About Ginn in the 1st round...

[Lab3003]

no.....target brady quinn

I agree. See my website.

 

[alienalias]

Why do you compare Ginn to Sinorice Moss? Why not compare him to some of the other smaller fast receivers like Santana Moss or Steve Smith? Or he might excel in the return game ala D. Hall who knows? There are only a few guys that I like at our position and Ginn is one of them because he's a receiver who stretches the field and has an impact in the return game.

Also, Santana Moss is the 'Canes all time leading WIDE RECEIVER in Miami's history. He is a true WR, not a glamourized and speedy returner. Steve Smith played on a 4-7, terrible Utah football team with even worse QB's... yet STILL matched Ginn in college stats. Ginn benefited from having a Heismann trophy winner throw to him and #1 or #2 team in the nation. Even so, Moss took 5 years to have a season worthy of being a 1st rd pick. If you want to rebuild, draft Ginn... he might be worth it in 4 or 5 years. Until then, he is a returner. But I want a guy who will make the most signicant, immediate impact at a need position... not a luxury position. The Bears took Hester as a luxury pick, and we simply have too many other needs at more important positions.

 

[alienalias]

no.....target brady quinn

I'm also with ya on that thought...

 

[finfan54]

Wide Receiver | Junior | Ohio St.
Ted Ginn Jr.
Height: 6-0 | Weight: 180 | 40-Time: 4.30

Career Statistics
Year GP Rec Yds YPC TD
2004 12 25 359 14.4 2
2005 12 51 803 15.7 4
2006 13 59 781 13.2 9
Totals 37 135 1,943 14.4 15

Anthony Gonzalez
Height: 6-0 | Weight: 195 | 40-Time: 4.40

Career Statistics
Year GP Rec Yds YPC TD
2003 DNP - - - -
2004 8 8 179 22.4 2
2005 12 28 373 13.3 3
2006 13 51 734 14.4 8
Totals 33 87 1,286 14.8 13

I do not see what the big deal is about Ginn. I mean really.

 

[Geforce]

The greatest WR of all time, Jerry Rice, ran a 4.6 40 yard dash. Our 1st round flop and pick in 1991, WR Randall "Thrill" Hill, ran a 4.2 40. Larry Fitzgerald ran a 4.63. Chad Johnson ran a 4.57. Anquan Boldin ran a 4.72. Chad Jackson was the fastest player in last years draft, yet had guys like Jabaar Gaffney, Reche Caldwell, and an aging Troy Brown start above him.
Ted Ginn is just another Sinorice Moss or Troy Williamson. Insane speed, shifty guy, but not an NFL WR. Everyone is on this guys jock for one reason, and that's because of his speed. If you watch his highlights at http://youtube.com/watch?v=TApPxbmGzP4 , clearly most of them are kick or punt return highlights.
Even worse, investing in WR in the 1st round has notoriously and traditionally been one of the worst ways to spend one's first round pick. http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=776&Category=11

Marvin Harrison is the rare WR who was the one of the fastest players in his draft to become a superstar. Yet, even though he doesn't have anywhere close to the same speed today, he is still elite. Ginn is considered a sloppy route runner, with average hands, but "tremendous upside". Harrison is the master of precision and mastering his craft, and it's his hands and route running that made him and have kept him elite... again, not pure speed.

There are some WR's who have run at the top of their class for 40 times with times in the 4.3's... such as Chambers, Evans, and Santana Moss. But who would you take, those speed guys whom are very good, or the likes of "slower" dudes like Jerry Rice, Larry Fitzgerald, Roy Williams, Anquin Boldin, Laveraneus Coles, Chad Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Torry Holt, etc? It's all about football smarts, football ability, route running, hands, etc... not simple, blazing speed. Think Steve Largent, one of the best WR's of all time. Hands, heart, route-running. Ginn is simply too big a risk. Unless Calvin Johnson falls, I say pass on WR. But if forced to choose between Jarrett or Ginn, I go with Jarrett.
Consider the following history of 40 times, which I could only find reliable info from 1999 to date. It is a list of all 1st rd picks from the last year, along with some stars from latter rounds. Very few pure speedsters make NFL stars. I truly consider Ginn to be most similar to Peter Warrick or Troy Williamson. Read the bios on Warrick and Williamson, again, eerily similar to Ginns profile. Anyway:

1996-Keyshawn Johnson, Terry Glenn, Eddie Kennison, Marvin Harrison, Eric Moulds, Terrell Owens* (3rd rd).
1997-Ike Hilliard, Yatil Green, Reidel Anthony, Rae Carruth
1998-Kevin Dyson, Randy Moss, Marcus Nash
1999-Torry Holt 4.44, David Boston 4.47, Troy Edwards 4.57. *Fastest times: 4.24 Rondel Menendez, and 4.33 Karsten Bailey.
2000-Peter Warrick 4.3, Plaxico Burress 4.6, Travis Taylor 4.4, Sylvester Morris 4.61, R Jay Soward 4.37, Laveranues Coles 4.47* (3rd rd), Darrell Jackson 4.58* (3rd rd). *Fastest times: 4.35 Chris Cole, 4.37 R Jay Soward.
2001-David Terrell 4.43, Koren Robinson 4.61, Rod Gardner 4.48, Santana Moss 4.31, Freddie Mitchell 4.46, Reggie Wayne 4.45, Chad Johnson 4.57* (2nd rd), Steve Smith 4.41* (3rd rd). *Fastest times: 4.31 Santana Moss, 4.33 Chris Chambers.
2002-Donte Stallworth 4.48, Ashley Lelie 4.35, Javon Walker 4.38. *Fastest times: 4.31 Aaron Lockett, 4.32 Tim Carter.
2003-Charles Rogers 4.4, Andre Johnson 4.4, Bryant Johnson 4.57, Anquan Boldin 4.72* (2nd rd). *Fastest times: 4.34 Tyrone Calico, 4.38 Bethel Johnson.
2004-Larry Fitzgerald 4.63, Roy Williams 4.48, Reggie Williams 4.62, Michael Clayton 4.6, Michael Jenkins 4.6, Rashaun Woods 4.47. *Fastest times: 4.33 Carlos Francis, 4.36 Drew Carter.
2005-Braylon Edwards 4.45, Troy Williamson 4.32, Mike Williams 4.56, Matt Jones 4.42, Mark Clayton 4.4, Roddy White 4.47. *Fastest players: 4.28 Jerome Mathis, 4.32 Troy Williamson.
2006-Santonio Holmes 4.35, Marques Colston 4.5* (7th rd). *Fastest times: 4.32 Chad Jackson, 4.34 Willie Reid.
[FONT=&quot](Mostly found on NFLdraftscout.com)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please, just say NO to Ginn! :dolphins:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thoughts? [/FONT]

Very good post but 40 times are not the only thing teams look at when choosing a players, atleast the ones who do their homework.
You cannot really compare Ginn, Jr to Peter Warrick or Troy Williamson. First of all, the time you quoted on Warrick is not accurate. He ran a 4.55 at the combine which slower than listed on NFL Draft Scout and he was often injured. Troy Williamson was in a run first offense in college and never learned how to run routes properly. What he mostly ran was go or clear out routes. As a receiver he is raw and will take him some time to learn that speed alone will not make you successful in the NFL. It is what Steve Smith, Santana Moss, Javon Walker and some of the others you mention had to learn. Once they did, they became All-Pros.
To say that a player will suck because he runs a great 40 is...well...ignorant.

 

[jim1]

Your entire post is based on NFL WR's 40 times. Your argument for not taking Ginn is because of his 40 time. So before you go shaking your head, know what you're talking about.

The guy makes a very interesting argument and you have to dump on it. Great post.

 

[alienalias]

Very good post but 40 times are not the only thing teams look at when choosing a players, atleast the ones who do their homework.
You cannot really compare Ginn, Jr to Peter Warrick or Troy Williamson. First of all, the time you quoted on Warrick is not accurate. He ran a 4.55 at the combine which slower than listed on NFL Draft Scout and he was often injured. Troy Williamson was in a run first offense in college and never learned how to run routes properly. What he mostly ran was go or clear out routes. As a receiver he is raw and will take him some time to learn that speed alone will not make you successful in the NFL. It is what Steve Smith, Santana Moss, Javon Walker and some of the others you mention had to learn. Once they did, they became All-Pros.
To say that a player will suck because he runs a great 40 is...well...ignorant.

You misread, misunderstood, misinterpreted my entire point, which is... well... ignorant. :wink: First off, Warrick was the #3 pick overall, greatly in due part for his renowned, freaky SPEED. I found a number of stats showing his 40 time in the 4.4's. There are not only combine #'s, but also pro day #'s, personal workouts and the like. I generally used the site I referenced if their combine time was specified, but for guys as Warrick where there were no combine #'s specified on the site, I had to use secondary research from finding personal workouts or pro day workouts etc. Go examine Williamson's stats, profile, bio, etc... he virtually IS Ginn Jr in that regard. Williamson would've been a 2nd rounder at best, but his 4.3 SPEED vaulted him into the 1st round. If Ginn runs a 4.45, he's a high 2nd rounder. But he's a 4.3 guy just like Williamson and Warrick, so now he's a top 10 pick. Speed should not have as much weight toward a guys football skill, as it currently does. WR position involves much more than running fast. His scouting profile says he has average hands, with worldclass speed... sounds like olympic sprinter and former Chicago Bear Willie Gault. I want an all-around WR. Not a hyped returner. Show me some highlights of beautiful, over-the-shoulder catches, or diving grabs, or fingertip or shoelace grabs... not a short hitch turned into a big gain. Those big gains from short passes rarely work in the NFL. Again, EVERY one is fast in the NFL.

 

[byroan]

The guy makes a very interesting argument and you have to dump on it. Great post.

Wasn't interesting to me.

 

[byroan]

speed is nice.....for a punt returner, but to be a WR in the NFL you have to be aggresive and able to jump up and go after the ball, like Steve Smith with the panthers, like Chad Johnson with the Bengals, both are very aggresive, and Ted Ginn is not that guy!

I take it you've never watched Ginn play in a game then. You act like he's never caught a pass.

 

[utahphinsfan]

nice post but i still want him .... speed is speed and hes only been a reciever for only two years so u cant really say much about him other then hes still developing his touch.

Given Martz's love of speed & Millen's track record (pun intended), I think Ginn is a lock to go @ #2. :evil:

 

[HelloMotto]

speed is nice.....for a punt returner, but to be a WR in the NFL you have to be aggresive and able to jump up and go after the ball, like Steve Smith with the panthers, like Chad Johnson with the Bengals, both are very aggresive, and Ted Ginn is not that guy!

remember mark duper......i want speed again......

 

[HelloMotto]

Also, Santana Moss is the 'Canes all time leading WIDE RECEIVER in Miami's history. He is a true WR, not a glamourized and speedy returner. Steve Smith played on a 4-7, terrible Utah football team with even worse QB's... yet STILL matched Ginn in college stats. Ginn benefited from having a Heismann trophy winner throw to him and #1 or #2 team in the nation. Even so, Moss took 5 years to have a season worthy of being a 1st rd pick. If you want to rebuild, draft Ginn... he might be worth it in 4 or 5 years. Until then, he is a returner. But I want a guy who will make the most signicant, immediate impact at a need position... not a luxury position. The Bears took Hester as a luxury pick, and we simply have too many other needs at more important positions.

yeah lets go find someone that runs a 6.5 forty so we can guarantee he will be a great receiver....

 

[Geforce]

You misread, misunderstood, misinterpreted my entire point, which is... well... ignorant. :wink: First off, Warrick was the #3 pick overall, greatly in due part for his renowned, freaky SPEED. I found a number of stats showing his 40 time in the 4.3's. There are not only combine #'s, but also pro day #'s, personal workouts and the like. I generally used the site I referenced if their combine time was specified, but for guys as Warrick where there were no combine #'s specified on the site, I had to use secondary research from finding personal workouts or pro day workouts etc. Go examine Williamson's stats, profile, bio, etc... he virtually IS Ginn Jr in that regard. Williamson would've been a 2nd rounder at best, but his 4.3 SPEED vaulted him into the 1st round. If Ginn runs a 4.45, he's a high 2nd rounder. But he's a 4.3 guy just like Williamson and Warrick, so now he's a top 10 pick. Speed should not have as much weight toward a guys football skill, as it currently does. WR position involves much more than running fast. His scouting profile says he has average hands, with worldclass speed... sounds like olympic sprinter and former Chicago Bear Willie Gault. I want an all-around WR. Not a hyped returner. Show me some highlights of beautiful, over-the-shoulder catches, or diving grabs, or fingertip or shoelace grabs... not a short hitch turned into a big gain. Those big gains from short passes rarely work in the NFL. Again, EVERY one is fast in the NFL.

The comparison you used is what I was going on. As I said, 40 times is not the only thing teams rely on, atleast the ones that do their homework, when evaluating a player.
I remember Warrick's time during his pro day because it was big news around here. He ran a 4.55 and 4.56 that day and a lot of people were shocked that Cincinnati took him so high. He may have played faster in college but in the pros he couldn't get it done. Injuries also played a factor in his less than stellar career.
Troy Williamson did receive a 1st round grade because of his speed and Minnesota was desperate to replace Moss so they ignored his limited experience as a receiver and drafted him in the top 10.
Ted Ginn, Jr is also limited experience wise as a WR but that is where most of the comparisons with Williamson ends. Ginn has/had a 1st round grade before the season was much improved this year in his overall play at WR than last.
As I have said before, I'm not advocating the drafting of Ginn but wouldn't be opposed to it. I'm just questioning yours and anyone else's logic suggesting that he'll be no more than a kick returner based on his speed alone. Besides, the majority of rookie WRs struggle the 1st year or two.

 

[Pocoloco]

I think the reason why some of us are so high on Ginn is that he has so much potential, not because he is the best technique receiver right now. There is no question he is raw, but the idea is that in 3-4 years he could be dominant. But there is no question that, once he gets the ball, he knows exactly what to do with it, which is that homerun quality you really look for in a #1 receiver.

Personally, I think Ginn could really make this offense click better just by being out there on the field. It would probably force Chambers back to the slot, where he has been more productive. He would command respect from the safeties, who couldn't inch up in anticipation of Ronnie Brown. Just sending the kid on fly routes constantly would open things up underneath.

 

[jim1]

Wasn't interesting to me.

Wow, what a shocker.