Zach Extension Not Looking Promising (merged w/other Zach threads)

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by e.vedder, Feb 20, 2003.

  1. e.vedder

    e.vedder Mexico loves da fins

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    any news about ZT contract

    Those anybody here have any idea what hapend with the negotiation in the Zach Thomas contract????


    They were expecting to signin before 28/feb



    Any news????
     
  2. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan A True Fan

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  3. e.vedder

    e.vedder Mexico loves da fins

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    THX van
     
  4. Elfpower

    Elfpower Scout Team

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    Eddie, is it reallly you?
     
  5. GazPhin

    GazPhin Brannigan Begin Again

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    The Miami Herald has an article...

    about Zach's contract being at an impasse and therefore Ruddy and Perry are likely to be cut to get under the cap in time. No doubt there'll be a link to it on Finheaven's front page sooner or later.

    Seems the guy at ESPN does know his cap cut facts after all.
     
  6. dolphan39

    dolphan39 Maria & LauRen Aha!

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    Thomas contract talks at impasse
    this sucks
    we are screwed if that happens. And since we have no backup LBs worth anything, we cannot cut him either - not that that would be something that would the team psyche.
     
  7. breckenridge55

    breckenridge55 K-STATE PHIN

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    Zach Extension Not Looking Promising

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/news/2003/0221/1512249.html

    I agree with what Blitzkrieg said in the other post. If he wants to help this team so much, he would take a paycut. He isn't as good as the 6.whatever mil we pay him a year and I hope we don't extend his contract for anywhere near that number. We don't need to pay one player a ton of money.
     
  8. LeftCoastPhin

    LeftCoastPhin Getting geeked for 2003!!

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    I'm also beginning to wonder if he's worth the pay of a top 5 MLB??? I just dont know anymore..... He's no spring chicken and that's a lot of cheddar to tie up in your MLB.
     
  9. BLITZKRIEG

    BLITZKRIEG ~LACUNA LEGIONS~

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    Be careful Breck, these Zach groupies are tough....

    I wish they would just wake up and see what this guy is going ultimately cost us if he decides to not re-structure. Doing this, he can forget about any help for him at OLB....

    PHINZ RULE!!!

    :fire:
     
  10. LeftCoastPhin

    LeftCoastPhin Getting geeked for 2003!!

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    I"m with you on this one Blitz, if he's gonna talk the talk, he should walk the walk.

    I can really never crucify a player for not wanting to give up 4 million, who am I to judge? However, if he doesn't extend he better shut his pie hole about not upgrading and continuing to lose.
     
  11. RHoffman

    RHoffman DOB: Get my Ring!

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    Simple Reality...

    regarding this whole Zach Thomas thing is that we have to wait and see. If next Friday comes, Zach has not signed an extension and we have to cut several players and are unable to sign marquee free agents, then we can start to really get on his case.

    Till that point we just have to keep are knee jerk reactions in check...maybe we lowballed him...maybe he is being unreasonable...but until Perry and Ruddy are out of here or we can't sign a Gandy or Petigout it's too early to judge Zach.

    That being said...if we get to that point, he deserves a lot of criticism, especially after opening his mouth about the team needing to get better. I wouldn't be adverse to considering other options.

    He is not untouchable...and Spikes or Claiborne might be money better well spent.

    Its not personal...it's just business.
     
  12. Platinum

    Platinum Well-Known Member

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    Hes worth about 5 Million a year I would say, but he gets man handled by all the TE's because of his size. Brooking is considerably better than him.
     
  13. Cranx

    Cranx A True Fan

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    I want to ask all of you a question here: If your company asked you to take a humongous pay cut for the coming year because they needed some help, but told you that they would backload your contract with tons of cash that you knew they were likely to never give you, would you do it? Of course you wouldn't and if you say that you would you're either high or dillusional.

    In other words, why get down on the guy when he's not doing anything that any one of us would do? If they were offering him a guaranteed contract, like those given to some of the other guys who've extended recently, then you all might have an argument, but it's clear- in the ESPN artice- that the 'Fins aren't offering him that kind of contract and are really trying to low ball the guy for their own gain.

    Finally, any of you who don't think ZT is worth it, I suggest you look around the league at some of the teams who don't have guys who are as active or who have a nose for the ball like Zach; their defenses generally suck. He's not only feared as a tackler but as a defensive field general who can spot the opposing team's plays eight out of ten times, and that is rare talent that's coveted by every single team out there.

    If ZT leaves and two mediocre guys are put out there as a stop-gap, you will all see just how valuable this guy really is to this team. I hope that never happens.
     
  14. breckenridge55

    breckenridge55 K-STATE PHIN

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    Yes, but Expo, it's different than your company. You could care less what happens to your company as long as you make your money right? Well, in football it's a little different. These guys care to win, or at least we think they do. Some guys go to winning teams for less money. Our point is, if Zach keeps crying about not winning, then he should help the cause and take a pay cut. Besides, he isn't worth any more than 5 mil at all. I wouldn't give him anymore than 4.3 or so at the most. He is not an elite linebacker anymore. He is very good, but not elite. He can't cover guys out of the backfield or the tight end man up, and that is what our defense calls for him to do. Also, he isn't making any big play when it is needed which doesn't help the cause either.
     
  15. BLITZKRIEG

    BLITZKRIEG ~LACUNA LEGIONS~

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    Personally Expo, I think your full of ****.

    8 OUT OF 10 TIMES??.....Yeah right, where was that nose of his during the Ravens domination last year, and the Minnesota game, and the NE collapse ect. ect....???

    Zach never stops the gap when he's singled up one on one with a solid RB coming at him....he get's buried. Two words : Travis Henry...

    Field general???....This guy has hardly any leadership qualities at all. All he does is complain about everyone else but himself.....


    PHINZ RULE!!!:fire:
     
  16. DeDolfan

    DeDolfan A True Fan

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    Re: Zach Extension Not Looking Promising

    I think I know where this thread is going and before i read another post in it, I want to ask everyone here just one question, keeping it in perspective and all, and then I'll come back in a day or so and see what comes falling out the bag!! :)


    How many ppl here makes or knows anyone that makes 166 grand a year ??


    DD...........................................
     
  17. Cranx

    Cranx A True Fan

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    Now you're getting personal A-hole. Just because you can't string together a logical argument based upon anything but your own ill informed, and obviously, jaded opinion, doesn't mean you need to start telling people they're full of s**t.

    If you'd opne your ears and listen to what OTHER teams that face the guy have to say about him, then maybe you'd realize (not likely with your "my opinion is law" mentality) he's one of the more feared LB's in the game. Unfortunately, you've decided that you're going to launch a posting assault against ZT and everyone else who KNOWS he's a valuable member of the 'Fins, so you're probably not going to comprehend anything I just said.

    Go on with your little "I hate him! I hate him! I hate him!" tyrade, it won't make one bit of difference in the FACTS (in this case those are the things that are based upon quantatative results, compiled by the NFL and not things-thank God- based upon some moron's opinion.)

    :shark:
     
  18. RHoffman

    RHoffman DOB: Get my Ring!

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    Expo...

    the reality is that Zach might be real upset to learn what his true value would be on the open market...

    just something to consider...

    and I don't dislike Zach...I think he is a good player...
    but I do think we have a tendency to overvalue him a bit.
     
  19. Cranx

    Cranx A True Fan

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    Re: Re: Zach Extension Not Looking Promising

    I know two, and I'm not one of them.
     
  20. Platinum

    Platinum Well-Known Member

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    I think hes a great LB, but is he unable to be replaced? I dont think so. What do you suggest we do if he refuses to negotiate and we are left with nothing to sign FAs with? That means no new WR, no OL help, no OLB help.
     
  21. Cranx

    Cranx A True Fan

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    Re: Expo...

    I'm basing my opinion on what we've all seen him do on the field, as well as the quantatative statistics that were compiled by ESPN this past season (I wish I could find them, but that was months ago.) I'm also basing this upon what most opponents have to say about him; he's feared.

    In the 'Fins defensive scheme, a guy like ZT is a must so I don't think that there's a lot of over-valuing when you look at it from that perspective.

    Sure, the guy gets a little hot under the collar some times and comes accross as a complainer in the media, but I've never heard anything but great things about him from his teammates and that's what really counts. He only spouts off when the team is in a duldrum and needs a kick in the a**.

    Would he get huge bags of cash on the open market, who knows, his age might make some people think twice, but there's no denying that he's still one the best at his position in the entire NFL.
     
  22. msyfinfan

    msyfinfan Member

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    I know several people who make a 166 grand a year or more. Trust me if the company I worked for asked me to take a paycut, I would say no.
     
  23. Unconquered

    Unconquered Well-Known Member

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    I don't know anyone that makes 166 large per year. I would not take a pay cut...but then again I make 33 grand per year. If I made 5 million and have been for several years and I was asked to take a pay cut that would still pay me millions on top of the millions I already have to help my team win the biggest game on the planet...I think I would do it. Just my $.02
     
  24. breckenridge55

    breckenridge55 K-STATE PHIN

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    Exactly conquered. Besides, what is Zach going to do with that extra cash anyways? Lol, I mean he would like extra money, but to make his team better which is what he is complaining about?
     
  25. davster82

    davster82 Pro Bowler

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    Maybe Zach will promise to help pay for Ricky to get his website back up and running>LOL
     
  26. fin-atic

    fin-atic Are you a VIP? Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Before you convict Zach...WAIT!

    I haven't heard anything from Zach yet. Drew Rosenhaus is heavily quoted.

    Well anyone who lives in So. Florida can tell you about Ego-maniac Rosenhaus. He is trying to get the best deal for him and his player. He is the biggest leech on earth!!!!

    Before it's done Zach will take the hit and do the right thing.

    Talk of his release is way premature.

    PS
    The man is still a Pro Bowler. He deserves top five money. We have few stars as it is, we need to keep the playmekers we have.
     
  27. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    And generally players DO cooperate with teams with this kind of thing and that is why they do it because the amounts are so large. But every player has a threshold they don't go beyond and its hard to criticize a player for having one.

    Zach is excellent in our system in ways that not many other linebackers could be in our system. And he could be pretty good on another team even in another system. But he wouldn't be performing at the level that he is with us.

    BUT, this is why Zach is set to get a signing bonus in the 7 figure range and not the 8 figure range. Ray Lewis got 19 million up front. Statistically speaking Zach and Ray Lewis consistently from year to year stay a head above the rest of the bozos at linebacker. We're getting near-Lewis production at a half-Lewis price. We should account ourselves lucky that we found a guy who is so talented the way we play ball but whose talents dont translate well to other systems.

    Do we pay him by his value to us, or by his value to other teams? This is why they are at an impasse.
     
  28. jtown777

    jtown777 Go HALOS!!!!

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    Re: Re: Zach Extension Not Looking Promising

    How many ppl here makes or knows anyone that makes 166 grand a year ??



    I do, but I own the company. And if I needed to take a cut to help my business (team), I would. It's only logical. If you want to be successful, especially as part of a team, you have to make sacrifices.
    I'm sure that this is all real premature, and I think this will get hashed out. I wouldn't expect ZT to just go with whatever they throw at him. And vice-versa.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2003
  29. Boomer

    Boomer FinHeaven Elite

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    Unfortunately the hard truth is that Zach probably only has 2 years MAX at the top level. The window of opportunity for guys that give up their bodies with such alacrity as Zach does week in and week out, is pretty small. I'm sure that thought HAS to be on the mind of Rick Spielman. And as Zach has ALWAYS said, it is a business, whether we like it or not.
     
  30. davster82

    davster82 Pro Bowler

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    Very well said fin-atic. Some folks are jumping to conclusions. Zach and Drew have not said no to restructuring, just no to what has been presented thus far. Lets give this thing a chance.
     
  31. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    Zach should be a Dolphin for the remainder of his career. Thats the bottom line.

    I look at Brooking's contract and I see promise because Brooking is probably better than Zach and he's also younger I think so we have right and reason to be asking Zach to take a signing bonus around the 7 or 8 million range rather than 10 million. Use the Gardner thing and say hey we got burned last time we dumped tons o cash on a guy we didn't feel right about injury-wise and age and injuries are always linked.
     
  32. MNFINFAN

    MNFINFAN Premium Member

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    I know several people that make that and more. I have my own business and to keep up with our goal for 2003 (to stay in business :) ) my senior staff and I all took paycuts or cut out bonuses for two years. I think Zach is in the same position as my company, he is making a lot of money and if that is all he wants, then he will not take a cut. However if he is serious about wanting to attain his goal and win a SB as a dolphin then accepting a pay cut should not be out of the question. He is not an under $72k salaried employee, he makes a s**t load of money and taking a cut to attain your goals should not be out of the question especially when that pay cut is still a s**t load of money Just my 1 cent, had to cut out the 2 cent opinions!
     
  33. T-ROCK

    T-ROCK Antagonist...

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    I agree with fin-atic... Zach's agent is doing all the talking, not Zach... Give it some time, he'll do what's best for himself AND the team, and that's sign a restructured contract that leads to him retiring as a Dolphin...
     
  34. Cranx

    Cranx A True Fan

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    Fin-atic,

    Nice to see you and I are on the same page on this one (we won't talk about Griese, OK ;) ) as I was beginning to think I was the only person left who still believed in what ZT can do.

    I was actually quite shocked to see how many people, all of a sudden, decided to slam ZT over this without hearing both sides of the story.
     
  35. iceblizzard69

    iceblizzard69 A True Fan

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    I can't see why a deal can't get done, maybe if he didn't have a bastard like Rosenhaus as his agent who loves to **** the Fins cap up. It sounds like Konrad will definitely test the FA market. I don't know why the Fins trust Drew so much, he is a **** and he doesn't care at all about our team!!!
     
  36. Jaj

    Jaj What you say?

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    Look if he doesn't re-sign with us he will get cut. It is his last year and we really don't have to keep him. I don't think he would have a cap penalty, because of that. His replacement would be Cris Claiborne who would quit simply sit on Travis Henry. He would be slightly cheaper than Zach and will only be turning 25. Then in the OLB spot we cna bring in Dwayne Rudd to solidify it all. On offense we go for Doug Gabriel, Newson, and Marcus Robinson. We get ourselves Koy Detmer and Gandy. Trust me this is not as expensive as it seems.

    The pay cuts from Ruddy and Rodgers will pay for Gandy. We get the money for Rudd from the 500k we save from Thomas and Perry's cut. Then we are done. We will keep the first year on Claiborne's contract cheaper than the second so that we can get under. We will be in good cap shape once Gardener's cap hit is over in 2004.

    I'm not saying we should do it if Zach is cooperative though. Only if he doesn't want to comply.
     
  37. Samphin

    Samphin Dolphins Homer

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    Jaj, no way this team could bring in those many players with so little scratch even if Thomas goes away. I ask this question, when Miami signed any of their players to these contracts, why on earth to they expect everyone to cooperate in resigning. I know some of you will state that they had an understanding that down the line there will be a restructure, but maybe there wasn't. Besides, you guys are using the wrong analogy as far as work goes. This is the equivilant to your boss telling you that you are going to make this much money and then he comes to you later once he realizes he is in a pinch and says ok give me your money back, and I PROMISE to give it back to you in three years. Personally I don't blame Zach for not taking the cut, its Miami's fault fo rsigning him to it in the first place. They had to know this might happen.

    However, if Zach isn't going to play ball and re-do his contract, I don't ever want to hear him complain about not having any players to help him out ever again. If he does, management should drop the blame on recent failures squarely on his shoulders too since his actions prevented them from getting more players.
     
  38. Samphin

    Samphin Dolphins Homer

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    I stated in a post at the end of the season that I felt the Thomas, Dolphins relationship would somehow end badly for both when it did in fact end. I said the same thing about Madison. I surely hope this isn't the beginning of the end for Zach.
     
  39. phinphan

    phinphan Well-Known Member

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    The question may be: Does Zach fear spikes?

    A little while ago I advocated going after Spikes, and for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Spikes gives us the short term help we need at OLB, bringing some great play making ability to the spot. However, the other reason would be with regard to eventually using Spikes to replace Zach (when his skills/health really take a nose dive), leaving the option to trade him away, or simply ditch his salary. There is every reason to believe that Spikes could play MLB, and allow the Phins to move on without skipping a beat, should Zach be removed from the equation.

    I still like the idea of Takeo Spikes, because of both the reasons listed above. However, perhaps Zach, or at least his agent see a similar scenario in the near future, and are worried about making Zach's contract a little too 'trade friendly'.
     
  40. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    The dolphins need to upgrade at OLB, but they need to do it CHEAPLY. You always have to pay attention to the big picture and the big picture tells us that we're so lopsided in salaries toward the defensive side of the ball that it is ridiculous. It doesn't have to be that way either. Offense is usually the money gulper, because you can often use young cheap guys on defense and get away with it.

    There's two sides to that "uh oh" attitude late in games when the defense was blowing leads. There's our defense's attitude, and there's the opposing offense's attitude. If the opposing offense sat on the sideline and saw another offense on the field that was moving down the field with ease and still able to put up points in the second half, then they wouldn't feel energized and invigorated to begin a late game comeback. Rather, in the second half of games the opposing team sees an offense that keeps shooting itself in the foot giving the other offense a constant feeling of "Hey this is our chance!" and with our defensive schemes always being constant with the man to man coverage, you will find that the opposing offense will slide into a rhythm and will STAY in that rhythm until they are deflated.

    My prescription is for cheap help at the OLB position in the form of a draft pick in the 2nd round (whether it be a true OLB or a DE conversion), signing a BIG name WR be it David Boston or Curtis Conway, getting help at safety with a veteran, and help on the OL through Gandy or Petitgout. Use the 3rd round draft pick to nab us a guy that can play the slot WR position. I don't like 3rd round picks at WR in general, I think if you're gonna look for a guy that you really need to make an impact it almost definitely has to be rounds 1 or 2, but round 3 guys can play slot and are usually guys with size problems falling down the boards.

    If we can't get our hands on a premium name WR and are forced to accept a Dyson, Hilliard, or Gadsden, then I say we grab Marcus Robinson to check him out in training camp, we use the money we were gonna spend at WR on a guy like Peterson or Simmons (basically whatever OLB goes unsigned in free agency the longest) and we move WR up to the 2nd round. We need help at OLB but we also need help at WR because Gadsden's arthritic and McKnight is old, and we've got too much money tied up in the defense.

    Keep an eye on the big picture. Stay away from Spikes.
     
  41. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I must admit that two years ago the idea of Zach Thomas not manning the middle of the defense would scare me sh!tless but now the idea of a guy like say Chris Claiborne in the middle seems more comfortable than it once would have been.
     
  42. dolfan87

    dolfan87 The Human Bullet

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    Rick Spielman said that he wanted to give Zach a GUARENTEED contract instead of a large signing bonus. It was in the Herald this morning. Zach would get his money, just not right now. The problem that Zach's agent probably has is, he wan't Z.T. to cash in with a large bonus, so he gets a big fat check right off the top, instead of waiting for money that's coming down the line.

    Now that's just a guess, and maybe Zach is hoping for that as well. All I know is, if we cut Thomas, then we might as well cut Perry, Ruddy, and Rodgers. Also don't re-sign Dixon, and Konrad.

    Take 2003 to rebuild, have a crap 6-10 or worse season, and kick butt in the draft next year.

    This off-season is looking bleak, but I sort of expected to have to pay the piper at some point.
     
  43. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    Well thing is that I think a guaranteed base salary doesn't count as signing bonus in the manner of prorating it through the life of the contract. So if you think of the signing bonus as sort of cut insurance, then the dolphins are offering a contract with very little insurance against being cut after this year.
     
  44. Prime Time

    Prime Time Screw You Guys..Im Goin Home!!!

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    I bet Zach resigns..
     
  45. iceblizzard69

    iceblizzard69 A True Fan

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    Zach isn't the type of guy you want to give a guaranteed contract too considering his age and the pounding he takes.
     
  46. dolfan87

    dolfan87 The Human Bullet

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    a guaranteed contract is just that...guaranteed. So let's say they do it like this.

    Sign Zach up for oh say 2.5 mill this year, 3.5 next and then 6 in 2005. These numbers are just off my head. Zach would get all of that money.

    What that does is free up 2.5 million this season, but it ultimately pays Zach a total of 12 million in three seasons. Zach (or his agent) wants the big fat 7 million signing bonus, so he gets the money now.

    It's not about pro-rating, it's just what the Dolphins want to do now. If you give Zach the 750,000 base salary(if he'll take that) he is due for being a veteran, plus spread a 8 or 9 million bonus over three years, you wind up taking a larger cap hit now, and in the end...cause those kind of deals always wind up paying a base salary of 5 or 6 mill in the last year...plus the pro-rated signing bonus.

    It's tough, but I am not going to worry about it until we either do or do not re-sign Zach.

    87
     
  47. Muck

    Muck Now completely imaginary

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    I'm just amazed at the jackass in the other thread who said Zach can't cover at all. :rolleyes:

    I also take issue with the notion that Zach whines and cries and doesn't "take one for the team". Correct me if I'm wrong, but Zach has restructured his contract for at least the past 3 or 4 seasons (and played with severe injuries) without raising a hair. Sacrificing money during the prime of his career (when he was among the league's Top 2 LBs) to help the team. Now that he's coming up on his last contract, he wants the Phins to show him some gratitude and respect. And who can blame him??

    It's early. Zach's got another year left on his current contract. So I think Zach/Drew's current figure is the starting point. It'll come down some. But for everything Zach has done for this team, I think he deserves some coin up front.
     
  48. Cranx

    Cranx A True Fan

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    I'm really, honestly beginning to think you really know nothing abou the business of football Jaj. If you cut Thomas- which is asnine thinking in and of itself- you take the entire cap hit you would have taken had you kept him since it is the last year of his contract. In other words, you cut him, and you gain no cap room and no longer have a star defender plugging the middle of your defense; yeah, that sounds really intelligent to me.

    You also said, in regards to the total overhaul of the team you seem to want to make, "Trust me this is not as expensive as it seems." Since you've shown in both this and the Boston thread that you have no clue what you're talking about since you throw out statements like that and back them up with nothing more than, well, more of your own statements, why on Earth would anyone trust you??? YOU MAKE NO SENSE!

    Please start thinking before you post.
     
  49. Jaj

    Jaj What you say?

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    Wait a minute what did you just say? You take the whole hit? Lol!!!

    You don't know anything. You don't take anything or its minimal. Clump please confirm this.

    The Boston thing is expensive. Did I state it there? No!!!!!!!
     
  50. Cranx

    Cranx A True Fan

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    Unfortunately, everyone around here has- in the matter of one afternoon, and based upon one article- decided that Zach Thomas is either a cancer, a selfish bastard, a whiner, a terrible MLB, or all of the above. I have to question whether any of these people really have ever watched Zach Thomas play and if they have, were they paying attention to the fact that he's everywhere on the field at once, making saving tackles several times a game, and runs the defense like no one else possibly could.

    It's kinda sad to see so many people just completely turn on the guy like this as he really has poured himself out on the field week in and week out, and has never gone half-a**ed at any time during his tenure here. You all need a reality check.
     

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