Killing Time 10/ Wale IS NOT a Product of JT | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Killing Time 10/ Wale IS NOT a Product of JT

Disnardo

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I apologize for starting another Wale thread, but I will not just give my views, there are college stats and opinions as well to show my case...

I have in the past, stated my opinion on Wale, and like some of us, its that he is a product of playing opposite of JT. That statement is based on the history of other DE's and DTs who have played with this team and moved on, and ultimately not being as productive as when they played here.

Lately, I have been changing my mind on Wale's situation, specially after conducting a little research on his college playing years, on his stats before being picked up by this team...

So the different views that are pointed around on this board is...

1- Wale is not deserving of $$$ that J Kearse, KBG and JT deserve...

2- Wale has not had the time to prove himself worthy...

3- Wale is just a product of JT as others have been...

I checked on Wale's record at Indiana University, a member of the Big Ten. He finished his footbal career in college in the middle of his senior football season with an ACL tear, a possible career ending injury.

-> He ended up with 34 sacks in 3 1/2 seasons in College.

-> At the end of his 3rd year in Indiana he was already IU's all time sack leader with 26. He has already 24.5 sacks after his 2nd year in the NFL as a starter.

-> Up until August of 2001 (from articles researched) he was 5th in the BIG TEN all time sack leaders. He would haved moved up if it was not for his injury. I have not researched, to see if anyone has surpassed him since.

-> From what articles researched, he was a likely late 1st round draft pick to early 2nd rounder, before his injury.

So that's what I found out about his track record in College, and the Dolphins (DW) signed him in 2000, based on what he accomplished before his injury.

Wale spent the 2000 and part of the 2001 off-season re-habing, waiting to get on the NFL playing field. His first, chance came in the 2001 Hall of Fame Game, where he played a little over a quarter. Guess what, he got his 1st NFL sack against the STL Offense that propelled that team to the SB that year.

Now lets look and compare his record against those other top DE's that he is targeting for $$$

KBG- 3 years (avg/season)
-> 47 games= 39 total tkls, 11.8 sks, 3 frcd fmbls, 2.3 pass defnd...

J Kearse- 4 years (avg/season)
-> 62 games= 47 total tkls, 11.3 sks, 5 frcd fmbls, 4 pass defnd...

J Taylor- 7 years (avg/season)
-> 108 games= 56 total tkls, 10.2 sks, 3 frcd fmbls, 6 pass defnd...

A Ogunleye- 2 years (avg/season)
-> 32 games= 55 total tkls, 12 sks, 2 frcd fmbls, 4 pass defnd...

So there you have it, now comes time for me to give my opinion and answer those views stated at the begining of this post...

3- Wale is just a product of JT as others have been...

Well let's see, K Mixon, since he left MIA, has shown to be a good run stopper as DE, with an average of 60 total tkls/season but and average pass rusher with 4 sks/season. L Bromell has shown to still be what he was when he played here, a less than avg run stopper (24 total tkls/season) and an avg pass rusher (6 sks/season). They were both shuffled in and out of the line due to the Defensive play calling, they had one strenght individually, pass or run stopping.

As a run stopper Wale has been above avg and as a pass rusher he has showed he is very good. His record with the team is definitely better than Mixon and Bromel, when they participated, and his College record is there as proof that he has the talent and skills.

Did anyone else other than Muck and myself watched those clips of Wale just throwing around one of Buffalo's 300+ lbs linesman? I have never seen JT do that. I also have seen Wale speed rush to get to the QB. I hope Muck or someone else can prove me wrong and show me. JT uses just speed to get to the QB and I have seen many Tackles hold on to JT.

Wale is shown to have the skills and talent of a great pass rushing DE, he is not a product of JT. They both seem to compliment each other and cause headaches for opposing Offenses.

2- Wale has not had the time to prove himself worthy...

Now this one is very debatable, he had a good year in 2002, so what does he do? He then leads the AFC in sacks (2003) the next year. If anything, this point of view, I would have to add, how good can he be? Realistically we can all wait and see if he will have a bad year, like JT had in 99 with 2.5 sacks in that season. But, we believed in JT and he responded with 14 sacks the following season.

JK had avgd 13 sacks, JT had avgd 7 sacks, and Wale has had avgd 12 sacks starting in their 1st 2 seasons. Bromell and Mixon were really never considered starters, they were shuffled in to spell each other because they each have different strengths. Wale has proven to be an every down player, and IMO has proven himself worthy.

But, the bottom line on this issue IMO, is that he should have played his last year under contract and then negotiate a new contract, and this is the opinion I place in front of you.

1- Wale is not deserving of $$$ that J Kearse, KBG and JT deserve...

Well, what else to say, other than I totally disagree with this statement. I have stated evrything I wanted to say about Wale, and there is no way I will cut and paste the above info.

Bottom line on this view, is that I believe barring injuries, Wale will get better, and might probably be a better DE in the long run, than JK, JT and KBG. Defensive coaches normally plan for 1 good DE per team not 2, and I hope he and the FO can negotiate so we wont hurt our negotiations with CC next year...

:peace:
 
Three of these in one day. Man, you really do have a lot of time to kill. :)

Ok seriously, I'm gonna read this soon as I get home. :)
 
Muck said:
Three of these in one day. Man, you really do have a lot of time to kill. :)

Ok seriously, I'm gonna read this soon as I get home. :)

:lol: Thanks Muck, but I have been working on them for the last month and just finished cleaning them up...
 
If you use sacks, or any stat, to rate DL your watching the sport.
 
Damn dude, you have alot of time to kill. :D

Good job. :cooldude:
 
Nice post. (I'll have to go look at the others)

I think a significant reason that people question the relationship between JT and AO is that the other 'elite' ends you mention generally have not played opposite and end of JT's caliber. Now, did JT cause AO's success? I don't think so, but he has to be a contributing factor, as does the excellent coverage in the secondary, etc. It is, after all, a team game. I think Miami is an ideal situation for his as well, except that another team might be able to throw more money at him.

On the flip side, I believe JT will benefit from playing opposite AO as well. It's tempting to interpret the stats to say he already has. Last year, teams seemed to slide the blocking to take advantage of JT in the first half of the season, and AO took advantage of that. However, at the end of the season, AO began getting more attention and JT's sacks increased.

I don't think anyone will argue with the fact that it's a 'dream team' DE situation for Miami. And, AO might be the better DE down the road (but he's got a way to go in my book, JT has proven to be the complete package)

The real issue that I see is "Can the team afford to pay Ogunleye top dollar, and have two expensive DEs on the roster?" I'm not a cap guru, maybe we can. But the team already has a documented imbalance between offensive cap spending and defensive cap spending. We have players like Ricky Williams, Chris Chambers, Randy McMichael and Patrick Surtain who will be looking for big contracts in the very near future.

I'd love to sign Ogunleye and watch what should be the best tandum in the league. But I also wonder what impact this will have in the long run, and I wonder if there will be locker room consequences to a deal signed now. Jason Taylor played for the RFA tender, as I recall. Other players (such as Madison) have publically sent the message "Just get to camp"

I hope this works out and he's there, and the team finds a fiscally responsible way to make that happen.
 
Disnardo, do you think we should give Wale what he wants with an eye towards letting JT go the following season??

I ask this because your post seems to suggest that he is better than JT.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.
 
inFINSible said:
Disnardo, do you think we should give Wale what he wants with an eye towards letting JT go the following season??

I ask this because your post seems to suggest that he is better than JT.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

No, he is not currently better than JT, I believe they are neck-in-neck though, I thought I wrote that he will probably be better in the future 1-3 years (in the long run). We just need to realize how many years does JT have left to play at such a high level? I did not find anything on JT's college stats, don't know if he put his name on Akrons record books or the College's division record books.

At least I found Wale did, he has the College records to prove that he is not a byproduct:lol:, All American in his senior year and such, and so far has not shown to be another T Mandarich or 1st round busts...

Also, Wale got 21% of his season sacks in December, while JT got 54% of them in the same month. Kind of leads me to believe that opposing Offenses were concentrating more on Wale than JT, this is where they complement each other...

I don't want to loose out on CC or RW in the next year or 2, but it could be concievable that the FO can negotiate on a good # that both can be happy with...
 
Pretty good thread. Personally i belive Kearse money is way too high to pay somoen wit 2 years of semi or good sucsess. KGB money on the other hand doesnt sound to bad. I dont like your stats as a way to judge talent, because it makes Adawale look better then Jason. Tht alone doesnt make the stas very credible in my book, becuz Talyor is deffantly ahead of Ogunleye at this point, and for a couple more years to come. Im not someone who thinks Wale is a product of JT, but i am someone who wouldnt pay him Kearse money. Even tho he mite not b a product of JT, others could such as David Bowens. A consitent run stopping DE tht gets 8-10 sacks a year aside JT would b sufficent. Altho i would LOVE to sign AO, in my mind hes not ahead of CC on the priority list. That doesnt have anything to do with there skill, just the fact DE is so much deeper then WR on this team. Bottom line is id love to have AO, and if they could sign CC and give Wale KGB money(itd b possible, but hard) im all for it. Hes a very good DE thtd b a valuable assest to this team, and does deserve high paid money, but it it will b wit the Fins only time will tell (i believe they will work something out).
 
as much as we spent on D as opposed to O, i think that if they can find a happy medium with wale they should book him long term. In four years he may be the best player on our Defense. He is the youngest of our stars on D and i would hope he can continue to contribute when some of our older defensive all stars begin to decline. Also with the way contracts are structured players don't get mega base salaries untill their last couple of years.

My point is he is a young up and coming star. We should sign him even if it means we have to drop some aging players years from now. If we don't keep our young talent we will have to rebuild in the near future.

That being said i believe both wale and CC can be signed, though it may be tight. Possible cuts that could be made to make room for the both of them include Seau, Madison, T. Bowens and Fiedler. I'm not suggesting we would need to cut any of those players next year, but as Chambers and AO contartcs grow and cap room is needed those players in their mid to late thirties could be cut.

Would any of you rather have those aging players years from now rather than Wale?
 
Wale plays against RTs who are generally not as good pass blockers as LTs while JT goes up against the elite LTs Ogden, Pace, etc. Although JT does seem to occasionaly get shut down by no-name oline men (last year's Texans game comes to mind).
 
VJ1252 said:
Wale plays against RTs who are generally not as good pass blockers as LTs while JT goes up against the elite LTs Ogden, Pace, etc. Although JT does seem to occasionaly get shut down by no-name oline men (last year's Texans game comes to mind).
Good point. They are good run blockers tho, and AO did a pretty good job at run stopping last year. Interesting point tho, havent heard tht topic come up yet(im not taking anything away from Wale for all u Ogunleye lovers). What do u guys think would happen if JT played against those RT's. If Wale turns out to b the real deal, we could let him play against the LT's and do a modest job, then let JT own those RT's.Just a thot, prolly not a good one:) .
 
Why is it in these threads no one can ever name the DE's that are opposite these guys. Guess this argument won't be answered until Ogun does some consistent work without another DE opposite him. It'd also be interesting to see him play without a very good set of DT's clogging up the middle for him in the run game.

Is Ogun good. Yes. Is he great. I don't think so. I don't see him being able to go up against LT's and being a double digit sack guy as the premier guy.
 
VanDolPhan said:
Why is it in these threads no one can ever name the DE's that are opposite these guys. Guess this argument won't be answered until Ogun does some consistent work without another DE opposite him. It'd also be interesting to see him play without a very good set of DT's clogging up the middle for him in the run game.

Is Ogun good. Yes. Is he great. I don't think so. I don't see him being able to go up against LT's and being a double digit sack guy as the premier guy.


I agree with Van :goof:

The measure of a great DE is their ability to do it "alone" so to speak. Jason Taylor has, you'll never know about O-Gun until he's truly put into that position.
 
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