Alex Smith vs Ryan Tannehill

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by jbyrd850, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. superphin

    superphin close your eyes, see that? no your eyes are closed Finheaven VIP

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    You realize Tannehill was a QB in HS was recruited to play QB in college only played WR because he wanted to get on the field, never attended WR meetings, attended all QB meeting in college. Here are some QB's that had less pass attempts in College than Tannehill who had 774.


    Cam Newton 292 Att
    Aaron Rodgers 665 Att
    Alex Smith 587 Att
    Jim Kelly 676 Att
    Joe Montana 515 Att
    Carson Wentz 612 Att
    Brock Osweiler 680 Art
    Troy Aikman 694 Att
    Vinny Testaverde 674 passes Att
    Jameis Winston 851 Att (close enough)
     
  2. vcip

    vcip Starter Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I would take Andy Reid as the Fins HC in a second
     
  3. Vaark

    Vaark Nihil taurus crappus Finheaven VIP Donator

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    sigh.. the first 2 I checked I determined that your information is flawed- either by comission or omission.. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now

    Cam Newton.. Blinn CC could not find number of attempts/completions BUT considering:
    By fall, Newton was ready to play. He threw for 2,833 yards, rushed for 655, and accounted for 39 total touchdowns. The Buccaneers went 11-1, and won the NJCAA national championship

    Aaron Rodgers
    Butte JCC
    165-265 attempts, to lead Butte to a 10-1 record, NorCal Conf championship and No.2 ranking
    you could probably add another 200-300 attempts and 11 or 12 more games starting experience including championship ones for both.

    I decided to stop there, cuz that's enough to make the point I think should be obvious by now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  4. TannDaMan17

    TannDaMan17 Well-Known Member

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    The only reason Jacksonville is even still in the playoffs is because of their defense. Obviously QB's are important, but Jacksonville like certain teams do every single year prove you can go far without a top tier QB, hell the Broncos won it all a few years back because of their D so it isn't that rare at all. Tannehill is a much better QB than Bortles, but the 2017 Jags are a much better team than the 2017 Dolphins. If Miami can build a team similar to these Jags talent wise, Tannehill would be more than enough to win a SB, and that's all that matters. Miami has a lot of problems with its roster right now specifically at DE, LB, pass coverage in general, power back, back up QB, TE, offensive line, WR if we can't keep Juice to name a few. We need to get those fixed before we even think about getting a new starting QB, That's what Coughlin did in Jacksonville and they actually really do need a new QB, but they have their priorities straight and aren't obsessing over the position, which is why they are in the position they are today. If having a "superstar" QB is all that mattered in regards to winning the SB (The ONLY thing I care about), then why is Russel Wilson sitting at home today? He played so well this year he was considered an MVP candidate after the Eagles game, but without that elite defense, Seattle is just another team despite their "superstar" QB. Defense and an effective run game, the 2 things Seattle excelled in when they did win the SB, are far more important than what is perceived to be a "star" QB. Football men like Coughlin and Parcells know that, which is why they build from the ground up (aka trenches), which is what we should be doing as well...
     
  5. FinfanInBuffalo

    FinfanInBuffalo Perennial All-Pro Finheaven VIP Donator

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    (A) That is not what average means (I think you are looking for median)
    (B) Even if it did, 12th in the league of 32 teams would be well above the median since there are a minimum of 32 QBs. Add the QBs with partial seasons but enough throws to qualify and the number is higher than 32 making the median higher than 16.

    Slightly?

    Also, why use rank with QB rating but computed average with yards? He was ranked 9th in yards in 2015.
     
  6. hoops

    hoops exited stage left Hammered

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    seattles sitting at home because the defense didn't play up to it's all world standards down the stretch for the first time in I guess it's 6 years...due to attrition and age
     
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  7. FinfanInBuffalo

    FinfanInBuffalo Perennial All-Pro Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Little correction to you logic flaw. Just because people believe that QBs are not the sole reason for wins and losses, doesn't mean they believe they believe QBs are irrelevant.

    You present 2 possible positions and asked for a choice between the two. In reality the choices should be:

    1. Only the QB is relevant
    2. Only the players other than the QB is relevant
    3. It is a team game and both matter. (and which is the bigger factor on any one team varies based on the situation)
     
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  8. Kdawg954

    Kdawg954 Paint on My Hands from Paintin the Perfect Picture Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Hell the defense was a MASH unit, they had no running game (he lead the team in rushing with 586 yards . . . the next closest player had 240 yards) and the pass protection continues to be bottom level. If Russell Wilson gets sacked 40 times next year he will have the all time record for consecutive seasons of being sacked 40 times in a season (currently at 5 in a row).

    The dude still put up 34 touchdowns to only 11 INTs and had 4000 yards passing, 61.3% completion and a 95.4 QB rating. He was remarkable this year.

    But he also serves as the poster child for letting everybody know that you just cannot do it by yourself in this league and people wanting to get rid of Ryan Tannehill because "he can't do it by himself" just are not understanding that. Get this man a competent offensive line for 16 games, one that can produce an effective enough running game on a consistent basis and a defense that can be at least average . . . and see where the cards fall.

    Until it happens we will likely see Ryan continue to make gains but the team success may not match up to it . . . Ryan or pretty much any other QB you try to bring in here.
     
  9. The Goat

    The Goat Escape Goat Finheaven VIP

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    Link to the part where he didn't attend WR meetings? Because from my recollection, it wasn't that he attended one over the other. As I recall, he attended BOTH.

    Also, you might want to check your stats, because I'm pretty damned sure you're missing some JUCO stats. And attempts isn't really the point. Of all of those players...how many, exactly, switched from Wide Receiver (where he led the team one year) to Quarterback midway through their Junior season, then were drafted into the NFL 18 months later as a top 10 QB?
     
  10. Kdawg954

    Kdawg954 Paint on My Hands from Paintin the Perfect Picture Finheaven VIP Donator

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    https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story...t-quarterback-wide-receiver-experience-041712

     
  11. Vaark

    Vaark Nihil taurus crappus Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I've already hit him up on Rodgers and Newton - 11 & 12 games including championships... that was enough to get the lay of the land and I stopped at that point . But I was thinking that if Tannehill had played JUCO there's no way he'd have "overlooked" that aggregate.. Bottom Line: garbage in/garbage out
     
  12. The Goat

    The Goat Escape Goat Finheaven VIP

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  13. superphin

    superphin close your eyes, see that? no your eyes are closed Finheaven VIP

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    Honestly couldn't find any JC stats so i can't really add what i don't know.. But even if you generously add 300 more attempts to Cam thats still only 592 to Tannehill's 774. I would argue half a season playing against superior competition is worth more experience wise than 11 games against mostly scrubs.

    Why bring up yds, tds, team record and such. You realize all i said was here are some QB's with less pass attempts than Tannehill. Besides Rodgers if you want to estimate his JC attempts, my statement is accurate as Tannehill had more attempts than all those QB's.
     
  14. phins_4_ever

    phins_4_ever E12 FH Tailgate Gang Moderator Finheaven VIP

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    I figured unless the stats fit you.
    "Strong with you, the nyjunc force is"
     
  15. Vaark

    Vaark Nihil taurus crappus Finheaven VIP Donator

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    you're just being err, sillier than usual
     
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  16. superphin

    superphin close your eyes, see that? no your eyes are closed Finheaven VIP

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    Because QB rating doesn't go up with the more games you play. If you play say 13 games and have a 93.5 rating it probably won't change dramatically in 3 games. It's a bit different than hypothetically having 4030 yards in 13 games, one could assume you would at least maybe end up with 4500 if your avg fell off or 4960 if you maintained your avg.

    Also according to fox sports.com and football reference.com only 30 teams qualified for a league leader in QB rating so he was actually 12 out of 30. The Bears and the Browns did have any qualifying QB's.
     
  17. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Tannehill was playing much much better under Gase. Coaching matters. Alex Smith didn't take off until he had harbaugh. Passer rating also goes up in your 30s as history proves. Patience young grasshoppers. Give tannehill a full year under Gase
     
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  18. Vaark

    Vaark Nihil taurus crappus Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Ya know, I'm about to put you on /ignore. Your hatred of Tannehill is about as nonstop and unfiltered as the other guy's and what's funny is that you can post and convolute as many negative permutations as you can think up, and ignore or rationalize away the positive ones and it's still ****ing meaningless because your opinion and my opposing one are both worthless when it comes to effecting change or the status quo.

    You will not change one single mind! But continue to go bonkers over Tannehill; just realize that it means nothing to those who disagree with you which are still the majority last I looked. There will be no epiphany, nor capitulation. We get it, you hate Tannehill. We also get that you have some underlying need to heavy handedly foist your opinion on strangers who could give a ****. So knock yourself out. .. I'm tapping out of this circle jerk!
     
  19. superphin

    superphin close your eyes, see that? no your eyes are closed Finheaven VIP

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    OMG dude where in this exchange did i say anything negative about Tannehill if you can show me, I will log out right now and go away. I simply said he had 774 something pass attempts in reference to the gentleman who said he learned to play QB in the NFL.

    Don't lump me with other people when i have stated multiple times that he is the best QB we've had since Marino. I never said he sucked or that we should cut him or anything of the sort. My biggest issue is inconsistency not lack of talent.
     
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  20. FinfanInBuffalo

    FinfanInBuffalo Perennial All-Pro Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Still above average in both categories. especially when you take into account supporting casts.
     
  21. Kdawg954

    Kdawg954 Paint on My Hands from Paintin the Perfect Picture Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I get you man . . . despite the shortcomings around him, Ryan himself was a prety inconsistent player his first 69 games. He does have these "light switch" moments tho. His first one came in 2014 vs. the Raiders in London. Something about that game always stood out to me, it was like his ball placement became a strength when through his first 36 games I thought it was an area he needed noticeable improvement.

    A light switched on in that PIttsburgh game in 2016 and that was a different player and it was almost immediately noticeable. Some people will say "He was always that guy" . . . well I wouldn't go that far, but I saw a more confident player in the pocket in that game and it carried through all the way to the Arizona game in which he hurt the knee (certainly a few tough games mixed in but there was no decline in the player).

    That guy who came of age in the Pitt game and stayed through the rest of the season is a guy this Miami team can win a championship with. Now taking a few steps back, he's gotta be healthy, he has gotta continue that amazing work ethic he has always displayed and he has to continue to improve his overall game, like all great players should do . . . but I feel like we have a QB who can win big games for you . . . if you surround him with a capable supporting cast.

    Getting that feeling from a QB is not an easy task. Hell I argued on Ryan for several years but in the middle of those arguments I applauded the extension they gave him because you know what . . . finding a QB just ain't easy as it looks and truthfully we never gave him a great chance to have success since the day he stepped foot in the building. He showed enough to be a starter in this league at the time and that contract was starter money for a mid 20's guy.

    You return a healthy Ryan Tannehill and put a top 15, not a top 5, just a top 15 defense and a top 15 offensive line around him . . . with our current skills . . . we are legit battling New England for the AFC East in 2018 and a first round bye. That kid was no longer a kid you can shrink the field on . . . he was making defenses pay left and right in 2016 for doing it. It really saddens me that dude didn't get a chance to see that season out, he earned it and more.
     
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  22. FinfanInBuffalo

    FinfanInBuffalo Perennial All-Pro Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Well said. I agree that Tannehill showed flashes in 2013 and 2014. 2015 was a step back. 2016 (after the slow start) should have been the eye opener for all the naysayers. Obviously I have been in his corner since 2013 and I am the first to admit that I was projecting how he would play as he gained experience and a better supporting cast. His improved ball placement (IMO) was largely due to Lazor and I give Lazor credit for coaching up the mechanics and footwork. Gase continued the physical development that last season and significantly grew the mental development.

    I think it is important to state that the inconsistency early in a career (especially with significant changes around the QB) are the norm. Luck, Mariota, Carr, Winston, Flacco, Prescott, Newton have all experienced the same thing. The only QBs that are able to maintain consistency year to year are either superstars or have a stable team around them or both.
     
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  23. Phinatic8u

    Phinatic8u Adam ****ing Gase Finheaven VIP

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    The end of the year 2016 Ryan Tannehill was absolutely balling..

    I don't need stats to tell me anything, he was dropping dimes and making plays every game..If he can get back to that next year with an improved defense and a better OL then Miami will be fine, and yes in the playoffs..
     
  24. Phinatic8u

    Phinatic8u Adam ****ing Gase Finheaven VIP

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    Also outside of Russel Wilson every young qb or younger qb is inconsistent. See Cam Newton this year? How about last year? Carr this year was terrible..Mariotta was bad. Bortles sucks. Winston is a bust IMO, Prescott wasn't good either, Goff was good this year after one of the worst rookie campaigns ever.

    Wentz looks like a star, a bigger Aaron Rodgers..About every decade a star like that comes around..It happens..Some teams have never had a star qb...
     
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  25. psfign

    psfign Guest

    Name someone other than Brady that doesn't?
     
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  26. Kdawg954

    Kdawg954 Paint on My Hands from Paintin the Perfect Picture Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Brady has the biggest weapon in the game. When that weapon ain't there u lose to 6-10 teams like Miami.
     
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  27. Sarnics13

    Sarnics13 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I can appreciate what you're trying to say but to the regulars here your supposed benign approach is transparent. Every post is a detraction from anything positive about RT. Don't try to treat us like we're stupid. You don't need to log out but man up and just own it.
     
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  28. superphin

    superphin close your eyes, see that? no your eyes are closed Finheaven VIP

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    So because i have previously stated i didn't think Tannehill was the answer and gave my opinion on him, if I post anything about Tannehill even if i just say something simple like he threw a lot of passes in college, it will always be interpreted as some underlying dig? I can no longer post about Tannehill without other posters thinking im bashing him in some way?If next year he continues 2016 successful run and proves me wrong (which I hope he does) and i say Ryan Tannehill is a damn good QB...it will be taken as me having hidden motives?

    My supposed detraction has less to do with Tannehill and more to do with some posters who seemingly like to blame everyone BUT him. The hypocriticalness of saying the ineptitude of Philbin and lack of talent is what is holding back Tannehill yet no other player seems to get that excuse. If other players play bad, its solely their fault and not their surroundings. Example the run game is constantly been blamed as a culprit for Ryan's lack of success in terms of wins as if having the worst OL in the league only affects the QB. As if having a bad coach only affects Ryan and not the rest of the team.

    As tiring as it is for the Tannehill supporters to see threads/posts bashing Tannehill, i'm sure its equally as tiring for Tannehill haters to see threads/posts praising him. The supporters seemingly never have anything negative to say about him, while the haters seemingly never have anything positive to say about him. I personally don't see myself as a Tannehill hater because I want him to succeed even if I don't believe he has the goods nor do I believe him to be a bad QB. I'd like to believe im impartial but I also like to believe I'm amazing in bed so what do i know. Haters probably rank him to low and supporters probably rank him too high. To me the only way to prove his worth is to have consistently good seasons of good play for the majority of the season, not just a 7 or 8 game stretch.

    I come here to discuss the Dolphins and if someone disagrees with my opinion i don't mind a little back and forth. I like to believe I'm reasonably cordial besides that one thread sorry "finfaninbuffalo."

    Thats my speech and I am done talking about Ryan Tannehill until the 2018 season starts. May he throw 56 TD's and bring the record back, this is why I have I only have 535 post since 2003. #All opinions matter #God Bless America.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  29. Tannchise

    Tannchise Banned Hammered

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    Ok. So lets assume that. The ineptitude of the player, fo and coach to have him out there still And to not have a plan as backup, is enough to tell me the level of incompetency in the team
     
  30. Spiff

    Spiff Starter Finheaven VIP Donator

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    And that's true, it affects the entire team. However, I've read too often here that you just have to change the QB and all the problems will go away. That's just not the case and I'm pretty sure there's still some people who believe that.
     
  31. Yessir

    Yessir Dolfan for Life Donator

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    There's no singular position in the sport that is more important or more impactful than the quarterback. That is a fact. Trying to get by with a guy who is merely "OKAY" is not a recipe for sustained excellence.
     
  32. FinfanInBuffalo

    FinfanInBuffalo Perennial All-Pro Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Did you happen to notice that Tannehill is the only individual player you mentioned? Not Lamar Miller. In fact, in the past people have blamed the problems with the running game on the OL. Posts blaming Lamar Miller for the running game problems were nearly non-existent. That is the whole point.

    Another example, the run defense. There are no posts blaming Suh for the problems in the run defense. None. No posts blaming Cam Wake or Reshad Jones for the pass defense. For every other player on the team (except Tannehill) posters are able to look beyond team performance and recognize that not every player should be equally implicated in the poor performance of the unit.
     
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  33. FinfanInBuffalo

    FinfanInBuffalo Perennial All-Pro Finheaven VIP Donator

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    There are people who believe it and people who NEED to believe it. Not sure which is worse.
     
  34. The Goat

    The Goat Escape Goat Finheaven VIP

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    Stopped reading after "Let's assume that. The ineptitude of the player...."
     
  35. Spiff

    Spiff Starter Finheaven VIP Donator

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    I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing the notion that you only need to get the QB position right and all other issues will be magically fixed. There's still pre-snap penalties, missed tackles, missed assignments, drops, fumbles, etc.

    If these issues became non-existent with the "right" QB, the Miami Dolphins would have won at least one Superbowl between 1983 and 1999, the New Orleans Saints would have been in the playoffs more than once between 2012 and 2016, the Green Bay Packers would have more than one Superbowl appearance in the last 10 years. What I'm saying is that even if you replace Ryan Tannehill with Aaron Rodgers, Mike Pouncey et al are still the same players, will still commit the same dumb penalties, the defense will still not be able to cover a TE, the kick returner will still bring it out of the endzone 8 yards deep.

    Ryan Tannehill is good enough to win a Superbowl, I have zero doubts about that. But like any other QB in the history of the game, he cannot do it with the offensive line and defense being 28th in the league or worse.
     
  36. The Goat

    The Goat Escape Goat Finheaven VIP

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    Exactly this.

    I'm (obviously) a Tannehill supporter, but I still would not be averse to taking a QB in the first, even though there are definitely more than one "high ceiling/low floor" QB there. It's a gamble, but might be one worth taking.

    I think one should *definitely* be selected in the first 3-4 rounds, but would have difficulty passing on Smith if he's there at 11.
     
  37. Phinatic8u

    Phinatic8u Adam ****ing Gase Finheaven VIP

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    Russel Wilson had one of the most impressive seasons a qb has ever had in terms of total team impact.

    He didn’t make the playoffs.

    This notion that a qb changes everything is the dumbest argument a DOLPHINS FAN CAN MAKE. Best qb ever didn’t win a ring, because he had zero help. Yet people expect those kind of guys all the time.

    This fanbase is ****ing stupid.
     
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  38. Phinatic8u

    Phinatic8u Adam ****ing Gase Finheaven VIP

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    No qb this year is worth a top 10 pick.

    I wouldn’t take any of them, outside of Rosen, in the top 15.
     
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  39. FinfanInBuffalo

    FinfanInBuffalo Perennial All-Pro Finheaven VIP Donator

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    This is the thing that the "draft a QB" crowd doesn't understand. Cleveland as been sucked into the "must draft a QB in the first round" trap and as a result drafted Quinn, Weeden, and Manziel. They also decided that 2nd and 3rd round picks should be used and got Kizer, Kessler, McCoy, and Frye.

    They over drafted all of those players because the QB is the most important position. As a result, they not only lose games, and waste time with sub standard QBs, they are missing out on better players.

    Why do some fans want to follow the Cleveland model?
     
  40. superphin

    superphin close your eyes, see that? no your eyes are closed Finheaven VIP

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    I think Clevelands lack of success has less to do with them using 7 picks on QB's in the last 112 picks. And more to do with them just drafting really bad with the other 105 picks.
     

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