at his stats and wonder where they are? You explained well, that they dont tell the whole story and I get that. But still, for a 12th rnd pick there is nothing impressive there. This is a guy with Justin hunter on the other side stretching the field.

    I partially agree about Allen and the physical ability of the rest of the NFL, but I disagree that it will have the effect you seem to think it will. He's far to good in to many areas for that. I cant imagine what he can do in a decent offense where the he's not the only player the defense is watching.
     
  40. ITS!MATEO

    ITS!MATEO A True Fan

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    It's not his speed that is going to make him elite, it's his elusiveness, agility and quickness with being that big. He only runs a high 4.4, but he's agile in short space and it's incredible for a guy his size. He can stop on a dime and change direction leaving defenders flying past him like a USC reggie bush. The guy has some elite tools to work with.

    He can learn to run an NFL route, but he can't learn to be that elusive. That's natural ability.
     

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