03 Oline better than average? Say it ain't so... | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

03 Oline better than average? Say it ain't so...

5offerdahl6 said:
I acknowledged JF can scramble and evade the rush. What I said was he's not on the same level as DMcNabb, Culpepper, M. Vick, A. Brooks, etc... when it comes to evading the rush. Which leads to my point: If McNabb, Culpepper & Brooks show much better escapability than JF, and the Dolphins pass protection is so bad, how did all three get sacked at a higher rate than JF last year? Does it mean their oline's pass protection is worst than JF's? If that's the case, how did they play so well despite worst pass protection? I thought QB's couldn't play well under adverse conditions and pressure?

You say it's no secret Jay left plays on the field. Well, that's just unacceptable from the QB position IMO.
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Is about awerness(Pocket presence).Jay is aware of the rush and how many times did Jay just threw the ball out of bound.You guys are running out of argument.
 
islandah,

I totally agree. I said in my first post, after the 42 carry Buffalo game (which wouldn't have been necessary if JF woud have hit the plays he should have hit) Ricky was never the same afterwards. Our QB must hit the plays to keep defenses honest, and if we don't, RW will be done sooner rather than later.
 
5offerdahl6 said:
I said this oline was the worst oline in Wannstadts regime. Some say Jay's mobility allows him to escape sacks so I showed QB's with better mobility, higher sack rates and better QB productivity. Scambling and pocket presence aren't the same and Jay's pocket presence is bad. He may escape the rush, like most QB's in this league must do, but he doesn't effectively buy time to pass the ball like Brady does. He either takes off running instead of looking downfield like a QB is suppose to do. He doesn't go through progressions. He leaves plays on the field.

And now the argument is that the Dolphans max protected... I guess no other club did that either?

Anyway, this wasn't meant to absolve the worst oline of the Wannstadt regime, this was meant to show JF didn't have someone in his face every play like some have claimed. And QB's who played much better than him did.
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This line has sucked for over three years!

The first game I ever viewed live was the Ravens wildcard game of 2002. The pressure up the middle was absolutely stunning to witness. This past year I spent the entire offseason bitching about the O-line. Some berated me with the fact the Ricky had gained 1800 yards behind the same line. That stat never spoke for the pass protection nor the ability to drive, position, angle, trap, or any other block. IMO that stat spoke for Ricky Williams and Norv Turner's abilities.

December 29, 2003 Bill Bellichek showed the NFL how to defend the Dolphins rush attack. It's very simple. Ricky Williams is a premier running back and he will get his yards based on the amount of carries. The challenge that Bellichek made was for the Dolphins to throw the ball. Watch the replays of the games you have on tape. Seldom do the outside linebackers widen. Watch the New England games of 2003 specifically. There was a reason why Norv continually called McMichael's number. That was what Bellichek was giving him. Harrison on McMichael was the mismatch. The linebackers were dedicated to the run.

The Dolphins failed as a result of the lack of investment, investment in a QB, an offensive line, and at the WR positions. It's a little late to be dissecting why they failed or who failed. The fact is that they failed. Thanks to the organization and most importantly Rick Spielman the change has occurred. Let's see if Dave can inspire this talented group of individuals to get the job done.
 
minus said:
Jay is aware of the rush and how many times did Jay just throw the ball out of bounds.
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That is about the only reason I still have doubt about what Jay can do. He's been working behind a horrid offensive line.

Still I relugate his asset to just that of a quick decision maker. His inaccuracy with the downfield pass cannot be denied. We've all seen it and to tell you the truth, I'm tired of it.
 
Jay can scramble b/c when his receivers are wide open 40yds down the field, he can't get the ball there. He'd be better off running the option with the way some of you laud his scrambling ability and totally ignore the fact that he has a weak arm and misses his receivers often. You're killing me.
 
minus said:
Is about awerness(Pocket presence).Jay is aware of the rush and how many times did Jay just threw the ball out of bound.You guys are running out of argument.
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And no other QB has to do this in the league?

He may be able to evade the rush but his pocket presence sucks. Pocket presense entails moving around in the pocket, avioding rushers with a step or two and hitting a play downfield. He extends the play but rarely looks to make a play down the field after extending the play, and when he does try to make a play under these circumstances, his physical limitations usually lead to incompletions or interceptions, i.e., in O.T. versus NE in 03.
 
5offerdahl6 said:
I acknowledged JF can scramble and evade the rush. What I said was he's not on the same level as DMcNabb, Culpepper, M. Vick, A. Brooks, etc... when it comes to evading the rush. Which leads to my point: If McNabb, Culpepper & Brooks show much better escapability than JF, and the Dolphins pass protection is so bad, how did all three get sacked at a higher rate than JF last year? Does it mean their oline's pass protection is worst than JF's? If that's the case, how did they play so well despite worst pass protection? I thought QB's couldn't play well under adverse conditions and pressure?

You say it's no secret Jay left plays on the field. Well, that's just unacceptable from the QB position IMO.
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It's an undeniable truth that plays are left on the field by all QB's. The debate should be how many are being left by Jay. IMO that gets skewed because of the blame he takes for the ills and struggles of an offense that's never clicked on all cylinders. Again, go back and watch those first 6 games in 2002 and you'll see what I'm waiting to see again. When the running game was working for us(2002), we didn't have recievers........only a man named Chambers who was still feeling the affects of his concussion, no Gadsden, McMichael disappearing (he was only a rookie anyways). Then last year, the left side of our line was ravaged by a recovering Jamie Nails, no Mark Dixon, a rookie LT who was giving up big time sacks in big time games, no running game, no second reciever, Chambers being doubled and tripled.

The thing I think with you guys is you've got this image in your head that we've had a powerhouse offense on the field and Jay's missing all these playmakers all the time. The only playmaker Jay can throw to is Chambers.........that's it........don't argue it, nobody else you can list me has ever been mentioned in the same breath. McMichael is close, but look when all the sports scouts list the top TE's in the game.......he's not even in the upper tier. Now we've got a guy in Boston who most certainly will change the way defenses play us, a proven commodity. IMO, if Fiedler were to start this year, this will be the season we get an adequate gauge provided he doesn't get injured.
 
ZOD said:
This line has sucked for over three years!

The first game I ever viewed live was the Ravens wildcard game of 2002. The pressure up the middle was absolutely stunning to witness. This past year I spent the entire offseason bitching about the O-line. Some berated me with the fact the Ricky had gained 1800 yards behind the same line. That stat never spoke for the pass protection nor the ability to drive, position, angle, trap, or any other block. IMO that stat spoke for Ricky Williams and Norv Turner's abilities.

December 29, 2003 Bill Bellichek showed the NFL how to defend the Dolphins rush attack. It's very simple. Ricky Williams is a premier running back and he will get his yards based on the amount of carries. The challenge that Bellichek made was for the Dolphins to throw the ball. Watch the replays of the games you have on tape. Seldom do the outside linebackers widen. Watch the New England games of 2003 specifically. There was a reason why Norv continually called McMichael's number. That was what Bellichek was giving him. Harrison on McMichael was the mismatch. The linebackers were dedicated to the run.

The Dolphins failed as a result of the lack of investment, investment in a QB, an offensive line, and at the WR positions. It's a little late to be dissecting why they failed or who failed. The fact is that they failed. Thanks to the organization and most importantly Rick Spielman the change has occurred. Let's see if Dave can inspire this talented group of individuals to get the job done.
Click to expand...


Ding ding ding!!!! We have a winner. When we made Jay our starter we failed to get him the right pieces on offense which would maximize his limited potential. IMO this is the year we get to see what would happen if we had adequate pieces.
 
ZOD said:
This line has sucked for over three years!

The first game I ever viewed live was the Ravens wildcard game of 2002. The pressure up the middle was absolutely stunning to witness. This past year I spent the entire offseason bitching about the O-line. Some berated me with the fact the Ricky had gained 1800 yards behind the same line. That stat never spoke for the pass protection nor the ability to drive, position, angle, trap, or any other block. IMO that stat spoke for Ricky Williams and Norv Turner's abilities.

December 29, 2003 Bill Bellichek showed the NFL how to defend the Dolphins rush attack. It's very simple. Ricky Williams is a premier running back and he will get his yards based on the amount of carries. The challenge that Bellichek made was for the Dolphins to throw the ball. Watch the replays of the games you have on tape. Seldom do the outside linebackers widen. Watch the New England games of 2003 specifically. There was a reason why Norv continually called McMichael's number. That was what Bellichek was giving him. Harrison on McMichael was the mismatch. The linebackers were dedicated to the run.

The Dolphins failed as a result of the lack of investment, investment in a QB, an offensive line, and at the WR positions. It's a little late to be dissecting why they failed or who failed. The fact is that they failed. Thanks to the organization and most importantly Rick Spielman the change has occurred. Let's see if Dave can inspire this talented group of individuals to get the job done.
Click to expand...
ZOD,

I totally agree with you. I wasn't satisfied with the oline. Since Wannstadt's been here, they've never been a great or very good oline that moves people off the ball and doesn't let the QB get touched. They played good in 02 when RW ran wild and JNails played at a probowl level. Yeah they sucked, but that's a relative judgement when it comes to the NFL as a whole. All I'm pointing out is other lines played worst in 03 and their QB's played better than ours.

Speilman went out and got a QB he believes can take advantage of the weapons afforded him on this team. If Feeley can't do it, and I believe he can, that's Speilman's fault.
 
5offerdahl6 said:
ZOD,

I totally agree with you. I wasn't satisfied with the oline. Since Wannstadt's been here, they've never been a great or very good oline that moves people off the ball and doesn't let the QB get touched. They played good in 02 when RW ran wild and JNails played at a probowl level. Yeah they sucked, but that's a relative judgement when it comes to the NFL as a whole. All I'm pointing out is other lines played worst in 03 and their QB's played better than ours.

Speilman went out and got a QB he believes can take advantage of the weapons afforded him on this team. If Feeley can't do it, and I believe he can, that's Speilman's fault.
Click to expand...

True that some of those QB's did play better.......... but let's face it......Fiedler is never going to be Vick, Culpepper, McNabb.......any of them. In order for a guy like Fiedler to be successful, he's got to have all the right pieces. This is just fact. This is the strategy they have put into place in case he starts or Feeley starts for that matter.
 
5offerdahl6 said:
VanDoplan,
I said this oline was the worst oline in Wannstadts regime. Some say Jay's mobility allows him to escape sacks so I showed QB's with better mobility, higher sack rates and better QB productivity. Scambling and pocket presence aren't the same and Jay's pocket presence is bad. He may escape the rush, like most QB's in this league must do, but he doesn't effectively buy time to pass the ball like Brady does. He either takes off running instead of looking downfield like a QB is suppose to do. He doesn't go through progressions. He leaves plays on the field.

And now the argument is that the Dolphans max protected... I guess no other club did that either?

Anyway, this wasn't meant to absolve the worst oline of the Wannstadt regime, this was meant to show JF didn't have someone in his face every play like some have claimed. And QB's who played much better than him did.
Click to expand...

Ok your argument was about the o-line. I couldn't give 2 craps about what Jay did with it later. It's not a Jay thread. The pure fact is that he avoided sacks and does so better then most in the league. Hell when Griese got in there that became plain and obvious what happens to a sitting duck behind that line. Vick, McNabb etc create more problems because they are trying to buy more time and hold onto the ball longer then they should. Again this comes down to awareness of pressure, but you can in no way sit here and claim that Philly's O-line is worse then ours.

As far as your response to the max protection can we get some more weak sauce with that statement? We were in max protection a hell of a lot more then a lot of teams are. This is why McMicheal only gets thrown to about 5-6 times in a game max. It's also why Donald Lee gets a fair bit of playing time. Very few teams spend a lot of time in max protection.

This Oline has been trouble for years. Heck I can remember the articles proclaiming trouble in the future because of a fundamental lack of being able to groom our young linemen. The media predicted this happening 3-4 years ago and yet Wanny continued to ignore the line and what few picks we put into the OL only Wade turned out ok.
 
enigmatics said:
Ding ding ding!!!! We have a winner. When we made Jay our starter we failed to get him the right pieces on offense which would maximize his limited potential. IMO this is the year we get to see what would happen if we had adequate pieces.
Click to expand...
So we have to build the perfect offense and hope no one gets injured to "maximize his limited potential". You act like every QB in the league is afforded the perfect situation. Their is only one answer to this: Get a QB who doesn't have JF's "limited potential".:rolleyes: One that can make the necessary throws a QB must make to utilitize a playbook and threaten a defense. Why wait to see if this talented 04 team can make JF look good by catching quick slants & screens. Utilize the playbook. Become diverse. Chambers is running free again. Hit him in stride.:cool:
 
5offerdahl6 said:
So we have to build the perfect offense and hope no one gets injured to "maximize his limited potential". You act like every QB in the league is afforded the perfect situation. Their is only one answer to this: Get a QB who doesn't have JF's "limited potential".:rolleyes: One that can make the necessary throws a QB must make to utilitize a playbook and threaten a defense. Why wait to see if this talented 04 team can make JF look good by catching quick slants & screens. Utilize the playbook. Become diverse. Chambers is running free again. Hit him in stride.:cool:
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Who said perfect???? I said "pieces" wrong p-word bub. And regardless of who you or anyone else wanted in at QB, Fiedler was the man........but he wasn't put into a situation where he could succeed, do to his limitations. This is just truth, I'm not making excuses for is. But then again I differ from some, I think Fiedler can still be a serviceable QB when there's no MVP for us to put on our squad.
 
5offerdahl6 said:
They sucked at run blocking and were adequate at pass blocking in relation to the rest of the league.
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The offense was geared towards running the ball. You have provided support for their pass blocking ability. How about researching their ability to run block?

Isn't that like putting Marino behind a line that run blocks like hell but keeps getting Marino killed?

So what!
 
VanDolPhan said:
Ok your argument was about the o-line. I couldn't give 2 craps about what Jay did with it later. It's not a Jay thread. The pure fact is that he avoided sacks and does so better then most in the league. Hell when Griese got in there that became plain and obvious what happens to a sitting duck behind that line. Vick, McNabb etc create more problems because they are trying to buy more time and hold onto the ball longer then they should. Again this comes down to awareness of pressure, but you can in no way sit here and claim that Philly's O-line is worse then ours.

As far as your response to the max protection can we get some more weak sauce with that statement? We were in max protection a hell of a lot more then a lot of teams are. This is why McMicheal only gets thrown to about 5-6 times in a game max. It's also why Donald Lee gets a fair bit of playing time. Very few teams spend a lot of time in max protection.

This Oline has been trouble for years. Heck I can remember the articles proclaiming trouble in the future because of a fundamental lack of being able to groom our young linemen. The media predicted this happening 3-4 years ago and yet Wanny continued to ignore the line and what few picks we put into the OL only Wade turned out ok.
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The argument was meant to show the correlation between oline pass protection and QB play. That's why the team's overall QB rating is listed also.

McMichael is on of the leading recievers amongst TE's, he gets the ball more than most of the TE's in the league and you're saying he's limited. And max protection isn't a bad thing. Ask Job Gibbs about it.

Firstly, I'm not claiming anything about Philly line other than what happened in 03. Did Jay avoid sacks better than DMcNabb? If so, why did McNabb get sacked at a rate that was 30th in the league while JF was sacked on a rate that would rank between 12th & 13th? As a matter of fact, McNabb was sacked on a rate comparable to the human statue BG. I put both JF & BG sacks per pass play in the stats. You act like I'm trying to hide something?

How can you say it's not a Jay thread. I started the thread and made direct correlations to JF play and the oline's play.
 
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