Akeem Spence Is No Ndamukong Suh. And Why That Might Be A Good Thing.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by DKphin, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. DKphin

    DKphin A True Fan Donator

    Joined:
    Aug 2008
    Messages:
    11,596
    Likes Received:
    1,955
    Trophy Points:
    113
    [​IMG]

    "All the defensive tackles are rotating, so me and Jordan [Phillips] go out there first and then [Davon] Godchaux comes in with the second group," Spence said. "Or Godchaux goes out there first. It’s just what we’re doing, we’re always rotating. We never know who’s going to be on the field.”
    That's why the Dolphins' post-draft trade for Spence was important, even if it went largely under the radar. Without him, the Dolphins would not have had enough quality bodies to implement their hockey line-change approach.
    The Dolphins needed a replacement for Ndamukong Suh, who was on the field for a staggering 84 percent of his team's defensive plays last year — a workload that Spence called "ridiculous."


    Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nfl/miami-dolphins/article213025299.html#storylink=cpy
     
    Ray R and Fins1971 like this.
  2. Fins1971

    Fins1971 C'mon Dolphins Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Nov 2009
    Messages:
    7,671
    Likes Received:
    639
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Suh's pay was "ridiculous" and a good reason why he had to be on the field that much. No depth because you spent so much on one player.
     
    Ben Had, Anvil35, Ray R and 1 other person like this.
  3. NY8123

    NY8123 Sophisticated Redneck Administrator Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 2008
    Messages:
    22,588
    Likes Received:
    3,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Suh is an enigma to me. In Detroit he was rated as one of, if not the top DE and the defense was supposed to be great every year and never really was. In Miami he was rated one of the top 3 DTs in the league and his play also reflected that and while Miami had deficiencies it was expected that the defense should be good with Suh and co. on the front line.

    Never has a Suh lead defense been great. There are a few good years sprinkled in there but never great. It makes you question if Suh is good for a defense simply because he occupies resources that make it hard to address other fundamental needs.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  4. crumpdaddy

    crumpdaddy FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Mar 2004
    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    675
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don't care about first string DT and second string DT, It might hurt a feeling or two if a player is not listed as starter, but if you are going to rotate lines such as in Hockey then I say find consistency between the players. For instance we'll just run a depth chart, #1 Phillips, #2 DG, #3 Spenc, #4 VT, I don't care if VT is listed as starter if him and Phillips have better cohesion. Sure DG might the second best, but if he's better along side Spence then so be it. I do think that you need to set a default A team though that need to suck it up and have an extra rotation or two. It used to make me so mad back in the days when the game was tight and we would have our starting DL rotated out just to see the other team walk the field and tie or take the lead. I understand rest and rotation, but Suh always nutted up and played as much as allowed. sometimes that extra 10% of plays you might need to take over can be the difference between them busting through a gap in the middle or the ball being stopped and turned over
     
  5. claytonduper

    claytonduper Starter

    Joined:
    May 2004
    Messages:
    1,164
    Likes Received:
    253
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I like the "hockey like rotation" but how will that work when the other team is playing up-tempo or a 2 minute fast offense?
     
  6. crumpdaddy

    crumpdaddy FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Mar 2004
    Messages:
    1,522
    Likes Received:
    675
    Trophy Points:
    113
    that's when they need to suck it and put in their 60% of the plays instead of 50% for the game. our biggest thing is we just need to sustain some dang drives on offense next year, 3 and out isn't gonna cut it for the D
     
    coalesce and dolpns13 like this.
  7. foozool13

    foozool13 #12 #13 #23 #29 #54 #99 Donator

    Joined:
    Jul 2005
    Messages:
    5,302
    Likes Received:
    371
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Suh is a great player and played great while he was here for us, despite how people try to make it look now that we cut him.

    With that said, I much prefer having a rotation the way we do now at DT.
     
    artdnj, TannDaMan17 and royalshank like this.
  8. sunworshipper

    sunworshipper FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 2008
    Messages:
    345
    Likes Received:
    366
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I suspect each line will play for several consecutive plays. If the offense is not huddling, then they stay in for the entire series or until there's a time-out. It would be wild if they intend to swap out after each play.
     
  9. Fintastic17

    Fintastic17 A True Fan

    Joined:
    Aug 2012
    Messages:
    1,991
    Likes Received:
    550
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Completely agree. He cripples the defense simply because of the salary he commands.

    On a side note, I'm keeping a close eye on the Rams defense this year because he took somewhat of a discount and joined an already dominant group. I think they will absolutely eat teams alive this year.
     
    FinaticalOne likes this.
  10. NY8123

    NY8123 Sophisticated Redneck Administrator Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 2008
    Messages:
    22,588
    Likes Received:
    3,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    He didn't take a discount he was subsidized by the money he was guaranteed by Miami lol.

    I agree if the Ram's D isn't "elite" this year (and I don't use that term often the last elite D was Baltimore in 2000) it will be very telling.
     
  11. Danny

    Danny Finheaven VIP Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2003
    Messages:
    20,660
    Likes Received:
    5,194
    Trophy Points:
    113
    We need to move on from the players that are gone. It's not always about having one great player but rather, having a real team that plays well together. Time will tell what happens but our defense was never very good with Suh here. No I don't blame him as a player for it but you don't spend that type of money on a freaking DT.
     
    Blancgary911 likes this.
  12. BobDole

    BobDole Suck it Trebek Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 2008
    Messages:
    9,824
    Likes Received:
    2,096
    Trophy Points:
    113

    2013 Seahawks D was elite, you stingy bastard.

    2006 Bears D was soooo close too. That group would've rode Grossman to a SB if not for the injuries. Harris (who had the most dominant season from a DT that I've ever seen besides for maybe Jenkins in his early Panther days) and Brown were back breakers ... Vasher, Peanut, Ogunleye, etc didn't help either. Healthy and they get lumped in with the Ravens and Bucs teams that won because of the D.



    Suh is a total enigma. We'll never know what 'could've been' because he was never put in a great position to succeed. There's a certain QB that's been lead down that same path.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
    Ben Had and royalshank like this.
  13. fansinceGWilson

    fansinceGWilson FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Mar 2016
    Messages:
    3,247
    Likes Received:
    942
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Maybe a little OT, but my concern is how the rotation works. I still remember Philbin's rotation regimen. If it were 4Q and two minutes left with the D HAVING to get a stop, Philbin stuck with the rotation. If that meant Wake on the bench, so be it. I like the idea of rotation, but there are times when rotation is secondary to the situation.
    I like the DL players and think they should do well. I like the idea of rotation. With a good LB corp, I like it even better. And I suspect Gase et al will not be slavish to the rotation. Keep players rested, but not at the expense of the situation.
     
    crumpdaddy likes this.
  14. lurking

    lurking FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2007
    Messages:
    6,943
    Likes Received:
    3,020
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think the thought process was for them to rotate every 4-5 plays
     
  15. DolfanDuBbZ~

    DolfanDuBbZ~ Avoid the 'Noid

    Joined:
    Nov 2008
    Messages:
    7,122
    Likes Received:
    538
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gotta love the talking points against Suh. Even though he played, was consistently double teamed and the right side of the DLINE seemed to be targeted a majority of the time against the opposing teams rush offense.

    It wasn't Suh fault others on defense were unable to win one on one matchups. That was a personnel problem like thinking trading for Philly castoffs were a good thing. Suh earned his keep, can you say the same of Maxwell and Alonso? How about the decline of Wake?

    Suh is gone, and I wish him the best. But the echo chamber seems to do this to every single FA brought in and sent packing.

    As for the rotation stuff...we will see. Attrition will play its role, and to date, no one on that DLINE was better than the man sent packing.
     
    JAKEIII likes this.
  16. Ray R

    Ray R FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    May 2017
    Messages:
    710
    Likes Received:
    1,127
    Trophy Points:
    93
    It was not Suhs' fault that teams were willing to pay so much. It was based on a problem that decision makers do not often face and because of that, often lose sight of the overall requirements of a team.

    No amount of extraordinary play from a single individual can compensate for good, solid play from a team of individuals along with some good game day planning. Take the Patriots for instance. Their team makes the player more than a player makes the team. They have done this successfully for over a decade.
     
    lurking likes this.
  17. The Ghost

    The Ghost Stamos

    Joined:
    Aug 2005
    Messages:
    2,754
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Trophy Points:
    113
    He's a sensational player, no doubt. Hall of fame caliber talent. We would've been even better if he had two of him let alone just the one. Count me in the group of people who thought we were going to keep him.

    Surely a 6-10 team releasing arguably their best player looks scary on the surface. In actuality the Dolphins were able to sure up virtually every unit on their team with the added cash as Suh essentially was earning the money of 4-5 starters.

    He was/is a mercenary. He's the CEO of Suh Inc. That's his team. Nothing wrong with that and there is a good chance it could pay off big for LAR who are getting him a closer to value salary. I'll root for him/them, Goff is fun to watch. He's a prototype.

    I'm more intrigued by the return or addition of Ryan Tannehill, Minkah Fitzpatrick, Robert Quinn, Frank Gore, Raekwon McMillan, Jerome Baker, Josh Sitton, Danny Amendola, Tony Lippett, Albert Wilson, Mike Gesicki and Kalen Ballage than I am concerned with the departure's of 93, 51 or 14.

    At the end of the day, team building is as much about finding the right combination of players as it is finding the most talented overall players.
     
    coalesce, lurking, Wishfishin and 2 others like this.
  18. dougb123

    dougb123 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2011
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    120
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I don't care all that much if we lack a lot of push from the DT's, All I want is for us to be able to stop them on 3rd and 2 or 3 and they run the ball...if we can't do that then we should of invested more into the position.
     
  19. NY8123

    NY8123 Sophisticated Redneck Administrator Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 2008
    Messages:
    22,588
    Likes Received:
    3,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Both were great but not Elite in my opinion.
     
    BobDole likes this.
  20. NY8123

    NY8123 Sophisticated Redneck Administrator Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 2008
    Messages:
    22,588
    Likes Received:
    3,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    which is why Suh has zero rings and Brady has 5. Love it or hate it the Pat's philosophy works. Pay a small core of guys slightly higher pay and then use average talent to win. It is frustrating that is hasn't blown up in their faces yet.
     
    Ray R likes this.
  21. NBP81

    NBP81 Yippi ka yay mother******! Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Jan 2008
    Messages:
    7,185
    Likes Received:
    2,678
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What about it? when do you think it'll happen?
     
    phinphan4life and kevphin like this.
  22. TheWozz

    TheWozz FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 2012
    Messages:
    939
    Likes Received:
    423
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I betcha that teams game planned to deal with Suh every week. He made them do things that they may not want to do because he was dominant. Unfortunately we had such weaknesses in defending the quick passing attack and matching up LBs in coverage (and I'd argue a lack of a true FS), that offenses could execute consistently regardless of Suh's play.

    And...these weaknesses were not somehow because we could not sign big $$ FAs due to Suh's salary. They were because we busted when we signed our LBs for the next decade with Ellerbe and Wheeler, vastly overrated (IMO) Kiko and not drafting (until, hopefully, McMillian) adequate players to address the weaknesses. Hopefully this has changes with McMillian, Baker and Fitz.

    I get that there was financial decision to move on from Suh and perhaps some frustration with his freelancing , but he was a helluva player who played an insane % of plays for a DT.
     
    lurking and Ray R like this.
  23. russdoe

    russdoe Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 2006
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    100
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I was hoping the Suh playing for Miami was the one playing against Miami when he was at Detroit. He completely crushed our crappy interior line over and over.
    I would have loved to see that happen to the Cheatriots
     
  24. phinfan40353

    phinfan40353 Scout Team

    Joined:
    Feb 2008
    Messages:
    1,736
    Likes Received:
    313
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Nail. Head.

    And btw, his pay reflected a QB in Miami. Not a Top 3 DT. He might be a specimen with unbelievable skillset, but DT is just one of those positions that should NEVER be overpaid. We were paying Suh more than a DE and we barely got the same sack numbers. In addition, our Run D was nothing impressive.

    I was always astonished how people ignored his real contribution to the D while marveling at how "great" he was. There was so much wrong with his salary that fans were forced into justifying it without scrutiny. No DT is worth that much money.
     
    lurking, NY8123 and Manning like this.
  25. Fin Fan in Cali

    Fin Fan in Cali Joanne Shaw Taylor Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Sep 2004
    Messages:
    35,244
    Likes Received:
    4,439
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Its says something about who we have in camp because they didn't sign Jonathan Hankins.
     
    paulrevere likes this.
  26. SF Dolphin Fan

    SF Dolphin Fan Seasoned Veteran

    Joined:
    May 2005
    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes Received:
    972
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It's the biggest gamble of the offseason. My biggest concern is the run defense. I think the defense is built to play with a lead, but I don't know if Miami will be able to stop the run.

    The good news is that the offense should be better so maybe the Dolphins will actually have some leads to play with.
     
    jnozag likes this.
  27. NoblePhin

    NoblePhin Starter Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Feb 2005
    Messages:
    2,228
    Likes Received:
    312
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I just hope its not like 2yrs ago with the false bravado of the guard position, only to waste a year and finally patch up the line.
     
  28. Kingdom Come

    Kingdom Come A True Fan

    Joined:
    Aug 2015
    Messages:
    1,091
    Likes Received:
    308
    Trophy Points:
    83
    There are a lot of genuine reasons to be cautiously optimistic about the direction this team is going but Akeem Spence certainly isn't one of them, and the interior of the DL is looking like a weak link that could break the chain completely.

    BR had him ranked 67th last year among DT's and I don't know what PFF had him at but it was probably worse.

    I do not understand why anyone has hope in this guy contributing. I would look to Taylor,Phillips and Godchaux improving as a little bit of light, that is realistic, but Spence has been in the league awhile, and he just isn't good. We may be better off hoping Jamiyus Pittman surprises and makes the 53.
     
  29. LANGER72

    LANGER72 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Nov 2006
    Messages:
    13,051
    Likes Received:
    295
    Trophy Points:
    83

    Fake an injury like the Pats and Jets do.
    It stops the clock.
     
    Csonked Out likes this.
  30. jnozag

    jnozag Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2010
    Messages:
    493
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    43
    H
    He'll tear it up in St Louis next to McDonald.
     
  31. jnozag

    jnozag Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2010
    Messages:
    493
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Good point. We couldn't stop the run when he was here. Not sure how swapping Suh out for Spence can help at all. Especially with our unproven lbs.
     
    SF Dolphin Fan likes this.
  32. jnozag

    jnozag Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2010
    Messages:
    493
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    43
    This only works because of Brady/Belicheck though. Very difficult to replicate.
     
  33. jnozag

    jnozag Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2010
    Messages:
    493
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Or it might say something about Hankins since he's still unsigned
     
    Fin Fan in Cali likes this.
  34. NoblePhin

    NoblePhin Starter Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Feb 2005
    Messages:
    2,228
    Likes Received:
    312
    Trophy Points:
    83
    If things go sour maybe trade a 4th-7th pick for another player
     
  35. dougb123

    dougb123 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2011
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    120
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Only thing it tells me is they moved the line problems from the offensive side to the defensive side, funny we have more quality defensive ends and pay them 6 times what we pay all the DT's - and pay someone who's not here anymore, more than we pay all the players here - not only this year but next year to, more than likely....the Mike Tannenbaum special

    DE Robert Quinn 11.5 mil, Andre Branch 10 mil, Cameron Wake 9.6 mil, William Hayes 4 mil - nice bargain, Charles Harris 2.5 mil - total 37.6 mil
    DT Akeem Spence 2.9 mil, Jordan Phillips 1.3 mil Gabe Wright 630k, Davon Godchaux 600k, Vincent Taylor 593k - total 6.0 mil

    Suh dead money cap hit 9.1 mil in 2018 - jumps to 14.5 in 2019 - we paid Suh over 20 mil a yr to play here after all said and done
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  36. Fin Fan in Cali

    Fin Fan in Cali Joanne Shaw Taylor Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Sep 2004
    Messages:
    35,244
    Likes Received:
    4,439
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Or his asking price is still too high.
     
    jnozag likes this.
  37. Eesti

    Eesti Rookie Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2008
    Messages:
    3,650
    Likes Received:
    839
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My question about this rotational theory is we may not know much until it's too late. It won't be tested until week 1. They are not going to get much rotational work in the preseason games....meaning it won't be 4 players rotating for 4 quarters.

    We face a darn good running team in week 1. The Titans with Derrick Henry and Dion Lewis and a pretty good line.

    Are any of these guys as good as Soliai and Starks? Or even Odrick and Starks? (let alone Suh) How much can big man, Jordan Phillips run to the ball before he is out of gas? He has struggled to get minimal reps up until now and NOW we are counting on him for 50% of the snaps? He was at 38% last year.

    How does this philosophy work when someone gets injured? Are any of the younger guys capable or are we going to be scrambling to find a quality DT on the open market?

    Probably my biggest positional question mark on the team.....

    Not saying it won't work but it's a gamble. Our only hope may be that Burke finally gets this defense playing TEAM football.
     
    fin415 likes this.
  38. BobDole

    BobDole Suck it Trebek Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 2008
    Messages:
    9,824
    Likes Received:
    2,096
    Trophy Points:
    113

    The Suh dead hit is around $22 mil. The signing was not smart (as I said at the time ... didn't go well) but to negotiate an extension so cap restricting that not only forces you to release the player, but was also so gargantuan that you can't even get anything in return for the guy ... is the definition of stupid and immediate grounds for firing.

    Seriously, name some stupider moves in the history of sports. Ditka giving up an entire draft for Ricky? Otis Smith's epic reign in Orlando ... re-absorbing that insane Hedo Turkoglu contract as the bow on top? The Grant Hill trade? Boston letting Babe go to the Yanks? The Herschel Walker trade?

    Tannenbaum is a parasite and the fins are playing host. How long does Ross continue to let this impostor leech off the fins? It's gone from beyond inept to reckless. Paying an extremely productive player $22 mil to NOT play here ... is this real life?!?
     
    phintim likes this.
  39. sunworshipper

    sunworshipper FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 2008
    Messages:
    345
    Likes Received:
    366
    Trophy Points:
    63
    It won't be quite 50% of snaps per DT, I think. They seem to want to use DEs inside on obvious passing downs: Hayes and even Harris. The roster seems to have more decent DEs than DTs at this point.
     
    Ray R likes this.
  40. Fin Fan in Cali

    Fin Fan in Cali Joanne Shaw Taylor Super Donator Finheaven VIP Donator

    Joined:
    Sep 2004
    Messages:
    35,244
    Likes Received:
    4,439
    Trophy Points:
    113

Share This Page