03 Oline better than average? Say it ain't so...

I'm new to the forums and I've been a dolphan since 1982.

Reading some of the threads about how terrible our oline was last year made me wonder if this was blown out of proportion a bit. Some here believe QB play is almost solely determined on pass protection and I've seen some mention Fielder was under constant pressure and that other QB's wouldn't have done better in the same circumstance. I don't believe that at all.

I'll preface this by saying I live in the NJ/NY area so I normally see 8-10 Dolphins games a year between our games w/ the Jets, MNF, and Sunday NF along with the occasional Dolphin game when the Jets or Giants aren't playing on Sunday. This allows me to get a good look at a lot of teams each year..

From what I saw last year, I felt the Dolphins were terrible in run blocking but adequate in pass block and certainly the worst Dolphin oline of the Wannstadt regime. So I said lets see how the 03 Dolphins faired in comparison to the rest of the NFL when it comes to pass protection. The following is a ranking of olines by sacks per passing attempt along with the teams overall QBR. Some of the following may shock you :cooldude: :

1 DET - 588 a / 11 s (1 sack per 53.45 pa) QBR 61.1
2 IND - 569 a / 19 s (1 sack per 29.94 pa) QBR 99
3 KC - 536 a / 20 s (1 sack per 26.8 pa) QBR 92.4
4 TB - 592 a / 23 s (1 sack per 25.73 pa) QBR 81.5
5 GB - 473 a / 19 s (1 sack per 24.89 pa) QBR 90.5
6 TEN - 502 a / 25 s (1 sack per 20.08 pa) QBR 100.3
7 DEN - 477 a / 25 s (1 sack per 19.08 pa) QBR 75.6
8 JAC - 515 a / 28 s (1 sack per 18.39 pa) QBR 76
9 SF - 511 a / 28 s (1 sack per 18.25 pa) QBR 84
10 SD - 525 a / 29 s (1 sack per 18.10 pa) QBR 73.1
11 CAR - 459 a / 26 s (1 sack per 17.65 pa) QBR 79.6
12 NE - 537 a / 32 s (1 sack per 16.78 pa) QBR 84.3
13 NYJ - 496 a / 31 s (1 sack per 16 pa) QBR 85.8
14 NO - 535 a / 36 s (1 sack per 14.86 pa) QBR 88.7
15 MIA - 450 a / 31 s (1 sack per 14.51 pa) QBR 72.5
*J.F. - 314 a / 19 s (1 sack per 16.52 pa) QBR 72.4
*B.G. - 130 a / 12 s (1 sack per 10.83 pa) QBR 69.2
16 CIN - 520 a / 37 s (1 sack per 14.05 pa) QBR 87.4
17 NYG - 616 a / 44 s (1 sack per 14 pa) QBR 68.4
18 STL - 600 a / 43 s (1 sack per 13.95 pa) QBR 81
19 ATL - 457 a / 33 s (1 sack per 13.84 pa) QBR 58.7
*M.V. - 100 a / 9 s (1 sack per 11.11 pa) QBR 69 - 2003
*M.V. - 421 a / 33 s (1 sack per 12.75 pa) QBR 81.6 - 2002
20 DAL - 507 a / 37 s (1 sack per 13.70 pa) QBR 71.4
21 PIT - 532 a / 42 s (1 sack per 12.66 pa) QBR 76.4
22 CLE - 505 a / 40 s (1 sack per 12.62 pa) QBR 75.2
23 MIN - 520 a / 42 s (1 sack per 12.27 pa) QBR 99
24 WAS - 569 a / 19 s (1 sack per 29.94 pa) QBR 73.3
25 HOU - 439 a / 36 s (1 sack per 12.19 pa) QBR 69.7
26 AZ - 533 a / 44 s (1 sack per 12.11 pa) QBR 68.9
27 OAK - 521 a / 43 s (1 sack per 12.11 pa) QBR 65
28 SEA - 521 a / 43 s (1 sack per 12.11 pa) QBR 88.2
29 CHI - 515 a / 43 s (1 sack per 11.97 pa) QBR 61
30 PHI - 484 a / 43 s (1 sack per 11.25 pa) QBR 80.5
31 BAL - 415 a / 42 s (1 sack per 9.88 pa) QBR 64.7
32 BUF - 483 a / 50 s (1 sack per 9.66 pa) QBR 69.4

As you can see, I took the liberty to highlight some notables. Detroit #1 in pass protection by almost double the ratio of any other team: amazing. And to think it didn't help out their QB play one bit. Some say Jay F eludes the rush and makes our oline look better. But JF is not a scrambling QB on par with Michael Vick, Donovan McNabb, Daunte Culpepper or Aaron Brooks, all of whom had worst sack ratios. JF sack ratio is on par with Tom Brady's. Now Brady doesn't run as much as JF but he eludes the rush better than most in the pocket by taking a few steps to buy some time and finding an open target. Ask any NE fan and they'll probably agree. So how much better was NE's pass protection during the regular season compared to ours?

There were a lot of effective pass offenses in the league w/ sack ratios worst that Miami's and particularly JF's. Notables: PHI-30, SEA -28, MIN-23, STL-18.

5 of the 12 playoff teams have sack ratios worst than the Dolphins.

Now you can say the Dolphins receivers suck. But Chambers is an excellent receiver, McMichael is a very good pass catching tight end, and both McKnight & D. Thompson had season in the 700 -900 yards receiving range with other teams. My conclusion is that JF is leaving plays on the field that most QB would connect on.

I was watching the Monday night Buffalo game from 2003 last night (17-7 W).
You can chalk this game up as a win for JF as that's what it was. But the game encapsulates all that is wrong with JF and our overall QB play. It's the 3rd quarter, the score is 7-0 and J already has an int in scoring position in the first half. JF literally hasn't been touched the whole game. Ricky has run the ball about 20 times for 50+ yards against a punishing Buffalo D. JF play actions, no one is near him as Buffalo is playing the run all the way, and JF overthows a streaking Chambers down the middle of the field for a definite touchdown as Chambers has Antoine Winfield beat by 5 yards. The score would have been 14-0 in a game in which Buffalo couldn't score.

Fourth quarter 10-0 and JF throws an interception on a flea flicker? Luckily it was ruled incomplete (even though it should have been complete). The next play, he throws off his back foot in the face of a blitz and Nate Clements takes it for 6. Now the score is 10-7 in the 4th and we are killing RW by running him into Buffalo's D. Now it looked like it bothered the Bills more but I believe RW was different for the rest of the year after those 42 punishing carries. I personally believe we could have saved him the punishment if our QB could play pitch and catch in a game where RW was the obvious focus of the Buf D and I believe the rest of the league used that game as a blueprint on how to defend us.

In conclusion, I would like to say that JF is not an adequate QB. There are things he does well, i.e., designed rollouts to the right (he's very accurate on these plays), quick slants, passes in the flat, and QB draws; pretty much plays which don't require him to go through his progressions. Everything else required of the QB position he can't do physically on a consistent basis. We cannot continue to blame his inadequate physical skills on poor protection. Miami ranked 15th in pass protection overall last year (including the sack rate of the human statue BG) and JF personally ranked on par with NE & Tom Brady in terms of sack per pass attempt. We can all agree that last year was the worst Dolphan oline of the Wannstadt regime and we were still above average. :eek:

If somehow JF is our QB this year, I will continue to root for his success and the Dolphans success. But we must realize our offense will be limited and may eventually cost us in our run towards the playoffs & superbowl. We will only be efficient at the things he does well, while being wildly inconsistent when it come to making the necessary plays a QB must make with his arm and accuracy.

I don't hate JF but we as Dolphans deserve better from the QB position. I love his toughness, but we don't need him to be a linebacker; we need a QB who can make plays with their arm. I wonder if any other team has an unequivocal starter for the past four years who isn't a "franchise" QB or who has an overall QB rating as bad as JF.:shakeno: Maybe someone can look it up. It is officially time to move on Dolphans. Peace.

Nice first post John Offerdahl. But I'm still asking the question of whether or not Feeley is the answer. I guess we'll see when the season is under way and Feeley beats Jay for the starting spot.....(or when Jay inevitably gets injured and Feeley steps in to replace him).

Great Post!!! You did an excellent job of researching some useful information which gives us all something to think about during this boring offseason. Some may say that even though we pass blocked decently, we run blocked very poorly, and since we are run-first team that messed up our whole offensive strategy. I guess that's why there was such an emphasis this year to get run blockers...and for the most part I think Spielman succeeded.

Don't forget...we're also a very basic, vanilla offense compared to most. Which means we don't use a lot of multiple wide receiver sets. Its a whole lot easier to pass block when you keep in a tight end and 2 backs. Our offense is also so conservative that we play not to lose, instead of play to win. In a conservative offense, turnovers and sacks are absolutely deadly. Even though we gave up too many, we still did a better job than most NFL teams.

Thanks phatmatt,

Hopefully Feeley has the skills to take advantage of our skill position players and according to some people here who have seen him play, he does.

Lack Of Arm Strength Lack Of Arm Strength Lack Of Arm Strength!!! That's what I see is the problem with our QB the last 4 seasons, But That being said........ I also am compelled to believe that it's more than just Feidler. As bad as he has been at times and as bad as we have all wanted someone to take his place look at what has happened when someone did......... The two guys that took over for him when he went down were twice as bad as he was, Lucas...... was supposed to be a liable backup QB in the NFL with even more mobility than Feidler and we all know what happened there. And the Other guy (Greise) was a solid starter for a while in Denver, even earned a trip to the pro bowl, and he was horrible.......... So is it the scheme the Dolphins run, is it Wandstedt's play not to lose philosophy, or has the franchise just catered to Feidlers style or what???? I don't know, but it's kinda scary to think that A better QB can't do a better job than Feidler does with this team

Wow that's a lot of wasted time for a stat that is pretty much useless. Your argument about scrambling QB's is only minor. It's not about the ability to scramble it's about the ability to be aware of your surroundings which along with toughness is Jay's best ability. Scrambling and pocket presence are 2 very different things. He could always feel the pressure coming and get outta there.

You also totally forget to mention the fact that the OL was in max protection with double TE sets a lot which restricted the use of McMicheal in the passing game. This OL completely hamstrung the offense and the QB's were always under pressure. It was completely pathetic watching the passrush that came after the QB and then watching our vaunted DL get half the pressure.

No coincidence that Norv went to Oakland and despite their offensive line being better then ours they still went and spent their first and second rounder on OL.

You can give me all the variations of sack counts in the world and you're still not going to convince me we had a quality line last year. You fail to praise Fiedler's scrambling abilities with the better scramblers in this league, but instead compare him to Tom Brady who's nowhere near the athlete Jay is. You also fail to note the inordinate difference in our run/pass ratio which keeps the sack count down.

Those numbers you just tried to manipulate into making us think we had a quality O-line are worthless - we dumped every single one of those lineman in favor of aquiring younger and more athletic components. That enough tells me. Hell, our coaches and players mentioned week after week how struggling the line was.

FinFan57,

Thanks for the compliment. I was hoping we as fans can move past the idea that the oline absolves the QB of the responsibility of making plays. Hopefully we can dialogue about our offensive problems without denegrating an oline whose pass protection was far from bad in 03.

As for the conservative nature of our offense, I usually use Norv Turner's Redskins offense as a comparable goal for the Dolphans. That year, I believe it was 2000, Connell & Westbrook each had over 1,000 yards w/ high ypc averages. Stephan Davis ran the ball for 1400 yds and B. Johnson threw for 4,000 yards. This was same offense we used last year. Run first and hit the intermediate and deep passes available through play action. We would look so good if we have a QB who can hit those passes with regularity and our O. Coordinator would call those plays more often.

VanDolPhan said:

Wow that's a lot of wasted time for a stat that is pretty much useless. Your argument about scrambling QB's is only minor. It's not about the ability to scramble it's about the ability to be aware of your surroundings which along with toughness is Jay's best ability. Scrambling and pocket presence are 2 very different things. He could always feel the pressure coming and get outta there.

You also totally forget to mention the fact that the OL was in max protection with double TE sets a lot which restricted the use of McMicheal in the passing game. This OL completely hamstrung the offense and the QB's were always under pressure. It was completely pathetic watching the passrush that came after the QB and then watching our vaunted DL get half the pressure.

No coincidence that Norv went to Oakland and despite their offensive line being better then ours they still went and spent their first and second rounder on OL.

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Same thing I was thinking. :yeahthat:

enigmatics said:

You fail to praise Fiedler's scrambling abilities

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I agree, Fiedlers ability to get out of the pocket prevented some sacks. The O-lines biggest problem was run blocking. Ricky was hit behind or at the line waaaaaaaaay to many times.

VanDoplan,

I said this oline was the worst oline in Wannstadts regime. Some say Jay's mobility allows him to escape sacks so I showed QB's with better mobility, higher sack rates and better QB productivity. Scambling and pocket presence aren't the same and Jay's pocket presence is bad. He may escape the rush, like most QB's in this league must do, but he doesn't effectively buy time to pass the ball like Brady does. He either takes off running instead of looking downfield like a QB is suppose to do. He doesn't go through progressions. He leaves plays on the field.

And now the argument is that the Dolphans max protected... I guess no other club did that either?

Anyway, this wasn't meant to absolve the worst oline of the Wannstadt regime, this was meant to show JF didn't have someone in his face every play like some have claimed. And QB's who played much better than him did.

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts every day would be Christmas. You say how good our offense would look if Jay could hit those passes. We know he can't and the teams we play also know that he can't rendering play action useless. Norv stopped calling those passes because he knew that a pick was as likely as a completion so we overworked Rickey. By the way Offerdahl thank you for doing a ton of research and giving all of us something cool to think about. Great post IMO.

enigmatics,

I directly addressed run/pass ration as a means to keep sacks down. That's what the rankings are based on sacks per pass attempt.

Jay is not on par it the better scramblers of the league. He won't break any 40 yard runs anytime soon.

Ask a NE fan how many sacks Brady avoids via his movement and pocket presence. Nobody is probowler on that line this year and they will upgrade if the opportunity affords itself in the near future.

5offerdahl6 said:

VanDoplan,

I said this oline was the worst oline in Wannstadts regime. Some say Jay's mobility allows him to escape sacks so I showed QB's with better mobility, higher sack rates and better QB productivity. Scambling and pocket presence aren't the same and Jay's pocket presence is bad. He may escape the rush, like most QB's in this league must do, but he doesn't effectively buy time to pass the ball like Brady does. He either takes off running instead of looking downfield like a QB is suppose to do. He doesn't go through progressions. He leaves plays on the field.

And now the argument is that the Dolphans max protected... I guess no other club did that either?

Anyway, this wasn't meant to absolve the worst oline of the Wannstadt regime, this was meant to show JF didn't have someone in his face every play like some have claimed. And QB's who played much better than him did.

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Buddy..................did you watch the friggin' games????? Did you???? Please, tell me I'm imagining things. Although I liked your point about Jay perhaps not going through correct progressions when he's scrambling (that is a legitimate comment), but he shouldn't have to be going through those progessions all the time in the first place.

Seriously, I saw every single play this year for that team and it was UGLY. I don't need your skewed sack counts to convince me they were a quality unit. Funny how our GM and coaching staff felt the need to address the problematic O-line so quickly and leave Jay Fiedler in contention for a starting spot. The whole chicken or the egg theory........they felt the O-line problems bore more of the burden than QB play.

5offerdahl6 said:

enigmatics,

I directly addressed run/pass ration as a means to keep sacks down. That's what the rankings are based on sacks per pass attempt.

Jay is not on par it the better scramblers of the league. He won't break any 40 yard runs anytime soon.

Ask a NE fan how many sacks Brady avoids via his movement and pocket presence. Nobody is probowler on that line this year and they will upgrade if the opportunity affords itself in the near future.

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Again, watch the games!!!!!!!!! Brady's game is 3 step drops, short on the money passes. BB gameplanned to strengths. We gameplanned to theories we started in minicamp last year where we said once again we'd run the ball then use playaction to throw deep instead of using Jay's athleticism to create plays and let the game come to him. Run, run, run, run, run, and the oh let's throw deep. It was a very inconsistent gameplan.

Not only that, Matt Light, the Patriots LT is damn near Pro Bowl level.......read the reports on him bub. He also shut down Jason every game last year. I also remember their line playing specifically well against a monsterous pass rush in the Panthers. Give credit where credit is due.