After further review...

[dolpns13]

I respectfully disagree with your entire post except for the end. Talent IS our problem. Period. Picking Jackson at 18 wasn’t the problem? I’ll say it again… Grier picked a guy with a 2nd or 3rd round grade who was looked at as a project coming out of college. So….The problem is Grier using the 18th overall pick on a project. That’s just stupid. I said it when we drafted him. That’s just the Jackson pick….

You said IF all those moves were correct? Well…They weren’t correct as has become obvious. Jackson is consistently being beaten by the man across from him. Kindley has eaten himself out of a job. He’s also consistently beaten by the man across from him. Eichenberg? Rookie…,But as of right now, he doesn’t look good. To put a bow on it…. The entire offensive line is a disgrace. Not one of them are playing anywhere near an NFL level consistently. Grier has hit on a few guys…. but not many. Definitely not enough to keep his job in my opinion.

Remember Grier’s job is to acquire talent. Let’s go to our Free Agent pick ups. Will Fuller? Hurt again. McKinney? Cut. Kyle Van Noy? Cut and on and on.

So…Your argument that Grier is any better at identifying talent than some of the guys on this board is, in my opinion, wrong. He’s just getting paid for it. I guarantee there are guys on this board that post regularly that would run circles around Grier. Grier has been the problem here for 20 years. The only thing he has proven to be good at is getting promoted and keeping his job.

As for coaching…I’m starting to come around to the fact that Flores isn’t what I hoped he would be. You mention being put into a position to succeed…Well…. At some point you have to beat the man across from you. None of the guys you mention are. But…I’ll agree with you….Our coaching isn’t helping these guys. We should go no huddle….Move the pocket…Run more screens etc.

I’ve become very disillusioned with Flores…..And that’s the part that sucks. I thought we had a good one.

Anyway….That’s my 2 cents.

Also add, picking Tua over Herbert as not being a problem. It’s the biggest problem this team has and it’s glaring. Not sure how anyone can thing Tua is better than Herbert.

 

[tommyp]

Im rambling the **** out of this post so if you dont have a couple of minutes to read it once, and then another couple of times just to get what it actually means, just move on.

Let me start off by saying there's not one single move this FO made in the last 2 years that was a **** move(questionable at worst) when looked at individually.. These moves when looked at individually were all legit, its when you look at the overall strategy that things start to look... Inadequate for a lack of a better word. I'll just keep this one on the offense because quite frankly, this D has warts but its good enough to win games in the NFL provided you field a top 10 offense, which is what you should always be striving for.

Picking Jackson at #18 is not a problem, picking Eich at #42 is not a problem, picking hunt at #39 is not a problem, picking Kindley at #111 is definitely not a problem. Picking Tua over Herbert at #5 was definitely not a problem. I mean sure hindsight captains will tell you all along Herbert was definitely the guy, but thats a very small amount of people and even then half of them hated Tua more than they liked Herbert.

So whats the problem? If all these moves were correct, how the **** does this offense suck so bad?

We often come across guys who's whole argument centers around "These guys are pros and you're sitting on your couch, I'll trust the pros to do their jobs". This is basically correct, you're not getting resistance from me on that one. Grier is absolutely better at evaluation footaball players than we are, Flores is obviously a better football coach than anyone here(hopefully) and basically everyone on the Fins coaching staff most probably know WTF they're doing.

That being said, having a bunch of competent people doesnt automatically bring success. You absolutely need someone to coordinate all these guys, formulate an overall strategy that makes sense and make sure everyone knows their role and execute it at a high level. This is where the Fins literally suck on offense. There is absolutely nothing that makes sense on the way this offense is built and run. They are actually doing worst than a coinflip.

There's nothing to evaluate on offense right now because the OL is incapable of giving even below average time for plays to develop.

Quick view of the OL: 2nd year, 2nd year, 3rd year(IR), 2nd year, Davis(who got the QB smashed in 1.9 seconds, and who's backup is, you guessed it, a rookie)
Quick view of the OL coach: 1st year(was playing in the NFL just 5 years ago)
Quick view of the QB: 2nd year(IR)

No one, not one player was put in position to succeed. Every single one of these players were put in a group that was just as clueless as they are. I'd bet a huge amount that any single one of these players would've performed a decent amount better if they were put next to a vet, or at the very least coached by someone who knows what the **** they're doing. I bet Jackson would've been alot better if he came into a situation where there were 3-4 vets on the OL, and I bet that statement is true for anyone of the green OL.

I also bet Tua would've looked alot better if he didnt play behind a group of OL that are all lost and the only one to look up to is someone who is also lost. Picks and money is great, but if all your picks go into the same unit or function, its a problem. All these coaches and management guys are probably good at what they do, but someone needs to oversee the overall strategy because right now, everyone seems to do as they please and the final product is alot of **** that dont make sense.

/rant

of all sports, coaching in football is by far the most important.. Hell i think i could coach baseball, basketball and hockey. even soccer.. but having good coordinators to me is even more important than the head coach.. the head coach has to be a good communicator and motivator but the coordinators actually run the show on game day in most cases (except andy reid, belicheck and a few others). other coordinators make adjustments during the game yet we never seem to adjust to anything.. flores better fix it or he will just be another name to a long list of dolphin coaches who have failed

 

[Ray R]

LMAO, I’ve been saying for many years the top draft gurus on finheaven would absolutely do a better job drafting then Grier or anyone for that matter the past 20 years.

What's pitiful is that you probably believe that - LOL

 

[Eesti]

Picking Austin Jackson at 18 was a "reach for need" pick which is hardly ever a good idea. He looked like he was improving over the course of the 2020 and most thought he would continue to get better. No one foresaw the huge regression he has shown so I can't say passing on a top LT in favor of Waddle in 2021 was necessarily a bad choice at the time. Hindsight shows it was the wrong move. The best pick for Miami would have been Rashawn Slater.

Picking Iggy at 30 was Grier getting cute and falling in love with a player he didn't want to miss out on in round 2. The guy was VERY inexperienced and a huge reach. I don't need hindsight to say the better choice would have been Jonathan Taylor or Antoine Winfield. If they really wanted a corner, Trevon Diggs was the guy and offers more value than a RB or Safety.

Meanwhile Carolina grabs a player like Jeremy Chinn at 64 and we get Brandon Jones 6 picks later. That's a huge drop-off in talent and we ended up with Robert Hunt at 39 and Raekwon Davis at 56. Hopefully Davis gets back to better play after shaking off some rust and Hunt picks it up at guard.

We lost two leaders from both sides of the ball this year. Bobby McCain is not the player Holland is but he got everyone on the same page on defense. Ereck Flowers was a similar type leader for the OL. I'm sure this isn't the reason for everything going bad but I'm sure it had an affect.

 

[PhinFan1968]

A million dollars says if Herbert was in Miami he would be viewed as an even bigger failure then Tua is by the media

If I had a million dollars, I’d take your money…knowing what we know now. Herbert is the real deal…he’s only played 21 games and has solidified himself. When you see some all-22 of our games, you’ll see WRs either wide open, or about to be, deep. I say Herbert would have looked just about as good here as he did in LA last year, because he had a TRASH OL and still busted records. He would hit some of those open guys where we don’t.

Of course NOBODY expected him to be this damn good…else he’d be a Bengal. We had a QB once like that…

 

[RedWhiteNBlue]

Offensive coaching staff is the biggest problem, but Grier is also a problem. We should have spent money in free agency on the offensive line.

I've always been a fan of paying for Oline and Dline and drafting skill positions.

 

[Marino420TD]

I agree that they tried but failed. Also They did not put free agency money into the line. They spent on one free agency G in the last two years. That’s it

Didn't we also bring in DJ Fluker, who got injured and was released? He is/was certainly not great, but might have been a nice option for OT, given the play that we have seen so far.

 

[Manning]

Didn't we also bring in DJ Fluker, who got injured and was released? He is/was certainly not great, but might have been a nice option for OT, given the play that we have seen so far.

I don’t consider flukers contract as putting money on the Oline. I’m talking starting caliber money

 

[John813]

I'll just tackle the Herbert versus Tua debate that has gained steam here, as well as with the media.

I bet if you surveyed GM'S going into that draft, most would have taken Tua. Besides the injury, albeit a legitimate concern, there really wasn't another negative associated with Tua. Accurate, check. Leadership, check. Coming up big in crucial moments, check.

Herbert had the edge in arm strength, size and physicality. Questions loomed on accuracy and leadership.

Certainly Herbert went into a better situation and has been the better player one year and four games into his career.

I liked Herbert, but preferred Tua. Wanted Jefferson over Jackson, though.

I'll let others tackle the coaching issue and lack of veteran talent on the offensive side. All good points by the OP.

https://www.nfl.com/news/2020-nfl-draft-league-execs-scouts-coaches-assess-qb-class-0ap3000001109653

As part of my annual effort to create composite rankings for the league, I went back and forth so many times between Alabama's Tua Tagovailoa and Oregon's Justin Herbert that I decided to conduct a final poll this week of general managers and other high-level executives with a dozen teams. Seven predicted the No. 2 QB will be Herbert. Five gave the nod to Tagovailoa, whose durability and long-term prognosis remain one of the great puzzle pieces in this draft, even as he makes what by all accounts is a strong recovery from a significant hip injury.

Of course, small sample size of 12, but maybe the NFL was split on that debate.

I too liked Herbert but thought the team would do well with either.

 

[Marino420TD]

I don’t consider flukers contract as putting money on the Oline. I’m talking starting caliber money

Yeah, the Fluker signing was more of getting a vet back-up for swing tackle (which would be nice to have at this point) and not bringing in a in-their-prime vet as a starter.

 

[phintim]

Jackson was the highest rated left tackle on the board according to most publications and left tackles just like QBs get picked higher than they should. I believe Slim had him ranked in the first round and Slims pretty good at ranking.
That being said the fact that Jackson came in green as a rookie and played better then than now is much more important.
Takes these same dudes put them under the tutalege of the Pats Oline coach we would have a different looking line. Maybe not all pro but they would be medocre at least.
We picked the right positions we just have the wrong o coaches and yes a couple of vets would help the rookies.

 

[MSU_SpartFin]

How is he wrong? Tua, not Herbert, was the consensus #2 QB behind Burrow.

 

[SF Dolphin Fan]

https://www.nfl.com/news/2020-nfl-draft-league-execs-scouts-coaches-assess-qb-class-0ap3000001109653

As part of my annual effort to create composite rankings for the league, I went back and forth so many times between Alabama's Tua Tagovailoa and Oregon's Justin Herbert that I decided to conduct a final poll this week of general managers and other high-level executives with a dozen teams. Seven predicted the No. 2 QB will be Herbert. Five gave the nod to Tagovailoa, whose durability and long-term prognosis remain one of the great puzzle pieces in this draft, even as he makes what by all accounts is a strong recovery from a significant hip injury.

Of course, small sample size of 12, but maybe the NFL was split on that debate.

I too liked Herbert but thought the team would do well with either.

Great find! Thanks.

I think without the hip injury, those numbers are more in Tua's favor. Obviously, everything has come together for Herbert.

To me, Tua has to be better than mid-tier, or I consider that a miss. Don't think you win big with the Andy Dalton, Derek Carr, Kirk Cousin type quarterbacks.

 

[Ray R]

If I had a million dollars, I’d take your money…knowing what we know now. Herbert is the real deal…he’s only played 21 games and has solidified himself. When you see some all-22 of our games, you’ll see WRs either wide open, or about to be, deep. I say Herbert would have looked just about as good here as he did in LA last year, because he had a TRASH OL and still busted records. He would hit some of those open guys where we don’t.

Of course NOBODY expected him to be this damn good…else he’d be a Bengal. We had a QB once like that…

Yeah, and now he plays for the Titans - LOL

 

[JTech194]

Im rambling the **** out of this post so if you dont have a couple of minutes to read it once, and then another couple of times just to get what it actually means, just move on.

Let me start off by saying there's not one single move this FO made in the last 2 years that was a **** move(questionable at worst) when looked at individually.. These moves when looked at individually were all legit, its when you look at the overall strategy that things start to look... Inadequate for a lack of a better word. I'll just keep this one on the offense because quite frankly, this D has warts but its good enough to win games in the NFL provided you field a top 10 offense, which is what you should always be striving for.

Picking Jackson at #18 is not a problem, picking Eich at #42 is not a problem, picking hunt at #39 is not a problem, picking Kindley at #111 is definitely not a problem. Picking Tua over Herbert at #5 was definitely not a problem. I mean sure hindsight captains will tell you all along Herbert was definitely the guy, but thats a very small amount of people and even then half of them hated Tua more than they liked Herbert.

So whats the problem? If all these moves were correct, how the **** does this offense suck so bad?

We often come across guys who's whole argument centers around "These guys are pros and you're sitting on your couch, I'll trust the pros to do their jobs". This is basically correct, you're not getting resistance from me on that one. Grier is absolutely better at evaluation footaball players than we are, Flores is obviously a better football coach than anyone here(hopefully) and basically everyone on the Fins coaching staff most probably know WTF they're doing.

That being said, having a bunch of competent people doesnt automatically bring success. You absolutely need someone to coordinate all these guys, formulate an overall strategy that makes sense and make sure everyone knows their role and execute it at a high level. This is where the Fins literally suck on offense. There is absolutely nothing that makes sense on the way this offense is built and run. They are actually doing worst than a coinflip.

There's nothing to evaluate on offense right now because the OL is incapable of giving even below average time for plays to develop.

Quick view of the OL: 2nd year, 2nd year, 3rd year(IR), 2nd year, Davis(who got the QB smashed in 1.9 seconds, and who's backup is, you guessed it, a rookie)
Quick view of the OL coach: 1st year(was playing in the NFL just 5 years ago)
Quick view of the QB: 2nd year(IR)

No one, not one player was put in position to succeed. Every single one of these players were put in a group that was just as clueless as they are. I'd bet a huge amount that any single one of these players would've performed a decent amount better if they were put next to a vet, or at the very least coached by someone who knows what the **** they're doing. I bet Jackson would've been alot better if he came into a situation where there were 3-4 vets on the OL, and I bet that statement is true for anyone of the green OL.

I also bet Tua would've looked alot better if he didnt play behind a group of OL that are all lost and the only one to look up to is someone who is also lost. Picks and money is great, but if all your picks go into the same unit or function, its a problem. All these coaches and management guys are probably good at what they do, but someone needs to oversee the overall strategy because right now, everyone seems to do as they please and the final product is alot of **** that dont make sense.

/rant

Good take.

Let me play devils advocate as relates to the vet players.

Is there any substitute or better way to learn than to be on the field playing? When you have young guys that you want to develop, starting veteran guys in front of them thinking that they can learn from the vet guys is risky. There's no guarantee that the vet guys will be willing to work or train the young guys to take their jobs, so it becomes a "Figure it out on your own rook" type of situation. As a coaching staff.... the best way to accelerate that development is to throw them out there and have them sink or swim. If they sink.... at the very least you know that you need to readdress the position. If they swim.... then GREAT. The problem is that most fans don't have the patience to endure the learning process waiting for the young guys to become good.