X and O knowledge requests

Discussion in 'General NFL Forum' started by Sarnics13, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. Sarnics13

    Sarnics13 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    So i played a lot of sports growing up but it's been since high school and I'm not as versed on on the deep knowledge as I'd like to be. I think it would be nice to have a place to go to get some answers from those of you that have a much deeper base to ask questions to.

    I'll start. When it's said that a team plays a lot of "11 personnel" , what is that referring to?

    I'm too literal a person. I read that and think.... when do we ever not have 11 people on the field??:asshat

    We've talked about having an X&0 glossary in chat before. I think it would be a great idea. I have more resources than I know what to do with. I'd be glad to help and answer any questions.

    Until then here's a quick chart on how to ID personnel groupings:

    [​IMG]


    Defensive alignments:

    [​IMG]

    Offensive line gaps:

    [​IMG]



    Credit to @Sons Of Shula
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2017
  2. greasyObnoxious

    greasyObnoxious I love lamp Finheaven VIP Donator

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    "11 personnel" means 1 TE and 1 RB. you generally have 5 skill position players on the field, so thats the short way of saying how they split up into WRs, TEs and RBs.

    "12 personnel" would be one RB, 2 TEs, 2 WRs, "21" is 2 RBs, 1 TE, 2 WRs and so on
     
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  3. Always Next Year

    Always Next Year Starter

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    11 personnel means 1 RB, 1 TE and 3 WR.

    12 would be 1 RB, 2 TE and 2 WR

    21 would be 2RB, 1 TE, and 2 WR. This is also sometimes referred to as the "Pro Set"
     
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  4. Always Next Year

    Always Next Year Starter

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    Guess we posted at the same time, lol
     
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  5. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Might be a good idea.
     
  6. Austin Tatious

    Austin Tatious Starter

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    Nice.

    How about the way DL line up:
    O technique
    1 technique
    3 technique
    5 technique
     
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  7. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Just modified my 1st post to include that.
     
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  8. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP Donator

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  9. Bumpus

    Bumpus Are you gonna drink that? Administrator Finheaven VIP

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  10. Sarnics13

    Sarnics13 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Wait a minute.....i resemble that remark!
     
  11. Sarnics13

    Sarnics13 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    That helped a ton. Thanks Nick

    I'm hoping to expand this past just terminology and get in to concepts and reasoning. I read sons, hoops and others breaking down a play and explaining the concepts of responsabilities as it pertains to a specific position and i find myself clicking on like just bc I'm impressed and don't want to appear the ignorant one..... but i am and I'm tired of not knowing.
     
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  12. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I stickied this one too. Sons had a good post about the offensive terms. I will move that to the OP for easier viewing
     
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  13. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Fire away questions on anything I post, I'm more than happy to provide any and all additional explanations and details. I thoroughly enjoy it.

    ^ This goes for everyone. Feel free to hit me up.

    I've got another years subscription to GamePass also, so I'll do my best to provide visual clips as well from the All-22 and goal line cams. Plus countless other resources.
     
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  14. Sarnics13

    Sarnics13 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    As i look at the gap assignments i understand a little better.
    To relate..... which of those would Suh and wake be? And why. What makes a DL better as a 4 gap vs a 5 or 7?
     
  15. Sarnics13

    Sarnics13 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    And what is the scheme and personnel difference between a 34 and a 43 D? I read people taking about how a certain player or D coach is a 43 guy. Why would a LB, for example be good at one and not at the other?

    You opened the floor gates by offering....
     
  16. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Suh is a our 3 tech and as our main defensive lineman in our Over front he also sets the strength.

    Here's a base look at a 4-3 Over front with alignment and keys:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
  17. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    More than happy though I've got to run soon, but I promise to answer all questions in detail when time permits.

    Here's a look at a base 4-3 Under scheme:

    [​IMG]

    Just because I'm throwing up graphics I also understand they might not be helpful if one is unsure of what they are looking at. Again feel free to ask more questions if needed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  18. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    You will find 4 tech DL in a traditional 3-4 defense as the NT and the two DE's line head up over the Center and two Guards respectively.

    [​IMG]

    By a traditional 3-4 defense I mean that the DL will be 2 gap defenders. Think of the old Parcells/Belichick Giants defense from the 80's. These men are the behemoths of the game. Big, strong DL's. Vince Wilfork is a perfect example.

    To differentiate one and two gap principles for DL - One gap DL will play a single gap. Two gap will play the lineman and defend the gaps to either side of him which is indicates above by double arrows.
     
  19. Sarnics13

    Sarnics13 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Over....under??
     
  20. Sarnics13

    Sarnics13 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    So a 34 D needs wilfork type truck guys bc they have to manage dual gaps to plug up lanes?
     
  21. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    For a 4-3,

    An Over front will feature the 3 tech (DT) on the strong side of the offensive formation where the TE lines up and the 1 tech (NT) will be shaded on the opposite side from him over the Center with 3 off the ball LBs

    An Under will feature the 3 tech (DT) on the weakside of the offensive formation opposite the TE and again the 1 tech (NT) will be shaded on the opposite side from him with two off the ball LBs and and the SAM (strongside linebacker) on the LOS (line of scrimmage) over the TE.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  22. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Not all. There a 3 different types of 3-4 defenses.

    The traditional 3-4 which was posted above must have 3 two gap defensive lineman. **** LeBeau also ran this with the Steelers.

    A one gap 3-4 which Wade Phillips is known for which mixes the principles of the 4-3, in that it's a 3-4 front but one gap responsibilities for everyone along in the front 7.

    And hybrid 3-4 which Belichick is known for and I can give greater detail on that later. There's a **** ton that goes into his defenses.
     
  23. Sarnics13

    Sarnics13 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I realize you are probably scratching your head at how someone could not know all this but how the hell do you get all this straight unless you're actively involved in the game at a high level??


    The 3 in "3-4" means three Dlineman on the line?
     
  24. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Along with having been involved in the sport as a player and even coaching to some extent, I've studied football extensively over the years. At least 4-5 days out of the week I read articles, clinic reports, and research reports; I watch coaching clinics and the televised games with no sound and then watch more closely throughout the week via coaches film (All-22 and goaline cams); I also study systems, schemes, strategy, player assignments/evaluations, etc. from other resources and materials. It's become a very enjoyable hobby.

    Yes, the first number tells of the down lineman, the second indicates the number of LBs, and the DBs are given by the amount left over.
     
  25. Sarnics13

    Sarnics13 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    What's the advantage of one D over the other? 3-4 and 4-3?
     
  26. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    That depends heavily on the coach's philosophy as there are many variations of each. Let's just make it simple and focus on a few examples and strictly on the traditional principles and front alignments of the two.

    4-3

    Advantages:
    - Simple player assignments. The 4 DL pass rush first and react to the run. The 3 LBs read run first and react to the pass.
    - Good against the run b/c the 4 down lineman allows the LBs, especially the MLB, to flow behind them.

    Disadvantages:
    - Requires top MLB play.
    - poor against spread, modern pass offenses, and play-action.
    - less options for blitzing

    3-4

    Advantages:
    - Gives you mutiple blitz looks
    - Lends to an athletic and versatile LB unit

    Disadvantages:
    - Requires 3 two gap DL.
    - LBs must be the playmakers.
     
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  27. Sarnics13

    Sarnics13 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    So 3-4 is a concept sought by coaches that are heavy blitz type coaches i would assume. With more athletic, quick LB's as opposed to thumpers since they're in coverage often....?

    Based on that i don't really understand what we are. I typically see only 3 LB but from your explanation kiko would seem like a 3-4 LB in a 4-3 system. That would explain why you are not a fan of his?
     
  28. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Not necessarily. Even though **** LeBeau was known for the Zone Blitz, it was more often than not about safe pressure. Though the term might sound aggressive it's actually a conservative approach of blitzing 5 and dropping 6 into coverage. The catch was simply that the offense didn't know which 5 from the 11 were going to rush the QB and which 6 were dropping. It causes not only confusion for the QB in post snap reads but also upfront for the o-line in not knowing who they will have to be blocking.

    But you are correct on the 2nd part of that in that they feature more athletic LB who can cover and blitz.

    Bingo on Alonso. He had his ROTY accolades in essentially a 3-4 defense. I also think his 3 knee surgeries and hip surgery has slowed him and zapped him of strength at the POA (point of attack).
     
  29. Sarnics13

    Sarnics13 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Nickel package?
     
  30. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Nickel - It's a defensive passing package. So think of the number of DBs and the number value that represents a nickel. This package contains 5 DBs (3 CBs, 2 S). A listed like the base defenses we discussed of the 4-3 and 3-4, so a nickel defense can also be listed as a 4-2 (4 DL, 2 LB), or 3-3 (3 DL, 3 LB) even 2-4 (2 DL, 4 LB)

    Big Nickel - the 3rd CB or slot CB is replaced by a safety; usually a SS/LB hybrid.

    Dime - 6 DBs
     
  31. Sarnics13

    Sarnics13 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    So when it's said someone is only in when we play nickel that means when we're defending an assumed passing down?
     
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  32. Sarnics13

    Sarnics13 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I assume there are different types of oline blocking schemes you're referring to? I understand the difference between a run blocker vs pass blocker but what does this mean?
     
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  33. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    For the time being we'll keep it short and simple.

    Run blocking:

    Power running schemes (aka man, gap) emphasize and overwhelm the POA (point of attack). Many times you'll see pulling lineman, a fullback, or motioning TE attack the specific gap (A, B, C, D) that the RB is supposed to go. It's associated with leads, traps, counters, sweeps, etc

    Zone running schemes (ZBS = zone blocking system) emphasize a double team (duece block) at the POA and once the block is established one of them will disengage and head to the 2nd level (LBs). It's associated with inside zone, outside zone, duo, etc.


    Pass blocking:

    Vertical sets create a deep and narrow pocket. You'll see the tackles perform two kick steps backwards but the lineman try and stay tight at the hip. It's useful to ward off any stunts or twists by the DL and for tackles to run a rusher out the back or behind the QB, but it can be susceptible to good edge rushers as it gives them more room to build up speed and time their counters due to the tackles depth after the kick steps.

    Dish sets create a wide and shallow pocket (aka jump set). It's a more aggressive set where instead of the lineman retreating and accepting the defender - like the vertical set - they have more of an attack mentality to try and punch and get their hands on the DL first. It's also very useful to disguise playaction where the lineman look as though they are run blocking, but are selling the run for the pass.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
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  34. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP Donator

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  35. Sarnics13

    Sarnics13 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Not yet! o_O
     
  36. Sons Of Shula

    Sons Of Shula not a dull boy Hammered Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Gonna drop this here as a reminder for myself later.

    Unfortunately at this time I'm dealing with family being evacuated from Cape Coral.
     
  37. Sarnics13

    Sarnics13 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Understandable. Stay safe brother and take care of your family.
     
  38. dudebro420mang

    dudebro420mang Active Member

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    Which side do we play our will on/que as the weak and strong side? Like I know the Kiffin school of thought is that the will plays where there are more receivers, like in 11 personnel Will plays on the side of the slot receiver, against 21 personnel will lines up on the TE side. Or do we play it where SAM lines up on the TE side will on the other?

    Do we run 4-3 under fronts ever or only wide 9 and over?
     
  39. Sons Of Shula

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    We play our LBs true to definition w/ the Sam on the TE side.

    We have shown limited use of the Under front in preseason against 12, and 21 personnel.
     

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