Ryan Fitzpatrick To Miami | Page 38 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Ryan Fitzpatrick To Miami

Hoot said:
Yes, I also included the red hot Rams. That's not the point. I was told I'm just spitting hyperbole and there are no examples of teams struggling to climb out of the bottom ranks of the league, especially once a high QB is taken. So I shared the first 3 examples I thought of. Plenty more. Plenty of others that show quick turn arounds. Regardless, it can be hard. Seems weird to be even be having to defend that notion.
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Teams with the first over all picks from 2008 - 2015

Miami 1-15 in 2007. 11-5 in 2008.
Lions 0-16 in 2008. 2-14 in 2009
Rams 1-15 2009. 7-9 in 2010
Panthers 2-14 in 2010. 6-10 in 2011.
Colts 2-14 in 2011. 11-5 in 2012
Chiefs 2-14 in 2012. 11-5 in 2013
Texans 2-14 in 2013. 9-7 in 2014
Bucs 2-14 in 2014. 6-10 in 2015
Titans 3-13 in 2015. 9-7 in 2016

Out of the 9 teams that had the top overall pick above, three made the playoffs the next year (33%). 7 of 9 made the playoffs in the next three years (78%). The teams improved by 6.3 games on average the next year. Its not a death nail.


I didnt include the rams in 2016 or the browns from 2017 and 2018. We see how those teams are playing out now.
 
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Hoot said:
Yes, I also included the red hot Rams. That's not the point. I was told I'm just spitting hyperbole and there are no examples of teams struggling to climb out of the bottom ranks of the league, especially once a high QB is taken. So I shared the first 3 examples I thought of. Plenty more. Plenty of others that show quick turn arounds. Regardless, it can be hard. Seems weird to be even be having to defend that notion.
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Correlation does not equal causation. Your point was that if you have the worst record in the league, it's all of a sudden hard to climb back out as opposed to going something like 5-11. None of what you just said corroborates that because obviously if you're bad, then draft a bust QB with your pick and stick with him for a few years, you're going to continue to be bad. That isn't on a tablet that you came down from the mountains with. Those teams were bad, then compounded being bad by making bad decisions which kept status quo going. Whether we're 0-16 or 5-11, if we end up drafting Joey Harrington and start him we're going to be bad, but the record difference the prior year had nothing to do with it.

Trying to hover around 5 wins for the sake having some smaller hole to climb out of while drafting a lesser QB is going to make it infinitely harder to get to where we want to go. Hell, we've literally been doing that for 20 years. Haven't you learned your lesson by now? Would we even be having this discussion if we had drafted Matt Ryan instead of Jake Long coming off a 1-15 season?
 
Kamelion4291 said:
Correlation does not equal causation. Your point was that if you have the worst record in the league, it's all of a sudden hard to climb back out as opposed to going something like 5-11. None of what you just said corroborates that because obviously if you're bad, then draft a bust QB with your pick and stick with him for a few years, you're going to continue to be bad. That isn't on a tablet that you came down from the mountains with. Those teams were bad, then compounded being bad by making bad decisions which kept status quo going. Whether we're 0-16 or 5-11, if we end up drafting Joey Harrington and start him we're going to be bad, but the record difference the prior year had nothing to do with it.

Trying to hover around 5 wins for the sake having some smaller hole to climb out of while drafting a lesser QB is going to make it infinitely harder to get to where we want to go. Hell, we've literally been doing that for 20 years. Haven't you learned your lesson by now? Would we even be having this discussion if we had drafted Matt Ryan instead of Jake Long coming off a 1-15 season?
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You literally said, "Do you have any other examples of teams who have had trouble climbing back out of "worst in the league"? I mean you don't because there isn't one, but I thought I'd ask anyway." If you want to keep changing the parameters of the question, then sure, there is a lot we will agree on. I simply provided teams that struggled to climb up year after year.

If you draft a bum QB and continue to stick with him you continue to suck. UH....yup. "That isn't on a tablet you came down from the mountains with." Come on man. Of course not. If you want to keep throwing these little jabs, we can just move on.

Bad teams that continue to make bad decisions to keep status quo stay bad....yup.

Are there teams who made those bad calls and had trouble climbing out? Clearly.

"Your point was that if you have the worst record in the league, it's all of a sudden hard to climb back out as opposed to going something like 5-11." It was close to that but I was using "worst in the league" as the bottom feeders. Those teams that hover in the depths and struggle to get out. I can't envision Flores telling all of his guys to lay down in season 1. Second, if he did, man that is tough trying to switch a defeatist mindset in year 2, as a brand new coach, after you intentionally just tanked your team/locker room. That is a difficult hole to climb out of. Teams that get stuck in that mindset, in that rut, can stay there awhile. That's all I'm saying. Having a stud QB helps you get out. Baker is such a huge reason for the Browns turn around. I agree 100%. I'm all for Fins taking a QB high, trading up for one, etc. We ain't going anywhere without it. Fins are trying to load up on comp picks, trying to trade away current talent for picks, all in a move to go get their guy in the draft, along with more pieces. Great, I'm all for it. In the meantime, Fitz keeps some fight in the boys and helps Flores install his culture. Therefore, I see merit in bringing him.
 
Rowdy1972 said:
Teams with the first over all picks from 2008 - 2015

Miami 1-15 in 2007. 11-5 in 2008.
Lions 0-16 in 2008. 2-14 in 2009
Rams 1-15 2009. 7-9 in 2010
Panthers 2-14 in 2010. 6-10 in 2011.
Colts 2-14 in 2011. 11-5 in 2012
Chiefs 2-14 in 2012. 11-5 in 2013
Texans 2-14 in 2013. 9-7 in 2014
Bucs 2-14 in 2014. 6-10 in 2015
Titans 3-13 in 2015. 9-7 in 2016

Out of the 9 teams that had the top overall pick above, three made the playoffs the next year (33%). 7 of 9 made the playoffs in the next three years (78%). The teams improved by 6.3 games on average the next year. Its not a death nail.


I didnt include the rams in 2016 or the browns from 2017 and 2018. We see how those teams are playing out now.
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Good stuff man. Those are impressive quick turnarounds on a fairly high basis. I was surprised by that. After seeing those numbers though, it made me curious to see the sustained success of each of those teams.

Miami
7-9 in 2009
7-9 in 2010
6-10 in 2011
7-9 in 2012
8-8 in 2013
8-8 in 2014
6-10 in 2015
10-6 in 2016.

So for our beloved Fins, after their immediate, initial turnaround success, it took us 8 years to having a winning season again. And since our 1-15 season in 2007 we have only had 2 winning seasons.

Lions didn't do much.
Rams got back into the hunt strong. Superbowl, etc.
Panthers have done pretty well. They've been up and down but playoffs and a Super Bowl appearance are impressive.
Colts are strong since then. Luck being hurt was their only down times.
Chiefs have made a great turnaround.
Houston Texans mostly positive.

Tampa Bay has struggled.
6-10 in 2015
9-7 in 2016
5-11 in 2017
5-11 in 2018

Titans been decent.
 
Hoot said:
You literally said, "Do you have any other examples of teams who have had trouble climbing back out of "worst in the league"? I mean you don't because there isn't one, but I thought I'd ask anyway." If you want to keep changing the parameters of the question, then sure, there is a lot we will agree on. I simply provided teams that struggled to climb up year after year.

If you draft a bum QB and continue to stick with him you continue to suck. UH....yup. "That isn't on a tablet you came down from the mountains with." Come on man. Of course not. If you want to keep throwing these little jabs, we can just move on.

Bad teams that continue to make bad decisions to keep status quo stay bad....yup.

Are there teams who made those bad calls and had trouble climbing out? Clearly.

"Your point was that if you have the worst record in the league, it's all of a sudden hard to climb back out as opposed to going something like 5-11." It was close to that but I was using "worst in the league" as the bottom feeders. Those teams that hover in the depths and struggle to get out. I can't envision Flores telling all of his guys to lay down in season 1. Second, if he did, man that is tough trying to switch a defeatist mindset in year 2, as a brand new coach, after you intentionally just tanked your team/locker room. That is a difficult hole to climb out of. Teams that get stuck in that mindset, in that rut, can stay there awhile. That's all I'm saying. Having a stud QB helps you get out. Baker is such a huge reason for the Browns turn around. I agree 100%. I'm all for Fins taking a QB high, trading up for one, etc. We ain't going anywhere without it. Fins are trying to load up on comp picks, trying to trade away current talent for picks, all in a move to go get their guy in the draft, along with more pieces. Great, I'm all for it. In the meantime, Fitz keeps some fight in the boys and helps Flores install his culture. Therefore, I see merit in bringing him.
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I don't expect Flores to do anything other than try to win every game, but the tanking effort isn't on him. It's on Grier who has to basically reset the team enough to where they can try to win, but they have one arm tied behind their backs while trying to do so with young guys who are inexperienced and only cheap veterans used for competition or depth purposes.

As for the merit of bringing in Fitzpatrick, I actually don't see any. He's taking snaps from guys who could gain experience to be a backup to the inevitable QB draft pick next season with the added possibility that he could win a couple games that we shouldn't be trying to win.

If everybody on the entire team plays exactly the same in a game with Luke Falk starting as they do Fitzpatrick, but because Fitzpatrick is better actually manages to win the game, where the hell is the benefit in that? A cheery locker room for a single week? The only thing that happens is that it makes you a worse football team in 2020 and beyond.

We watched this exact scenario unfold in 2011. Did it catapult us into the following season because we had a slightly better winning culture? No. We won pointless games and got saddled with Tannehill who sucked up close to a decade, all because we were too scared to tank all the way like the Colts did. I just don't want us to make the same mistake again, and the Fitzpatrick signing signals to me that the front office still doesn't get it.
 
Fitzpatrick will probably be a really good pickup. I think we'll get 2-3 red hot games out of him, it'll be fun to watch, and then he'll start throwing a lot of interceptions and maybe we'll toss Luke Falk in there.

It won't be boring, we won't go 0-16, and we're probably going to lose a lot of games. Seems like a best case scenario here.
 
Kamelion4291 said:
I don't expect Flores to do anything other than try to win every game, but the tanking effort isn't on him. It's on Grier who has to basically reset the team enough to where they can try to win, but they have one arm tied behind their backs while trying to do so with young guys who are inexperienced and only cheap veterans used for competition or depth purposes.

As for the merit of bringing in Fitzpatrick, I actually don't see any. He's taking snaps from guys who could gain experience to be a backup to the inevitable QB draft pick next season with the added possibility that he could win a couple games that we shouldn't be trying to win.

If everybody on the entire team plays exactly the same in a game with Luke Falk starting as they do Fitzpatrick, but because Fitzpatrick is better actually manages to win the game, where the hell is the benefit in that? A cheery locker room for a single week? The only thing that happens is that it makes you a worse football team in 2020 and beyond.

We watched this exact scenario unfold in 2011. Did it catapult us into the following season because we had a slightly better winning culture? No. We won pointless games and got saddled with Tannehill who sucked up close to a decade, all because we were too scared to tank all the way like the Colts did. I just don't want us to make the same mistake again, and the Fitzpatrick signing signals to me that the front office still doesn't get it.
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Bingo. I wouldnt want to tank either, but the QB class or basically Tua is good enough that I want a full scale Napalm of a season. Screw the "culture". 75% of the players on this team wont be here in 3 years.
 
He may have been assured the starting spot before signing?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fitzpatrick chose Dolphins to be starting QB

Ryan Fitzpatrick is planning to be the Miami Dolphins 2019 starting quarterback, and that opportunity to start was enough for him to pick a rebuilding team over other situations with comparable money.

"The way that I view this is there's 32 of these starting gigs in the NFL, and this is one of them. The opportunity to be one of those 32 guys is an amazing privilege and honor," Fitzpatrick said. "When they approached me about signing on, I was so excited about the chance to get on the field and play."

Fitzpatrick, 36, knows he's on the back end of his career, and that's what makes this opportunity even sweeter. The idea of the Dolphins rebuilding didn't seem to bother him, and he said he had several conversations with the Dolphins about the fluidity of their quarterback situation.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26307894/fitzpatrick-chose-dolphins-starting-qb
 
meatpardle said:
You're still not saying who you want to see instead.

Also they're doing or planning to do everything you want - tearing it down, building through the draft, not splurging in FA and taking a QB next year.
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I am saying who I want instead. If the plan is to draft a qb next year, then I would want to play one of the young guys they already have on their roster. I do not need a guy playing qb who is just competent enough to take Miami out of prime position to draft the best qb in next year's draft but inept enough to not make the team a contender.
 
Kinda related, but I've been mulling over this since he sign. Apologies if anyone else has already brought this up but I wonder if the NFL have told the dolphins to "at least show as if you are trying" by signing a vet with starting experience rather than just rolling with the two we had under contract plus a late round draft pick. I'm sure the NFL aren't too keen having a situation where it is clear that one team is deliberately losing games, even before the season starts.
 
Kamelion4291 said:
I don't expect Flores to do anything other than try to win every game, but the tanking effort isn't on him. It's on Grier who has to basically reset the team enough to where they can try to win, but they have one arm tied behind their backs while trying to do so with young guys who are inexperienced and only cheap veterans used for competition or depth purposes.

As for the merit of bringing in Fitzpatrick, I actually don't see any. He's taking snaps from guys who could gain experience to be a backup to the inevitable QB draft pick next season with the added possibility that he could win a couple games that we shouldn't be trying to win.

If everybody on the entire team plays exactly the same in a game with Luke Falk starting as they do Fitzpatrick, but because Fitzpatrick is better actually manages to win the game, where the hell is the benefit in that? A cheery locker room for a single week? The only thing that happens is that it makes you a worse football team in 2020 and beyond.

We watched this exact scenario unfold in 2011. Did it catapult us into the following season because we had a slightly better winning culture? No. We won pointless games and got saddled with Tannehill who sucked up close to a decade, all because we were too scared to tank all the way like the Colts did. I just don't want us to make the same mistake again, and the Fitzpatrick signing signals to me that the front office still doesn't get it.
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Thank you. Someone who gets it.
 
Geordie said:
Kinda related, but I've been mulling over this since he sign. Apologies if anyone else has already brought this up but I wonder if the NFL have told the dolphins to "at least show as if you are trying" by signing a vet with starting experience rather than just rolling with the two we had under contract plus a late round draft pick. I'm sure the NFL aren't too keen having a situation where it is clear that one team is deliberately losing games, even before the season starts.
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Very possible or the Dolphins are at least trying to make it look good before they get called in to the office with the principal ......
 
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Geordie said:
Kinda related, but I've been mulling over this since he sign. Apologies if anyone else has already brought this up but I wonder if the NFL have told the dolphins to "at least show as if you are trying" by signing a vet with starting experience rather than just rolling with the two we had under contract plus a late round draft pick. I'm sure the NFL aren't too keen having a situation where it is clear that one team is deliberately losing games, even before the season starts.
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You might be on to something, it's definitely possible.
 
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